quote:Evanston-Skokie School District 65 will ignore new legislation mandating a moment of silence in Illinois public schools after trying unsuccessfully to seek a waiver that would free the district from following the law, board members said.
After discussing it Monday night, five of the school board's seven members agreed the board should not force teachers in the district's 16 elementary and middle schools to observe the law, they said.
"We have no intention of either prohibiting or forcing compliance," said board member Katie Bailey.
It's nice to see a school board stand up for what's right, rather than just complying with a bad law. IMHO
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Does the law mandate a daily moment of silence? If so then I side with those concerned that it is just a way of sneaking prayer back into schools (just like Intelligent Design was a way of sneaking creationism back into schools). The justification that supporters of the law use, that a daily moment of silence would reduce school violence, sends my BS detector off the charts.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Having had a moment of silence in school as a kid, I never thought it was to pray. The teachers always seemed to use it to go over their notes. I figured the moment of silence was just a way to get us all to shut up, kinda like the quiet game that seemed to be my mom's favorite game of all time. So, I am pro-moment of silence.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by scholar: Having had a moment of silence in school as a kid, I never thought it was to pray. The teachers always seemed to use it to go over their notes. I figured the moment of silence was just a way to get us all to shut up, kinda like the quiet game that seemed to be my mom's favorite game of all time. So, I am pro-moment of silence.
As an idea, it's fine. If a teacher decides to say "Kids, we're just going to have a few minutes every morning to be quiet and get ready for the day ahead", that would be fine. But the fact that they made a law to have this state mandated suggests that they may have other motives.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:...keep boisterous students calm and give students a chance to reflect before the school day.
Kids "reflect" at that age?
If I had to do it, I can't help but imagine I'd spend the whole silent time thinking "man, this is stupid."
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I don't always agree with OSC's political arguments, but I thought he made an amazingly good one about being against prayer in schools
The main point was that you can't single out one religion's version of prayer, so you'd have to do a watered down version that makes no one happy, even for those whose religions it most resembled. Instead, people who want kids at school to pray (really, their kids), should pray as a family because it will mean more to their children. Kids learn the pledge of allegiance before the definitions of the big words, and to me, the pledge feels empty.
Anyway, it didn't occur to me that a moment of silence is praying, but that makes sense. I usually just thought about nothing since the moment of silence came after the pledge. But, given that it's a moment of silence, the prayers stay in the heads of the children who make them- you're not forcing anyone to say anything.
And as an atheist, I have no problem standing there while other people say prayers to themselves, because they're not making me pray.
Is the pledge mandated by law?
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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When I was in high school, Georgia instituted a moment of silence law that was obviously designed for prayer. A handful of students prayed ostentatiously; most people sat and stared (or slept). I organized my notebooks and got ready for class. I dislike the intent of those laws, but I think by and large they probably tend to be fairly unsuccessful.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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For crying out loud, people who believe in praying frequently send their kids to school as well, I don't see how providing a moment of silence is anything close to a sneaky way to get prayer back in school. The reason school mandated praying was ruled unconstitutional was because it was mandated, not because praying is illegal in a school. A mandated moment of silence to me makes perfect sence for appeasing those who think prayer is important, as well as being beneficial to the students and parents who do not.
Why don't we just get rid of nap time in kindergarten because we know that's really just a secret plot by the buddhists to introduce extended meditation.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I don't see the problem with a moment of silence. There are plenty of people out there who may want to take a moment for prayer. Others are not forced to pray with them but must allow them to do so without interruption. For those who wish not to pray, they can take that moment to do as Megan did and "organize her notebook and get ready for class."
I'll probably get flammed for it, but I don't see the harm.
Posts: 1766 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:I'll probably get flammed for it, but I don't see the harm.
Why do you think you'll get flamed for this? That doesn't seem at all reasonable to me.
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On the moment of silence issue, I'm not sure why people think that this is necessary. Can kids not pray at basically any point during the day? Mandating an official communal time for this seems unecessary.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz: Is the pledge mandated by law?
I don't think there is a national policy on the pledge. In New Jersey I believe that no student may be forced to stand for the pledge. All students, however, have to be respectful during the pledge (that may be district policy, not state policy). At my high school the pledge is recited over the loud speaker so nobody says it anyways (we just stand up).
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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And if someone wished to take a few moments to play on their Gameboy, would a state mandate to allow them to do so be a problem? Everybody else can just take out their notebooks, or whatever.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: For crying out loud, people who believe in praying frequently send their kids to school as well, I don't see how providing a moment of silence is anything close to a sneaky way to get prayer back in school. The reason school mandated praying was ruled unconstitutional was because it was mandated, not because praying is illegal in a school. A mandated moment of silence to me makes perfect sence for appeasing those who think prayer is important, as well as being beneficial to the students and parents who do not.
Why don't we just get rid of nap time in kindergarten because we know that's really just a secret plot by the buddhists to introduce extended meditation.
The issue, BB, is the government mandated part. They're mandating a moment of silence in which our students could be learning.
If the kids want to pray, or take a moment to be quiet, they can certainly do so as long as they don't disturb the class (or as long as the kid doesn't take a moment of silence right after being asked a question by the teacher, haha).
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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In other words, "Teachers here is more that you must do. Teachers here is less time to actually do it in. Now don't bother us, we are negotiating with your _______ (fill in the blank with your own perjorative. One Dept of Ed leader from early in the present administration called it Terrorist) union that demands you get paid more money for some silly reasons."
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BlackBlade, how would you feel if the government mandated an hour long "moment of silence" or perhaps several of them? Muslims, for example, pray five times a day, at least a couple would fall during the school day.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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We had a daily moment of silence in elementary school. Generally we either did a little bit of homework from the previous day, or read, or some kids took a little mini-nap, it really didn't matter so long as you were quiet.
I don't think it really matters. I'm sure the teacher appreciated the little calm in the storm, but I highly doubt it served any serous function for the students. Anyone who was plotting violence against his or her fellow students just got a little more planning time every morning.
I have no problem with a moment of silence, but I think it's goofy and stupid that they made a law requiring it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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If the moment of silence is school mandated, it is easier to enforce (cause a moment of silence is silly to a student, so a teacher doing it himself/herself would have difficulties). If it is 15 seconds, it is had to claim that much time is being wasted, esp if it really does shut the kids up. Since discipline issues are the number one time waster, if it decreased discipline problems, it would overall add more class time. Also, you can't have it be too long because then students will start getting antsy and the effect will be ruined. While they might be trying to allow prayer in the school, I think the discipline aspect should be explored before a judement is made. If it turns out to actually help calm the little monsters, then I would not object to it being a law. Students will find it silly so the concept needs support from the higher powers to work. I really want some one to do a study on this now. Instinctively, I think it would help discipline, but I could be wrong.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: BlackBlade, how would you feel if the government mandated an hour long "moment of silence" or perhaps several of them? Muslims, for example, pray five times a day, at least a couple would fall during the school day.
There is excess when it comes to any principle. The problem I have with students just being able to pray whenever they want to is that that time does not always exist. When a parent teaches their child to pray often they might say before lunch at school, or say before recess or perhaps before a major test. Who is going to help in the parent's wishes? An elementary student clearly would be likely apt to forget to pray in the absence of reminders. Students in elementary school do not often have time to themselves, all their activities and the time with which they have to do them are decided for them.
Besides that, moments of silence are good IMO. It's good to just stop the hectic schedule of the day and give kids time to take a breather and look over their materials. Nobody is asking for an hour. If there was somebody asking for an hour, deal with it when that comes up.
If there was a Muslim student in a class, I would ask the teachers to provide a simple room and be aware of a Muslim child's prayer schedule, as well as indicating where East is.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:The issue, BB, is the government mandated part. They're mandating a moment of silence in which our students could be learning.
If this is the essence of your complaint, I'm surprised you support such blatant disregard of the law by a public official for this reason.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I think that there should be some "free" time built into the schedule. Lunch, recess, study hall and so forth. I don't think that having a school wide "moment" will accomplish that. And it certainly is unconstitutional if the purpose is to "remind" students to pray. Parents may want their kids to brush their teeth after lunch, who is going to help in those parents' wishes?
So for the Muslim students...are we going to have school-wide moments of silence while they pray?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I don't even recall having moments of silence in school, and I went to school in the south. We said the pledge and sang, "My Country, 'Tis of Thee".
???
edit: That said, had I had them I highly doubt I would have prayed. I did that in the biblically-suggested place: at home in my room.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:The issue, BB, is the government mandated part. They're mandating a moment of silence in which our students could be learning.
If this is the essence of your complaint, I'm surprised you support such blatant disregard of the law by a public official for this reason.
I support the blatant disregard of any laws that I think are wrong or go against other more important laws or freedoms.
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quote:I'll probably get flammed for it, but I don't see the harm.
Why do you think you'll get flamed for this? That doesn't seem at all reasonable to me.
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On the moment of silence issue, I'm not sure why people think that this is necessary. Can kids not pray at basically any point during the day? Mandating an official communal time for this seems unecessary.
I have been flamed in the past for a conservative view. For the most part, I stay away from political and religious threads. I don't like people looking down on me for my beliefs. I don't look down on others for theirs.
Posts: 1766 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:The issue, BB, is the government mandated part. They're mandating a moment of silence in which our students could be learning.
If this is the essence of your complaint, I'm surprised you support such blatant disregard of the law by a public official for this reason.
I support the blatant disregard of any laws that I think are wrong or go against other more important laws or freedoms.
Then there's more to this issue than you stated in the post that I quoted, because that doesn't invoke anything about freedom or other laws.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I think that there should be some "free" time built into the schedule. Lunch, recess, study hall and so forth. I don't think that having a school wide "moment" will accomplish that. And it certainly is unconstitutional if the purpose is to "remind" students to pray. Parents may want their kids to brush their teeth after lunch, who is going to help in those parents' wishes?
So for the Muslim students...are we going to have school-wide moments of silence while they pray?
If enough parents are that concerned about teeth hygiene I think the school should create some time for them to brush their teeth. It's up to each state.
There is nothing unconstitutional about teachers observing a standard moment of silence/reflection and saying, "Those who wish to pray, or ponder, or just rest themselves can take advantage of this time."
If a school decides they don't want a moment of silence then let democracy decide it.
If the state government passes a mandated moment of silence I don't think that in this instance it behooves a teacher to refuse to follow the law. If they genuinely feel that it's unconstitutional and immoral to enforce such a mandate they can quit their jobs or challenge it in court. Teachers who ignore a legislative bill that was passed by the state legislature should be prosecuted for refusing to do as they are instructed.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Or there is less to this issue than he stated in his post.
I was addressing what he said.
quote:That's all you really need. Why on earth should a moment of silence be mandated by law?
Why on earth should that be considered unconstitutional, though? And if it's not unconstitutional, why should an elected or appointed official charged with carrying out state educational policy gainsay it?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Why on earth should that be considered unconstitutional, though? And if it's not unconstitutional, why should an elected or appointed official charged with carrying out state educational policy gainsay it?
It doesn't need to be unconstitutional in order to impinge on freedom. If the state mandated that students jump on their left leg for 15 seconds, that impinges on a freedom. And it's completely pointless, other than to force students to obey.
The school has stated that they believe that the law is motivated by the desire to introduce prayer into the classroom. I don't know the players, but if they have evidence to lead them to that conclusion, then the refusal to obey the law forces the state to provide justification for the law (unless the state ignores the school).
If there is no justification for it, but it's not unconstitutional, is it reasonable for a legislative body to pass laws that impinge on freedom merely on a whim?
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quote:If there is no justification for it, but it's not unconstitutional, is it reasonable for a legislative body to pass laws that impinge on freedom merely on a whim?
It might not be reasonable. I haven't at all argued that it is.
But it is official state educational policy (if the article is accurate). And if it's constitutional, then an elected or appointed official whose duty it is to carry out such policy should carry it out.
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Even if it is inspired by religious people, why does that matter? Keep in mind that the amount of time being asked for is 0.1% of the school day (based on the moment being 30 seconds and 6 hours of instruction time). The act itself does nothing to establish religion or show favor to any religion. If the majority of parents wanted one minute for their children to brush their teeth, would it be wrong to pass a law telling teacher to provide one minute for teeth brushing?
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I don't think constitutionality is even an issue here. I didn't read the exact wording of the law, but I'm guessing it's simply a moment of silence, which I think impinges on no one's freedom. You could argue that school in general, especially mandated schooling, is an impinging of freedom. That opens an insanely big can of worms. I think it's a stupid rule.
I think this is a case where such a decision should be made locally at a schoolboard, that is specifically what they are there for, to decide matters like this. This shouldn't have been decided at the state level.
But our system does work, and I think a candidate running for a state senate or house seat in the next election could make an issue of this and the voters should accordingly vote, and then this could be overturned, or if enough people voice their concerns, it could be overturned sooner.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Honestly, the only emotion I feel towards this is confusion. I don't care much one about it, I just think to myself "why? Was there some crisis in our schools until this moment, that has now been resolved with this wonderful, necessary law?"
Assuming the motives behind it have nothing to do with prayer, I don't see the purpose to spend time introducing new legislature over this. Kids don't need a 15 second break in the day; recess and lunch exist for a reason.
Maybe I'm crazy, I just don't...see why this even made it to the state level Posts: 349 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:It might not be reasonable. I haven't at all argued that it is.
No, you haven't. That's why I asked.
quote:an elected or appointed official whose duty it is to carry out such policy should carry it out.
This comes down to your sense of respect for law. I don't share it to the same extent. This country was founded by people who refused to carry out certain laws.
quote:You could argue that school in general, especially mandated schooling, is an impinging of freedom.
It is, but it's a well justified impingment. And parents do have other options, such as home schooling.
quote:I think this is a case where such a decision should be made locally at a schoolboard
I think it's a decision that should be made by the teacher. The only reason given by the supporters is that it could help reduce behavior problems in the school. That's certainly no justification if the teachers aren't having behavior problems. Teachers generally have their own beginning of class rituals, chores, writing down the homework, going over last night's homework, etc. designed to get the class to settle down and focused. What works for one teacher is often completely different from another teacher. Mandating this moment of silence may work wonderfully for some teachers, and cause havoc for others. But if it works, the teacher can implement it themselves. There's no reason for the state to impose it.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Again: Suppose the state mandated a Gameboy moment. Would that be all right? And how is it any different?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Again: Suppose the state mandated a Gameboy moment. Would that be all right? And how is it any different?
If the state legislature voted it in, it would be a reflection of the will of the people who voted those people into office. If people didn't like it they can pressure their representatives to change it.
If you send your child to a government run school you accept that the government to an extent controls how that school runs. If for whatever reason the government passed a law requiring students to play on their gameboys for an hour everyday, you can try to get it repealed in the legislature, or you can remove your child from a public school and enroll them in a private school that more closely fits what you want in a school system. You can also home school them, an increasingly popular option nowadays.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Wait a minute, do people expect to be taken seriously when they object to this on the grounds that it's "taking up time when our kids could be learning"?
Give me a freakin' break, guys. It's less than a bloody half a minute. Once. There are many other reasonable objections to a government-mandated moment-of-silence requirement. That is not remotely one of them.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rakeesh, I may be missing something but the only person's comment who comes close to making the "taking up time when our kids could be learning" argument is Dan_raven's and I don't think thats the point he was trying to make.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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All through school we had a moment of silence. After the pledge, whoever was leading assembly (in elementary school) or was on the loudspeaker (in middle and high school) would say, "Please join me in a moment of silent meditation." It would last somewhere between 15 and 30 seconds. I don't remember anyone objecting to that, no did it seem out of place at all. (This is in a liberal town in a liberal state (Connecticut) and I'm not a religious person.) Occasionally there would be a suggestion for something/someone to think about, if someone had recently passed away or if it was an important anniversary or date, but that was maybe two or three times a year.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Wait a minute, do people expect to be taken seriously when they object to this on the grounds that it's "taking up time when our kids could be learning"?
Give me a freakin' break, guys. It's less than a bloody half a minute. Once. There are many other reasonable objections to a government-mandated moment-of-silence requirement. That is not remotely one of them.
I didn't argue it, but I certainly made the comment.
First of all, last I checked the law didn't define what a 'moment' was.
Secondly, if it's so insignificant, why have it at all?
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Secondly, if it's so insignificant, why have it at all?
If it's so insignifigant, why worry about it so much? Or do you get equally frustrated when there are laws on the books about not letting cows chew cud on Sundays?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Secondly, if it's so insignificant, why have it at all?
If it's so insignifigant, why worry about it so much? Or do you get equally frustrated when there are laws on the books about not letting cows chew cud on Sundays?
Because if it's so insignificant, but the government is making a law about it, it occurs to me that it's actually not insignificant to them.
If the government was making laws about cows chewing cud, then the government is worried about cows chewing cud for some reason. And if they just made the law for no real reason, just because, then they should be impeached for wasting their time and tax-payer money on creating stupid, insignificant laws.
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If you believed that playing a Gameboy for 30 seconds a day at the start of class would make your kid learn better, wouldn't you want to insure that you child had that opportunity? Would you want to have to argue every time your student got a new teacher for this?
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Secondly, if it's so insignificant, why have it at all?
I don't think it is insignificant to the parents. It seems like a simple and sensible compromise to me:
Some parents want their kids to pray in school, and know that they probably won't unless explicitly directed to. And other parents don't want their kids to pray in school. Having a moment of silence reminds those kids who want to pray to do so, while not forcing other kids to join in. It makes everyone happy; what is wrong with this compromise? Surely it's not the 15 seconds of time it takes up....
In all seriousness, schools are charged with the well-being of the child as a whole. That's a tricky task when many parents include character and spirituality as part of their child's well-being, but disagree on what health in those areas consists of. Giving the kids an opportunity to decide for themselves how/whether to promote their spiritual well-being seems like an effective compromise.
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If the kids have to be reminded to pray then it clearly isn't that important to them anyways. Even if it is, it is certainly not the school's job to remind them about it.
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