posted
So. If I were a God, and I had a heaven for the good kids and a hell for the bad ones, I would need to decide whether those kiddies went to heaven or to hell. It would seem to me that this deciding would be done on a case by case study of each person's qualities and such. I can imagine allowing someone who claimed that there was a different god than me into Heaven if he lived a good life, was kind and upheld virtues that I felt significant. In short, I don't think whether each particular person did exactly what I told them to do would be what gets them into heaven, but living a good life and being a positive force in society would get them in.
So. Couldn't an atheist like myself, upon my death, be judged to have been a pretty upstanding fellow, and so ushered into Heaven alongside the good religious guys?
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posted
What if the religious aren't good? What if it's not our "goodness" as to why a person would get into heaven.
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quote:Originally posted by Starsnuffer: So. Couldn't an atheist like myself, upon my death, be judged to have been a pretty upstanding fellow, and so ushered into Heaven alongside the good religious guys?
I see no reason why not. It's God's judgment that matters in the end, not mine. If He wanted you in Heaven, you'd be there.
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posted
I hope so. It's hard for me to fit the idea of a "Good God" with a being who could condemn virtuous people for doing the best they could with the information they had available and their own reason.
I tend to hope that salvation is available to everyone.
("So. Still an atheist?"
"Uh..." (looks around) "No."
"Glad we got that settled. Come have a look around.")
I'm wouldn't be surprised if such a view didn't seem frivilous, if not downright blasphemous, to some.
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posted
That's an interesting question, and not one faced by theists. Afterall, if there is nothing after death you won't be disappointed, you just won't *be*.
But don't worry, if you're a Jatraquero, I'll save a horn of mead, a haunch of venison and a bench by the fire in Valhalla.
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posted
Sorry, my fellow atheist, you can't have it both ways. If you don't accept deity X as your saviour, you can't join X in His/Her heaven. You’ll send yourself automatically to the respective Hell.
By many definitions, Hell is not a “place” per se, it’s actually a state of being as related to some deity. Namely, your wilful separation from the deity. If you’re rejecting one deity, that deity won’t incorporate you, against your wish, in His/Her Heaven. Most of the deities do respect your free will, or so they say.
So, your question does come with some prejudice, that is, that there is ONE Heaven and ONE Hell, and that maybe different deities try to lure you in one place or the other, but the Heaven is still the same. It’s not the case, as far as I had the pleasure to learn from my theist friends.
The conclusion is simple: whatever you do, theist or atheist, you’ll go to some “hell” as defined by each of the deities you don’t believe in.
As an atheist you should at least be happy that you don’t believe in none of those “hells”.
posted
I think a lot of atheists have a better chance at a positive afterlife then a lot of religious people I have met.
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posted
Sterling, your phrasing is somewhat whimsical, but, at the core, I tend to agree with your scenario.
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So as I grew up I was told stories about my missing dad, and given a book of things he was said to have done and said. Many of the stories are excellent, instructive, and beautiful. Many of the stories are odd, or dated with old prejudices and inaccurate facts, or even contradictory. My brother and I are raised by several different people in succession, all of whom have different interpretations of what the book means and what our missing dad wanted us to do. All of them agree that we have to adhere to their teachings of dad's book or he won't be happy with us when he comes back.
My brother follows the book devoutly in the hopes of future reward and out of fear of future rejection. I decide the heck with the book, since I don't know if my missing dad even wrote it and some of those teachers are whack jobs. So I take the lessons I learned, venture out into the world and try to do good anyway, assuming my possibly-mythical dad is gone for good.
If dad ever did come back, would he be more impressed by the son who followed his a specific interpretation of his teachings from fear, or the son who finds his own meaning from those teachings and from others and becomes a good person for the sake of doing good?
[end overly-general metaphor]
It's unfair, I know. I don't think all Christians are Christians out of fear or hope of reward.
But this question spoke directly to that issue, and a god who treats eternal reward as some sort of VIP room, exclusive to the members of a special club who all know the right code words to get in, is not a god I would willingly follow anyway.
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posted
I'm sure an atheist could go TO heaven, but would have to abandon that aspect of their belief system in order to enter.
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posted
yea, I don't think that you could be an atheist and go to heaven. By that time I don't think you would be an atheist anymore.
Then again, I come from a religion where Heaven and Hell have problematic definitions. They might go to a Heaven, but that doesn't mean they would have Exaltation. If that last statement makes you scratch your head, maybe someone else will explain the concept.
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posted
Depends on the heaven too. We may have a polytheist heaven, in which case a monotheist may have to abandon that part of their belief system to enter. We may have a reincarnation system in which case it might not even matter what one believes. We may even have a heaven which exists totally independently from any god. There is even a small chance that we all don't get to enter heaven because it turns out we all didn't eat enough pasta or whatever is required for the Spagetti Flying Monster.
In short, it all depends Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Maybe this should be in it's own thread, but:
Why would God make atheists in the first place? I mean, according to Ecclesiastes, there is a time and a purpose for everything. What is the purpose for non-belief?
(I have my own answer, but I'll hold it in abeyance for now.)
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posted
Well I wouldn't still claim to be an atheist if after dieing god came over to me, or one of his secretaries/underlings, and told me that he thought I'd done such a super job in life that he's offering me to go to heaven. I would obviously say sure, god, thanks for accepting me, I guess it was pretty silly for me to not believe in you all this time, but I guess I turned out alright even without saying thanks all the time.
It just seems like the only fundamental difference between me and a religious person is that I don't believe in god,and they do. I behave in a similar way and I'm a good person.
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Maybe this should be in it's own thread, but:
Why would God make atheists in the first place? I mean, according to Ecclesiastes, there is a time and a purpose for everything. What is the purpose for non-belief?
(I have my own answer, but I'll hold it in abeyance for now.)
If God put belief in every person, it would pretty much toss that whole "free will" thing out the window. My belief is that every culture was given a religion to suit their needs. If someone can live a moral life without belief in God, well I'm pretty sure He has many other people he is worried about.
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Don't assume we do have free will. At best we have partial control, and vastly less even of that of our less conscious but still equally relevent aspects.
Not to rain on the rest of your post, of course. Just one of those fun quibbles, you know?
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Why would God make atheists in the first place? I mean, according to Ecclesiastes, there is a time and a purpose for everything. What is the purpose for non-belief?
Most people look at this passage in Ecclesiastes as to mean that God creates everything for a purpose. "There is a time to live and a time to die" and they take it to mean that God has a set time period when you are going to die.
It's really kind of a cynical piece of the Bible. It's talking about the futility of life without God- you'll live, you'll die, you'll experience a few different situations in life and that's it. And when you die that's it- everything is futile.
The writer is being somewhat sarcastic and cynical- it's saying that without God everything is futile.
God doesn't make "atheists" per se. He simply creates humans in imago dei (in the image of God- which I believe means that we are sentient and have free will) and with that free will we can believe what we want.
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Don't assume we do have free will. At best we have partial control, and vastly less even of that of our less conscious but still equally relevent aspects.
Not to rain on the rest of your post, of course. Just one of those fun quibbles, you know?
I think I would like to see you expand on that a little. There is way too much evil in this world for God to have any control in our actions.
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If someone can live a moral life without belief in God, well I'm pretty sure He has many other people he is worried about.
I don't think God judges our morality in the way that we do. If He is a perfectly holy God then any act of disobedience towards His will is immoral and by its very nature evil. Since God is incapable of sinning and cannot be tempted compared to us is infinitely better. It's not really based on a curve. 50% get into hell and the better half get into heaven.
It's more based on the idea that we have a personal relationship with God and using that relationship we try and do God's will in our lives.
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If someone can live a moral life without belief in God, well I'm pretty sure He has many other people he is worried about.
I don't think God judges our morality in the way that we do. If He is a perfectly holy God then any act of disobedience towards His will is immoral and by its very nature evil. Since God is incapable of sinning and cannot be tempted compared to us is infinitely better. It's not really based on a curve. 50% get into hell and the better half get into heaven.
It's more based on the idea that we have a personal relationship with God and using that relationship we try and do God's will in our lives.
Just to clarify, is it part of your belief system that all sins carry the same amount of weight?
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posted
I think that this thread is a good place to use one of my facebook quotes.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." - Marcus Aurelius
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posted
Speaking as a Christian, I believe that God would do everything in His power to get anyone, atheists included, into heaven. So, either atheists do go to heaven, or God's power is limited in some way that prevents Him from letting them get into heaven.
That could be a logical limitation, of the sort like "God can't create a rock that God can't lift". For instance, if heaven simply is the state of believing in God, then it is logically impossible for someone who doesn't believe in God to be in heaven.
I really don't know what heaven is, or what limitations God faces, so I can't answer those questions. But my belief is that God's intends for all people to go to heaven, as far as possible.
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quote:For instance, if heaven simply is the state of believing in God, then it is logically impossible for someone who doesn't believe in God to be in heaven.
That's already been covered. All God has to do is make the atheist believe in God.
quote:I really don't know what heaven is, or what limitations God faces, so I can't answer those questions.
Nor can anyone truly answer any questions about God at all. That's a problem with the nebulous and ambiguous God of the Bible. If Thor appeared and used his hammer to created thunder, or if Zeus threw a couple of lightning bolts for my amusement, I would have a difficult time disbelieving in either of them.
But (if the bible is true) the God of the Bible has demonstrated that he has the ability to interact with humans directly, yet he refuses to do so for more than one or a few people at a time. The common argument for this is that it creates a need for faith, and that somehow faith is superior to knowledge.
Ok. But this implies that there is a reason why doubt is necessary, because otherwise faith would be meaningless. Atheism provides contrast. But still: Why? Why not simply appear to all of us in some minor way, once in our lives that we can't contest? Or (to steal a line from Jesus Christ Superstar) why doesn't God have access to mass communication, especially in the modern world?
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posted
My two cents: Heaven is being in a place where you are happy with who you are and what you're doing. If you have been a good (righteous) person you will have happiness and joy. If you were a bad (evil) person, you would still have some measure of happiness, though perhaps not to the extent that others would have. Even an athiest would be in heaven, experiencing happiness and joy.
Hell is for those who reject God's grace with a full knowledge of what that grace entails. In other words, the only people who will be in hell will be those who totally understand who and what God is and has done for us, and then rejects that offering, rejects God. In this scenario, an athiest wouldn't be in hell.
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posted
Ok, but let's take what you just said Sala... Who the heck would take some kind of suffering or punishment in a hell of some kind when they could, after finding out about all the grace and goodness of god unambiguously, move into the cushy and lovely heaven? And I feel like being in hell, although among like-minded people, would not be pleasant and would in fact be quite horrible... eternal punishment and suffering? not so fun.
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posted
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." - Marcus Aurelius
Well, that made my point better and much more elegant than I did. I'll go with this.
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posted
Starsnuffer, the person who would take that kind of suffering is the person who doesn't want that grace and goodness of God. He or she is so opposed to God, despite knowing about that "cushy and lovely heaven" that he or she would rather reject it than accept it. I don't think very many people will be in hell. Most everyone else will accept what God has to offer, whether it be a limited amount or a great amount.
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posted
Ok, but this is in the context of the “destination” of atheists after death. I’m quite certain that many atheists are more concerned about how they live their life, than about what happens after it. Then, why have faith? What does faith bring, that an atheist can’t have otherwise?
posted
This thread brings up some question I've wondered about--can there be atheists in heaven? Assuming there is an afterlife and a heaven, can you remain there without believing in the god of heaven? Would you want to?
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If someone can live a moral life without belief in God, well I'm pretty sure He has many other people he is worried about.
I don't think God judges our morality in the way that we do. If He is a perfectly holy God then any act of disobedience towards His will is immoral and by its very nature evil. Since God is incapable of sinning and cannot be tempted compared to us is infinitely better. It's not really based on a curve. 50% get into hell and the better half get into heaven.
It's more based on the idea that we have a personal relationship with God and using that relationship we try and do God's will in our lives.
Just to clarify, is it part of your belief system that all sins carry the same amount of weight?
This thread brings up some question I've wondered about--can there be atheists in heaven? Assuming there is an afterlife and a heaven, can you remain there without believing in the god of heaven? Would you want to?
If heaven is created by some sort of god then I don't think atheists would be logically explain away god.
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posted
The title of this thread still sounds to me like the first part of a joke, but i have yet to come up with a good punchline
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This thread brings up some question I've wondered about--can there be atheists in heaven? Assuming there is an afterlife and a heaven, can you remain there without believing in the god of heaven? Would you want to?
If heaven is created by some sort of god then I don't think atheists would be logically explain away god.
I suppose that it depends on what the afterlife is like. Obviously, Atheists would have to do some serious reevaluation of their beliefs. However, unless god himself shows up (or some other such convincing event), then there could be other explanations for an afterlife than God. For example, it could be some different deity than the one described by Christianity. Or it could even be that there really is some physical "soul" that maintains our consciousness somehow. At any rate, while it would definitely be unexpected for an Atheist, an afterlife wouldn't in and of itself imply that God exists.
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So, what happens if, even if given the evidence of your deceased senses, you say yes. Does heaven really require the existance of a god of somekind? It could be purely scientific.
This thread brings up some question I've wondered about--can there be atheists in heaven? Assuming there is an afterlife and a heaven, can you remain there without believing in the god of heaven? Would you want to?
If heaven is created by some sort of god then I don't think atheists would be logically explain away god.
I suppose that it depends on what the afterlife is like. Obviously, Atheists would have to do some serious reevaluation of their beliefs. However, unless god himself shows up (or some other such convincing event), then there could be other explanations for an afterlife than God. For example, it could be some different deity than the one described by Christianity. Or it could even be that there really is some physical "soul" that maintains our consciousness somehow. At any rate, while it would definitely be unexpected for an Atheist, an afterlife wouldn't in and of itself imply that God exists.
Right, but in the spirit of this thread, say you wound up in heaven where there was definitely a god. Let's say it was a very nice place to be. Would you give up your atheism and believe in that god? What would it take for you to do so?
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posted
I am reasonably certain that there will be atheists that, upon finding out that there is in fact a God, won't commit obedience to all of His requirements. Some will probably convince themselves that some of the rules are retarded, and that they know better.
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posted
Wait, is total obedience a pre-requisite to going to Heaven (whatever the definition of Heaven you choose) I wonder how many theists qualify for that one…
Compare that with the opinion shown in this thread that “good atheists” could be accepted into some form of Heaven (some definition that I don’t subscribe to).
posted
Here is heaven the way I believe in it: Your belief in God coupled with obedience to his commandments does actually prepare you for a higher degree of heaven. Kind of like your diligent practice prepares you to play or perform at a higher level. Having lived a genuinely good life, having done good for one's fellow beings and for the world, although without believing in God or keeping all of his commandments, will certainly yield many great things but not everything that is possible. You don't enter the afterlife being any different or really knowing any more than you do in this life, but take along with you everything you've done and become in this life, including your beliefs and desires.
As far as total obedience--or being perfect--that's not something we can attain on our own in this life. That's where the grace of God comes into play. If we are striving for it and relying on God to help us, then we will be able to attain much more than we could on our own--both for our own good and for the good of others.
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posted
"Some will probably convince themselves that some of the rules are retarded, and that they know better. "
If you need to convince yourself that something like genocide, or, even worse, eternal torment for finite crimes, or no crime at all except living as we're designed to, is retarded, then there's something gravely wrong with you, BB.
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