posted
Point taken. But ask a linguist, and he (or she) will tell you that Indiana is a feminine name, because it has a Latin root.
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Luckily, the opinions of linguists don't generally have anything to do with what people are actually named.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Point taken. But ask a linguist, and he (or she) will tell you that Indiana is a feminine name, because it has a Latin root.
Actually, a linguist would probably tell you that you're confusing natural and grammatical gender, that English lacks the latter, and that people will use whatever names they want to use. And I'd tell you that it doesn't seem like you know much about linguists.
Edit: And they'd also tell you that you've got a problem with your causality. Some Latin words were feminine, grammatically speaking. Being Latin did not make a word feminine.
[ January 20, 2008, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
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quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: By Joshua! By Ezra!
In Hebrew, names (and words) that end kametz-heh are usually feminine. Rivka, Sarah, Laya, Na'amah, etc. (There are exceptions -- Simcha can be either a girl's name or a guy's.)
Yehoshua and Ezra end patach-ayin. You can't see the difference in most transliterated/translated English versions but it is different.
As for Indiana, California, etc., trying to use linguistic rules of a language they are not from is pretty dumb.
Also, what Jon Boy said.
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Yehoshua and Ezra end patach-ayin. You can't see the difference in most transliterated/translated English versions but it is different.
None of the Joshuas and Ezras in my life have been Jewish, so I have never been told the Hebrew versions of the names.
I don't think I said all Hebrew names are alike, but If I did, I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. I was responding to Resh's ridiculous statement that there are no boys names ending in "a". Not making a statement about the origins of names. Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I was really responding to both of you -- or neither.
You quoted me. Like I said, if I implied that the Hebrew origins/rules of names like Joshua and Ezra didn't exist somehow, that wasn't my intention. It was just I've always seen them used as names for boys, and spelled with an "a" at the end. Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: So... *taps a finger*
Anyone want to comment on the video?
It looked like a good set. I appreciated the attention to detail. I hope that bodes well for the rest of the movie.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I was really responding to both of you -- or neither.
You quoted me. Like I said, if I implied that the Hebrew origins/rules of names like Joshua and Ezra didn't exist somehow, that wasn't my intention. It was just I've always seen them used as names for boys, and spelled with an "a" at the end.
Yup. They are. And I wasn't saying otherwise.
I was correcting the assumption (that their final "a"s are of the same origin/meaning as those of most feminine final "a"s) implied (to me) by using them as counterexamples.
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posted
Thank you, Jon Boy, for coming in and shutting that nonsense down:)
----
I am on pins and needles about this movie. I hope they don't go all Spider-Man 3 on me with this one.
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I think you are all mostly missing the point. Many Latin names -and nouns in general- have a masculine and a feminine version, specifically defined by whether them last letter is. Mario-Maria, Paulo-Paula, Justino-Justina. If you give someone a name (or take the name, in Indy's case) that is Latin in origin and ends with an "a," I don't see how you could say you are giving that person a girl's name.
quote: By Jon Boy: "And they'd also tell you that you've got a problem with your causality. Some Latin words were feminine, grammatically speaking. Being Latin did not make a word feminine.
And I'd tell you that you have a problem with interpreting statements. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think that if a word is Latin in origin it is feminine. But don't worry about it. I'm used to people reading what I write in a way that suits them, regardless of what I actually wrote.
So Jon didn't shut any nonsense down, Rakeesh. You just declared victory for one side and thought that was the end of it, as if you were some sort of authority on anything. God, you guys can be annoying sometimes.
Sorry, Puffy. Of course it was (and is) a ridiculous statement. I was actually quoting someone I met in Mexico last summer, which is why I wrote my post in Spanish. We can argue about this stuff all day, but I guarantee you wont convince any Mexicans. As for the clip.. eh. I'm supremely hopeful that this movie will be awesome, but only because if I wasn't I would just go ahead and kill myself.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: If you give someone a name (or take the name, in Indy's case) that is Latin in origin and ends with an "a," I don't see how you could say you are giving that person a girl's name.
How many girls do you know named Indiana? To me, it's a place name, which makes it devoid of natural gender, whatever the grammatical (not natural) gender of its Latin roots might be.
quote:
quote: By Jon Boy: "And they'd also tell you that you've got a problem with your causality. Some Latin words were feminine, grammatically speaking. Being Latin did not make a word feminine.
And I'd tell you that you have a problem with interpreting statements. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think that if a word is Latin in origin it is feminine. But don't worry about it. I'm used to people reading what I write in a way that suits them, regardless of what I actually wrote.
It's probably from this:
quote:Indiana is a feminine name, because it has a Latin root.
There is precisely one possible interpretation of that statement, and it's that if the root is Latin, then the word is feminine. If that's not what you meant, then the problem is yours, not mine.
quote:So Jon didn't shut any nonsense down, Rakeesh. You just declared victory for one side and thought that was the end of it, as if you were some sort of authority on anything. God, you guys can be annoying sometimes.
Not nearly as annoying as the troll who brought up this ridiculous argument, said "Ask a linguist," and then thoroughly dismissed the viewpoints of a linguist.
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quote:And I'd tell you that you have a problem with interpreting statements. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think that if a word is Latin in origin it is feminine. But don't worry about it. I'm used to people reading what I write in a way that suits them, regardless of what I actually wrote. [/QB]
And I'd tell you that what you wrote was very unclear, and really did imply that you believed what JB thought you did. That's you're fault, at least from where I'm sitting. Learn to be more clear- if you think what you say could be misinterpreted, then preempt that issue rather than whining about it later, once you're already wrong.
Edit: In this case, a very simple "Because names with a latin root ending in "a" are generally feminine," would have been more clear than what you wrote.
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You have yet to explain how this is relevant in any way to the thread.
If you give someone a name (or take the name, in Indy's case) that is Latin in origin and ends with an "a," I don't see how you could say you are giving that person a girl's name.
And now you contradict yourself. I'm not certain what the point of this is.
Sorry, Puffy. Of course it was (and is) a ridiculous statement. I was actually quoting someone I met in Mexico last summer, which is why I wrote my post in Spanish. We can argue about this stuff all day, but I guarantee you wont convince any Mexicans.
So, if the Indiana Jones character were Hispanic and if he took his name from Hispanic sources then your remark would be make sense?
Man, that's convoluted. What did you think of the clip? Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:So Jon didn't shut any nonsense down, Rakeesh. You just declared victory for one side and thought that was the end of it, as if you were some sort of authority on anything. God, you guys can be annoying sometimes.
Said the layman who is arguing linguistics with an actual friggin' linguist, and then acts as though I'm being too impulsive when I side with the linguist.
Who, by the way, to this layman certainly puts up a better argument than you do on this subject. You made a statement that had an obvious interpretation, that interpretation was shot down. You lost the argument here. Get over it.
It's much less annoying.
Oh, and I'm guessing that you might not convince a Mexican linguist that you're right. But you probably don't want to ask any linguists who disagree with you.
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posted
Reshpeckobiggle: Names that end in "a" are feminine.
Puffy Treat: By Joshua! By Ezra! By Luka! You're right!
Reshpeckobiggle: Point taken. But ask a linguist, and he (or she) will tell you that Indiana is a feminine name, because it has a Latin root.
Yeah, I can see how Jon Boy could have interpreted it the way he did... by jumping in with his two cents without bothering to read the entire 3-post history of this bit of conversation.
Yes, Indiana is a place name, but a name nonetheless. Furthermore, it is a feminine name, like California, Florida, Venezuela or Argentina. Mexico and El Salvador are countries with masculine names (you can tell with the latter because of the "El.") Jon Boy, are you really a linguist?
Yes, Rakeesh, I lost the argument. Thank you again, Mr. Umpire, for your authoritative declaration. I do need to get over it, and I plan on doing that, just as soon as you get over yourself.
Sorry, Puffy, that was a typo. I should have said, "I don't see how you could say you aren't giving that person a girl's name." As for it's relevance to the thread... you got me there. It's not the least bit relevant. I think (now that I in fact think about it, because when I first posted I wasn't really thinking about anything) I was making a point about how we as Americans can be so oblivious to how we appear to the rest of the world because of our ignorance of customs and ways of thinking about things that to others are completely foundational. Or something like that. I don't know, I just made it up. The clip... like I said: eh. Let's see some of the Mayan/Aztec sets, or the Area 51 set, or whatever the hell this movie is supposed to be about. All I know is that this movie had better be amazing, and not the product of a couple of 60-somethings looking to recreate the glory of their old days. If it's awesome (and it had better be) I'll give credit to Spielberg, because he's still at the top of his game.
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quote:Yes, Rakeesh, I lost the argument. Thank you again, Mr. Umpire, for your authoritative declaration. I do need to get over it, and I plan on doing that, just as soon as you get over yourself.
Is it hardwired in your DNA to be a jackass, or just a choice? I don't need to be an umpire to know when someone has lost an argument as clearly as you did. I'm not pretending to be the Aribiter of Hatrack, I'm just pointing out what is self evident to me and (I suspect) just about anyone you could ask. Go ahead. You know what their answer will be.
quote:...I was making a point about how we as Americans can be so oblivious to how we appear to the rest of the world because of our ignorance of customs and ways of thinking about things that to others are completely foundational.
Because, naturally, language is a static thing and what was true in one context a long time ago must be true now, because it's 'foundational'. Language doesn't change, right?
Pft. Yeah, we Americans sure are oblivious!
I'd refer you to a linguist regarding the question of whether language changes, but I doubt you'd accept someone who knows something about the topic beyond, "This Mexican guy I asked."
quote:Jon Boy, are you really a linguist?
Man, it's been awhile since I've hoped someone on Hatrack would post a response this much!
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I'm excited about this film, suddenly. I think that an Indy film is just what the country needs.
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Latin did have a few irregular nouns which we feminine grammatically but masculine in meaning. Agricola (farmer) was one. And don't try to say girls can be farmers too. Of course they can, but that wasn't the point.
posted
I do not know how far across the board this rule extends, but in Spanish any word (with a few exceptions) that begins with an "a" or an a "ha" and also ends with an "a" will have a masculine article assigned to it, even though the word itself is feminine.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Yeah, I can see how Jon Boy could have interpreted it the way he did
Yes, because there was really only one way to interpret it.
quote:Yes, Indiana is a place name, but a name nonetheless. Furthermore, it is a feminine name, like California, Florida, Venezuela or Argentina. Mexico and El Salvador are countries with masculine names (you can tell with the latter because of the "El.")
Now we're just going round in circles. Do you understand what I mean when I talk about the difference between natural and grammatical gender? I mean, you did say "Ask a linguist," but it doesn't seem like you're interested in hearing the answer.
quote:Jon Boy, are you really a linguist?
Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, it's not what I get paid to do right now (I'm a production editor), but my degree is in English language (basically just a linguistics program focused on English), and it's what I'm planning on going back to grad school for.
Sorry, Rakeesh, if that answer wasn't as exciting as you'd hoped.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: I do not know how far across the board this rule extends, but in Spanish any word (with a few exceptions) that begins with an "a" or an a "ha" and also ends with an "a" will have a masculine article assigned to it, even though the word itself is feminine.
I hope you realize that there are significant differences between Latin and Spanish. For starters, Latin had three genders, while Spanish has only two. So if you're making assumptions about Latin grammar based on your knowledge of Spanish, you could be way off base.
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posted
I'm making a few assumptions yes, mostly based upon differences I find between English and Spanish. I think I know what you mean about Natural and Grammatical gender, and it is this difference that causes me to believe that I have a point and you are missing it. I could be wrong.
I too am sorry that Rakeesh may not receive the satisfaction of my eternal defeat for which he obviously so desperately seeks, but since you and I know that there are Noam Chompsky-ish areas of language that prevent a complete melding of ideas (I am referring to the idea that language may influence basic ideas and prejudices), can we not agree that I am way wrong if we stay within an English language paradigm, but stepping out into the larger world... I might be on to something?
Indiana is a girl's name!
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I absolutely love the idea of things being Noam Chompsky-ish. I'm pretty sure I had some Chompsky-ish nachos the other day.
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quote:I too am sorry that Rakeesh may not receive the satisfaction of my eternal defeat for which he obviously so desperately seeks...
Actually I don't care much if you're 'defeated' or not. It's the part where you're still talking that's so troublesome. But at least now you've retreated from unfounded certainty into 'I might be onto something if...'
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: I'm making a few assumptions yes, mostly based upon differences I find between English and Spanish. I think I know what you mean about Natural and Grammatical gender, and it is this difference that causes me to believe that I have a point and you are missing it. I could be wrong.
Yes, I think you're wrong. I get your point. You've restated it several times now. My point is that just because a word belongs to the feminine gender in Latin doesn't mean it's a girl's name. And yes, you can throw out examples like Maria and Mario, but that doesn't mean that Indiana is analogous.
For starters, it's not even real Latin, and if it were, it would be a strangely formed word. India is a place name. Add an -n and it becomes an adjective referring to that place name. But then we tack on another -a to turn it back into a place name. So I think we can safely say that it's not really Latin, but merely an English word that happens to resemble Latin.
quote:I too am sorry that Rakeesh may not receive the satisfaction of my eternal defeat for which he obviously so desperately seeks, but since you and I know that there are Noam Chompsky-ish areas of language that prevent a complete melding of ideas (I am referring to the idea that language may influence basic ideas and prejudices), can we not agree that I am way wrong if we stay within an English language paradigm, but stepping out into the larger world... I might be on to something?
Doubtful. And anyway, what's the point of analyzing an English word from a world paradigm? Do you honestly think anyone in the world cares that we have a male movie character name named Indiana? Do you have any evidence to show that the rest of the world is pointing their fingers at us and laughing because of it?
I'm really curious about what you mean by "Noam Chompsky-ish [sic] areas of language" and why you think Chomsky has anything to do with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: But he thinks it's a girl's name, so I doubt that's his reference.
Shia LaBeouf is in the new Indiana Jones movie, so I think it's highly doubtful that he wasn't referring to him.
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