quote:KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) -- Kansas activities officials are investigating a religious school's refusal to let a female referee call a boys' high school basketball game.
The Kansas State High School Activities Association said referees reported that Michelle Campbell was preparing to officiate at St. Mary's Academy near Topeka on Feb. 2 when a school official insisted that Campbell could not call the game.
The reason given, according to the referees: Campbell, as a woman, could not be put in a position of authority over boys because of the academy's beliefs.
I hope that the Kansas State High School Activities Association, upon finding these facts are true, revokes the private school's status as an 'accepted school'. I don't think there's any room in our taxpayer-funded athletic association to support schools with such harsh discriminatory policies. (It's a private/non-profit organization, but I'm going to put my money in this spot, because I'm willing to bet the funding comes from public schools, which are taxpayer-funded.) I'll check this with my dad, who is a Superintendent and K-8 principal, tomorrow, just to be sure.
I would also support any area referees' associations in boycotting the school's athletic events (provided they can do so without breaking contracts.) The association mentioned in the article, the Topeka Officials Association, provided sound bites that indicate they might choose to take such action. Ya know, it's kind of hard to run a basketball program without referees for games...
In defense of the school, they have the right to make this choice, and they have the right to accept any consequences that result from that choice. I fully support their right to choose this way. Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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How is a private school getting federal funds for their athletic program? Maybe things are done differently in this country but the private school I went to was totally dependent on tuition and fund raising.
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I didn't say they were getting federal funds, and I don't recall seeing that in the article. Correct me if I'm wrong...
I specified that a taxpayer-funded entity organized for athletics should not contain as an 'accepted member' a private school that discriminates on the basis of sex.
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quote:Originally posted by Tstorm: I didn't say they were getting federal funds, and I don't recall seeing that in the article. Correct me if I'm wrong...
I specified that a taxpayer-funded entity organized for athletics should not contain as an 'accepted member' a private school that discriminates on the basis of sex.
No I get that, I just didn't realize the athletic organizations that public schools compete in may or may not be funded by the government. Could you give me a real world example of such an organization?
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quote:The reason given, according to the referees: Campbell, as a woman, could not be put in a position of authority over boys because of the academy's beliefs.
hurrrrr welcum 2 St. Mary's Academy: ur gateway 2 teh 18th censury
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quote:The reason given, according to the referees: Campbell, as a woman, could not be put in a position of authority over boys because of the academy's beliefs.
hurrrrr welcum 2 St. Mary's Academy: ur gateway 2 teh 18th censury
Hey here's an idea, try condescending just a little more. If you reach a certain threshold I hear it will convince anybody that they should stop arguing with you.
edit: I suppose that was a bit more rude then I intended it to be and for that I'm sorry. For some reason that comment just rubbed me the wrong way, as certain beliefs I have are considered backwards by some.
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BlackBlade, I'm going to ask my dad, tomorrow, where the KSHSAA funding comes from. They have to get money to operate, and I hope to find out their source. Does that answer your question?
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quote:Originally posted by Tstorm: BlackBlade, I'm going to ask my dad, tomorrow, where the KSHSAA funding comes from. They have to get money to operate, and I hope to find out their source. Does that answer your question?
Well from their website it says, "What is the KSHSAA? A private/non-profit association of accredited member schools... "
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Yes, and I've quoted that in my original post. Your point?
My point is, I'm going to find out if their funding comes exclusively from member schools (public schools, in this case), or if there's another source.
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quote:Originally posted by Tstorm: Yes, and I've quoted that in my original post. Your point?
My point is, I'm going to find out if their funding comes exclusively from member schools (public schools, in this case), or if there's another source.
*makes a mental note to go to bed at around 11:00pm so as to reduce idiocy while posting*
Sorry Tstorm I somehow forgot that you wrote that in your post and we went full circle. I was not really arguing with you so much as just asking questions.
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Just in case anyone was curious which particular backwards group this was:
quote: The Activities Association said it is considering whether to take action against the private religious school. St. Mary's Academy, about 25 miles northwest of Topeka, is owned and operated by the Society of St. Pius X, which follows older Roman Catholic laws. The society's world leader, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, was excommunicated by Pope John Paul II in the late 1980s.
quote:Hey here's an idea, try condescending just a little more. If you reach a certain threshold I hear it will convince anybody that they should stop arguing with you.
edit: I suppose that was a bit more rude then I intended it to be and for that I'm sorry. For some reason that comment just rubbed me the wrong way, as certain beliefs I have are considered backwards by some.
There are certain things in this world that I'm inclined to roll my eyes furiously at and one of those is saying you can't have female referees because 'women can't be put in positions of authority over boys.'
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quote:Originally posted by Tstorm: I specified that a taxpayer-funded entity organized for athletics should not contain as an 'accepted member' a private school that discriminates on the basis of sex.
When you say "discriminates on the basis of sex," are you referring to this (rather bizarre) incident, or would you have an issue with any single-gender school participating in such an athletic group?
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I think it would be a different situation if the school only accepted students of a certain gender and only had teachers of a certain gender, but allowed outside organizations to which they belonged to operate freely while on their grounds.
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quote:Hey here's an idea, try condescending just a little more. If you reach a certain threshold I hear it will convince anybody that they should stop arguing with you.
edit: I suppose that was a bit more rude then I intended it to be and for that I'm sorry. For some reason that comment just rubbed me the wrong way, as certain beliefs I have are considered backwards by some.
There are certain things in this world that I'm inclined to roll my eyes furiously at and one of those is saying you can't have female referees because 'women can't be put in positions of authority over boys.'
Yeah, I was curious-- does that mean their mothers can't tell them what to do?
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I think it would be a different situation if the school only accepted students of a certain gender and only had teachers of a certain gender, but allowed outside organizations to which they belonged to operate freely while on their grounds.
I agree, but I'm not sure Tstorm does.
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: I've never really thought about it before, but can anyone explain to me why single sex schools aren't discriminating?
The best I can come up with is "they are discriminating, but that's okay."
It would not be okay in a public school (IMO.) In a private school, they can certainly choose who to serve-- only boys, only girls, only Orthodox Jews, only Scientologists, whatever.
They just can't then expect public funding.
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Actually, rivka, I think KQ summed it up well. I have no issue with private, same-sex institutions. You're right, too. This is a rather bizarre incident.
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My Dad has informed me that KSHSAA receives their funding from their membership. They are a private, non-profit organization and they have both public and private school members. I think the issue, for them, is whether the school's choice (in this case) reflects their values and principles. As far as I know, St. Mary's Academy is NOT a member, they are just on the list of 'approved schools' that KSHSAA members can play with. I certainly hope that KSHSAA makes the decision that such discrimination is not reflective of their values.
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I dunno I think the idea that women can't be put in authority over boys (or men for that matter) is worth some condescension and mockery.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Yeah, I was curious-- does that mean their mothers can't tell them what to do?
Where do you think the phrase "Wait until your father gets home!" came from?
Well, in my house it comes from the knowledge that there are some days I can put the kids on time-out and take away priviledges as much as I want and they keep disobeying willy-nilly (and I am NOT a lax disciplinarian) but one stern talking-to from their father stops the behavior for good... At least for a week or so...
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Yeah, I'm gonna happily ridicule a school that teaches the inferiority of one sex. Heck, I'll ridicule a religious sect that does that. It's not forgivable simply on the grounds of religious belief.
It speaks well of the other referee that he walked off as well . . .
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To clarify I too think some ideas are so patently false that they are deserving of ridicule.
But where some draw the line occasionally skirts awfully close to territory that is not so well defined.
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BB, Are you supportive of the idea that women should not be allowed to be referees over boys or that they shuoldn't hold authority over males in general?
That doesn't seem to skirt anywhere near a line I'd draw between things that are deserving of ridicule and not. I'm sort of surprised that it does for you.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: To clarify I too think some ideas are so patently false that they are deserving of ridicule.
But where some draw the line occasionally skirts awfully close to territory that is not so well defined.
Well, that is the problem. Where I draw the line may be deep into the territory of what you don't think is ridiculous, and vice versa.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: BB, Are you supportive of the idea that women should not be allowed to be referees over boys or that they shuoldn't hold authority over males in general?
That doesn't seem to skirt anywhere near a line I'd draw between things that are deserving of ridicule and not. I'm sort of surprised that it does for you.
No I definately think the idea that women cannot referee over boys or ever be in any position of authority over them ever is completely false.
But for example in my religion for some reason women head auxilary organizations but do not hold positions of leadership in the church proper. They are still mothers, primary leaders, etc and have authority over boys, they are also coequals in their marriages with their husbands. But even that idea to some is akin to treating women like we are back in the 18th century.
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Yeah, I thought that was where you were coming from.
I think part of the reason that this view is common is because of people like this and their ridiculous bigotry. From a certain perspective, there some symmetry between your beliefs and people, especially those already unfavorably disposed, often will overgeneralize.
I think it doesn't help, if and when you jump to defend them either. Although that isn't really what you were doing here, it could appear that way.
---
None of this is particularly fair, but then look at what moderate Muslims have to go through.
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quote:To clarify I too think some ideas are so patently false that they are deserving of ridicule.
I'm not sure what justification you could have that anything could deserve ridicule. Ridicule is fun and all, and it is sometimes insightful, but I don't think you could say it is something one ever deserves.
quote:To clarify I too think some ideas are so patently false that they are deserving of ridicule.
I'm not sure what justification you could have that anything could possibly deserve ridicule. Ridicule is fun and all, and it is sometimes insightful, but I don't think you could say it is something one ever deserves.
I think you mixed it up there a bit. Ridicule may never be deserved by someone, but certain things certainly do.
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quote:To clarify I too think some ideas are so patently false that they are deserving of ridicule.
I'm not sure what justification you could have that anything could deserve ridicule. Ridicule is fun and all, and it is sometimes insightful, but I don't think you could say it is something one ever deserves.
Um... so you're saying that Fred Phelps isn't deserving of ridicule? I disagree.
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: I've never really thought about it before, but can anyone explain to me why single sex schools aren't discriminating?
The best I can come up with is "they are discriminating, but that's okay."
It would not be okay in a public school (IMO.) In a private school, they can certainly choose who to serve-- only boys, only girls, only Orthodox Jews, only Scientologists, whatever.
They just can't then expect public funding.
Ah ha. That shouldn't have been so difficult to figure out. I think I was making it more complex than it had to be. Thanks for helpin' out the slow kid. Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Campbell, as a woman, could not be put in a position of authority over boys because of the academy's beliefs.
I think whenever I am playing that team, I would be a Ravenist. Ravenism is an egotistical religion where I believe that I was the only one created truly in God's image, that I am his prophet and ultimate religious leader on this planet. (Please send contributions to....) Only Dan_raven is allowed to have authority over me. As the only Dan_raven, and the only Authority, I declare I win.
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quote:Originally posted by Tstorm: Actually, rivka, I think KQ summed it up well. I have no issue with private, same-sex institutions.
Thanks for clarifying. [Smile]
You're welcome. I consider it important to clarify that I don't have any trouble with the concept of 'freedom of association'. It's rather fundamental, at least to me. Also, I'm glad this thread didn't descend into arguing. So thank you, too. Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Tstorm: I consider it important to clarify that I don't have any trouble with the concept of 'freedom of association'. It's rather fundamental, at least to me.
quote:Um... so you're saying that Fred Phelps isn't deserving of ridicule?
No he isn't deserving of ridicule. He is probably deserving of some sort of punishment, but ridicule is not the sort of thing that will balance those moral scales.
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quote:To clarify I too think some ideas are so patently false that they are deserving of ridicule.
I'm not sure what justification you could have that anything could deserve ridicule. Ridicule is fun and all, and it is sometimes insightful, but I don't think you could say it is something one ever deserves.
You'll note I said "ideas" not "people."
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Sorry KQ, Kwea is right. Anyone who has ever seen my try to play any sport would testify to that.
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quote:It would not be okay in a public school (IMO.) In a private school, they can certainly choose who to serve-- only boys, only girls, only Orthodox Jews, only Scientologists, whatever.
They just can't then expect public funding.
Actually there are gender separated public schools. The difference is that they justify the practice by arguing that girls and boys learn better in a single sex environment, and there is significant evidence to back up the claim. I think there must be an opt out clause if students (or parents) want to have a co-ed environment.
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Hmmm. Thinking about that, I'm okay with it IF co-ed schools are available in the area, the program is completely the same for both genders, teachers are equally qualified, resources are equally allocated, etc., and it's an opt-IN program for parents/students to choose. Kind of like a charter school type alternative to traditional public school.
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quote:I dunno I think the idea that women can't be put in authority over boys (or men for that matter) is worth some condescension and mockery.
Srsly.
It's so bad it's practically against the interest of anyone who wants their kid to grow up in any portion of the nation which isn't a haven of backwards sexist ideals.
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