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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Obama administration to [potentially] require community service in schools (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Obama administration to [potentially] require community service in schools
Threads
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Link

quote:
The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year. Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.
Initially I was very uncomfortable with this plan since the service would be mandatory but now that I think about it my feelings are more mixed. Many school districts already require community service and I don't have any problems with that (the difference here being that the service is required on a national level). As was noted on another website, workers effectively spend much more time each year working for the government as a result of taxes so the time requirements aren't super strict. However, I do find the notion of having to fit in 100 hours of service into my school schedule rather daunting. Though at the moment I don't do any which isn't good either. Since the current lack of community service is probably a result of general disinterest (I only have personal experience to back this up) making it mandatory may be the most effective way to increase service.

EDIT: The wording has changed (see post on page 2) but I'm going to keep the initial wording here so the the discussion on this page makes sense.

[ November 10, 2008, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Threads ]

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Itsame
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100 hours? OK, I no longer like Obama.
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dantesparadigm
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My high school started requiring 100 hrs of service my senior year. It seemed like a lot for most people, The policy started with the incoming freshmen, so I was exempt, but I had done that easily by volunteering for the town council for four years.

At the college level it seems more difficult depending on their definitions. I'd be annoyed if I couldn't stay in a campus political organization because I had to spend that time volunteering. I'm definitely not a fan of nationally mandating things like that, especially at a college level. That should really be the individual institution's choice.

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Threads
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If the goal is to increase the amount of public service performed by kids and college students then what are some good alternatives? I think a tuition credit for college students could work nicely though that would require federal funding.
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Valentine014
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100 hours. That's nothing. In my high school we were required to do 40 hours in the four years we were there. It was because of that jump start that I am so involved in the community now. According to my records, I am looking at 700 hours this year alone, all done while attending 15-16 credit hours at a university, doing a part-time internship, and holding office at a campus organization. I do believe kids should do mandatory community service, and if I had a say, I would require 200 hours prior to graduation. Fifty hours a year is very doable.
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ketchupqueen
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Yep, we had to do 40 hours to graduate, including 10 the first year (the other 30 could be done any time after that.) If you did 100 or more (and documented them properly) you got a special medal at graduation. I think about 1/3 of the kids got it every year. Especially if you were in Key Club it was really easy to get that many, in less than 2 years even.

I am amazed, looking back, at how much free time I had in school...

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Threads
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We had to do 50 hours to graduate and it was no biggy. The 50 hour requirement per year would have been absolutely no problem for me in middle school or high school. I'm a little uneasy about the 100 hour requirement in college but I'm sure I could fit it in. It could prove to be a stressful requirement at certain times though.

EDIT: Obviously right now I'm posting on hatrack late at night so I can't claim to handle my time as effectively as I should anyways [Razz]

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Wonder Dog
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100 hours/year at the college level works out to 4hrs/week if you only do service during two semesters (that's assuming a semester is 14 weeks, of course). If you do service the whole year, it's only 2hrs/week.

My opinion: That really isn't a lot, and it will probably help you more than you think. Just having something else to do where you help others instead of stressing out about your own workload helps to put things in perspective. And I imagine the definition of "service" will be pretty broad... (campus clubs, church actives, etc.)

Plus it creates new college jobs! Someone has to track all the student's hours, authorize service plans, etc.

If you really want America to change, this kind of thing is how it'll start. It forces you to switch your thinking from "What about me?! My Time!" to "What about them? How can I help?". It might be a drag at first, but 99.9% of people will quickly come to enjoy it, I bet. (And those 0.1% left over will be upset no matter what you do.)

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Lyrhawn
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100 a year might not be so bad. A 100 a semester I wouldn't have time for.

I'll be honest though, part of me wants to know what I get out of it. While on the one hand I'd actually be okay with this just being a requirement, on the other, I know that if it was any other age group but youth, they'd be throwing a hissy fit unless there was a tax credit or something involved. I think they should raise Pell Grant limits. Don't pay us outright, but help us with our education. Send the money directly to the schools. I doubt many or any would complain.

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rivka
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Pell grants are scheduled to go up (assuming Congress doesn't reduce the base amount) for the next several years.
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I'll be honest though, part of me wants to know what I get out of it.

What? You're not willing to help your fellow man out of the goodness of your heart? Come on man! You voted for this!
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Lyrhawn
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I said I'd do it. I'd even do it willingly. And this is exactly the sort of thing I thought he would do. I just think it's strange that the youth age group are the one group that everyone feels okay about pushing around and asking for something from without giving anything back. If this is the new way we do things, I'm totally and entirely okay with it, just so long as this is how everyone is treated, and not just the group without any political power.

I don't really want a tax break in that sense, or a tax credit. I DO want help with school, either by bringing the cost down or more grants or what not, but I'm fine paying my fair share, and I'm fine helping out in the community. In other words, I don't want someone putting spending money in my hand in return for service.

riv -

Thanks, I didn't know that. [Smile]

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rivka
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Interest rates on subsidized Stafford (for undergrads only, and not unsub) are going down, too. [Smile]
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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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We were required to do 40. I ended up with over 400.
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Katarain
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I thought he said in one of his campaign speeches that one of his goals was a free (or reduced?) college education to anyone who served their country, either in the military or in a non-military way. Are we sure that this doesn't fall into line with that?
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Dagonee
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Is there any point in asking why the federal government would be requiring this, instead of states? Or is that just a meaningless question at this point in our country's federalism?

My other problem with this kind of thing is that I've seen some incidents of bias by those who determine what acceptable "community service" is. In one particularly egregious case, time spent helping at a pro-life home for single moms was determined to not be acceptable, until outside pressure was brought. Eventually the rule was changed to count service to any 501(c)(3), which then disqualified some ad hoc forms of community service until students learned how to find groups to sponsor things like road cleanups.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Is there any point in asking why the federal government would be requiring this, instead of states? Or is that just a meaningless question at this point in our country's federalism?
Frankly I'm not sure where they'd really get the authority. Isn't the organization that gives accreditation colleges and universities an independent group? The government has absolutely zero power to control the curriculum of schools above the high school level. Even states I would imagine wouldn't have that power unless they are state funded schools.

However, I would imagine that tying federal aid, which they have complete control over, to service requirements, would be totally fair and under their control. So long as the states, or for that matter, local groups, are the ones actually overseeing it, I'm more okay with it. The community needs of Detroit and Gary, IN are going to be different than the community needs of Providence and Syracuse.

quote:
Originally Posted by Katarain:
I thought he said in one of his campaign speeches that one of his goals was a free (or reduced?) college education to anyone who served their country, either in the military or in a non-military way. Are we sure that this doesn't fall into line with that?

The 100 hours? I doubt it, and I don't think it should be. 100 hours is a month and a half of working 20 hours on the weekend. You do that for four years and you get free college? I think what he meant was, if you sign up for service similar to what you do in the military, like the Peace Corps or an expanded version of Americorps, then you get free or reduced college costs.
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ladyday
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I believe I was required to do 70 hours to graduate high school, and I had both middle school and high school to do said hours. I don't know how other states handle community service, but in MD, for me, 60 hours were completed in class as part of social studies classes. They called it 'service learning' and gave credit for things like writing a letter to your congress person, taking the citizenship test, or taking a field trip to a court room. I have heard that now all community service hours are done in class.

I think if you're going to be required to do community service to graduate, the school should help facilitate that, at least for some of the hours. And I don't think 'service learning' is a bad thing, in that it could help people be better volunteers. But I also believe that students should only get credit for the hours where they actually serve.

Anyway, I'm all for this, and just hope it doesn't turn into something silly.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Frankly I'm not sure where they'd really get the authority.
Same way NCLB got authority - by offering money to schools on condition of implementing the program (or, from another perspective, threatening to withhold money if schools don't).

quote:
However, I would imagine that tying federal aid, which they have complete control over, to service requirements, would be totally fair and under their control.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it "totally fair." Certainly it is within their control, though.

quote:
The community needs of Detroit and Gary, IN are going to be different than the community needs of Providence and Syracuse.

Schools setting the agenda in the types of projects that count toward the requirement is the main worry I have toward this program.
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Lyrhawn
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In that you want them to have the leading role or a backseat role? Leading role I'd hope.

I would hope that they could somehow come up with new programs that would tie people's Majors into what it is that they do. Accounting majors could go help low income families and the elderly with their taxes so they don't have to waste money on a CPA when they really don't need it anyway. Music majors could maybe give lessons in low income schools. Every major could offering tutoring at schools. This in addition to the regular stuff like urban clean up and Habitat. Doing it that way I think gives some real world experience to students, and at the same time maybe gives them a taste of what teaching might be like. More qualified teachers wouldn't hurt at all.

It would be a huge corp of young people that sure, could do a lot of actual labor with their time, but off the top of my head I think the best thing they could do would be education related, and by way of that, would be to just stand out as good role models in a lot of areas where access to college educated successful people isn't all that great.

Having schools run the programs, in conjunction with the state and local community leaders is the absolute best way to do it, in my mind. The sheer number of well educated students will allow them to start and sustain programs they've probably never considered a doable reality in the past.

It's an exciting prospect, so long as the Federal Government doesn't muck it all up.

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Paul Goldner
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Is that 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school yearly, or commulative? In high school, I don't think I had 50 spare hours during the school year. I can tell you my students don't, either. Involved in too many activities, sports, and homework.

College, yeah, I had time. 100 hours in a 12 month period is reasonable, especially if doing it gives you a tuition credit of some sort.

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Mrs.M
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I think that 50 hours a year in middle school is completely unrealistic and will place a huge burden on parents, particularly on working parents. It's certainly an admirable idea, but I think it's unworkable. For example, how do they get to these community service programs? It could be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for parents to get their kids there. I don't think that taxpayers can afford to have them bussed there. Also, who supervises them? You can't just leave middle schoolers alone - you have to have adult supervision.

I'm generally uncomfortable with the idea of forcing people to serve their communities. Aerin and I do quite a bit with the March of Dimes (she's lobbied at the VA General Assembly twice already) and it's a labor of love. I feel that it's my job as a parent to instill the idea of service (to G-d and family, as well as the community) in my children. It's not the job of the government to force this on my children.

I also think that there are many schools that have such severe problems already that this is the last thing they need to deal with. For example, a friend of mine taught 7th-grade science at a middle school in Bushwick, Brooklyn. She had no textbooks and no teaching materials (basics, like chalk). The veteran teachers told her to be happy each student has his own desk that year. She spent hundreds of her own dollars on classroom supplies and materials. How can we expect those kids to do 50 hours of community service? How can we ask that school to implement such a program?

I'm also wary of more money and effort being put into Head Start, unless it's to overhaul it. There are a number of reliable studies that show that it gives the participants little to no benefit over the course of their educations. There's actually a phenomenon known as "Head Start Fade."

I'd love to see Obama cut expensive and ineffective programs like DARE* and to reduce the number of administrators with high salaries and few duties. I'd also like to see him put more money into Special Education programs.

*Actually, I'd just like to see him support those schools who choose to forego DARE, since it's something schools choose and pay for themselves. But I'd like him to cut federally-mandated programs that aren't working.

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Farmgirl
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Is it really "community service" if it is mandated and forced?

(I'm not opposed to doing it -- I have already serve my community in many ways)

I wonder how those who home-school their kids will feel about having to do community service in a public school on top of that.

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Dagonee
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quote:
In that you want them to have the leading role or a backseat role? Leading role I'd hope.
I want the students to have a leading role in deciding where to focus their volunteer efforts. What I don't want is for faculty/administration to use this as a workforce for their pet causes. I've seen this fairly often.

I think much of the benefit of service is lost if the students are simply labor in someone else's program. Students need to learn to manage, too, and that includes identifying worthwhile goals, coming up with a plan to achieve them, identify and marshal the resources needed, and then getting it done.

I think limiting this to schools taking the lead is a big mistake. Schools will have to coordinate, for sure. But I think there's a lot of room for people outside the school to provide resources and necessary oversight for a lot of worthwhile programs. And the real benefit for students could be a lot more if they* take the real lead.

*"They" really means a sufficient number of self-selected students - not all students have to be the leaders in this type of program. But it's the ones who want to be and learn how to do it well that will be the greatest benefit of this program.

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Mucus
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Huh.

Americans really seem to be getting into the spirit of this socialism thing. We haven't really implemented a system of forced labour in socialist Canada for education, but it seems like an interesting idea. We'll copy you guys if it works out.

PS: Don't send the kids out to the countryside. In retrospect, they don't seem to appreciate it.

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by Farmgirl:
Is it really "community service" if it is mandated and forced?

I'd say so. It can't be called volunteering, really, since people are compelled to do it, but it's still unpaid work that serves the community. By definition, that would be community service, wouldn't it?
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BannaOj
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I'm completely against it. If you want to inspire America's youth to volunteer it is one thing. If you want to give them lots of incentives to do so? That's fine too.

Compelling them to, particularly if it is tied into graduation requirements? Absolutely not. Are they going to waive the requirement for people who might have learning disabilities who require that time to study so they can pass their classes? What about the profs who don't think students should have a life and assign projects so they can't? What if someone wants to do a double major? What if you are barely making ends meet and need to work to pay the bills for that amount of time, and then are denied financial aid because you haven't "volunteered"?

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Farmgirl
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This Link seems to say a bit more in depth.

From the bottom of the page:
quote:
Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Obama and Biden will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students. Recipients of the credit will be required to conduct 100 hours of community service.
So this would just be for students wishing to get credit/funding?
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Threads
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Dag, do you think there are any good ways to encourage service at a national level?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Is there any point in asking why the federal government would be requiring this, instead of states? Or is that just a meaningless question at this point in our country's federalism?
Frankly I'm not sure where they'd really get the authority. Isn't the organization that gives accreditation colleges and universities an independent group? The government has absolutely zero power to control the curriculum of schools above the high school level. Even states I would imagine wouldn't have that power unless they are state funded schools.
There are six regional accrediting agencies, and they are each independent of the government -- state or federal. However, some states also require schools to be licensed by the state. (I know that New York does and California does not; I don't know the relative percentages, etc.)

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
However, I would imagine that tying federal aid, which they have complete control over, to service requirements, would be totally fair and under their control.

Yeah, let's add another requirement to Title IV funding. [Razz] I especially like the ones that fall onto schools (often onto FAAs), rather than just onto aid recipients. This one would be TONS of fun to oversee! And I bet the government will pay for the extra staff needed to oversee it, right?

I think required community service is a relatively good idea in theory. I'm having a lot of trouble coming up with any way for it to be federally mandated that works well in practice, though.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Compelling them to, particularly if it is tied into graduation requirements? Absolutely not. Are they going to waive the requirement for people who might have learning disabilities who require that time to study so they can pass their classes? What about the profs who don't think students should have a life and assign projects so they can't? What if someone wants to do a double major? What if you are barely making ends meet and need to work to pay the bills for that amount of time, and then are denied financial aid because you haven't "volunteered"?
That was pretty much my response to having to take fine art or foreign language credits.
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Threads
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quote:
Originally posted by BannaOj:
Compelling them to, particularly if it is tied into graduation requirements? Absolutely not. Are they going to waive the requirement for people who might have learning disabilities who require that time to study so they can pass their classes? What about the profs who don't think students should have a life and assign projects so they can't? What if someone wants to do a double major? What if you are barely making ends meet and need to work to pay the bills for that amount of time, and then are denied financial aid because you haven't "volunteered"?

These same problems apply to individual school districts that require community service.

Farmgirl, that's what I originally thought the plan was and I like it a lot more. This new plan surprised me when I first read about it.

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rivka
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quote:
* Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Obama and Biden will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students. Recipients of the credit will be required to conduct 100 hours of community service.
Better than what it sounded like before, but I still have a feeling it's going to end up being the college that has to monitor the community service hours and such . . .
quote:
* Simplify the Application Process for Financial Aid: Obama and Biden will streamline the financial aid process by eliminating the current federal financial aid application and enabling families to apply simply by checking a box on their tax form, authorizing their tax information to be used, and eliminating the need for a separate application.
Sounds great, no?

But what about assets? (currently taken into account by the financial aid formula) What about state aid, much of which uses results/data from the FAFSA as part of its application? What about when there are two or more tax returns involved? (Like a parent's and a student's?) What if you decided to go to college (or apply for financial aid) after you filed your taxes? What about determining dependent/independent status (requires information not on taxes), year in school, TEACH/ACG/SMART eligibility (ditto), etc.? Oh, and how would you determine which schools got your info?

Making the FAFSA shorter is an admirable goal. But every politician who has promised to do so has failed to talk to anyone who knows how the process actually works. Which means a 1-page FAFSA . . . and a 200-question verification form later! Much better. [Razz]

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Dagonee
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quote:
Dag, do you think there are any good ways to encourage service at a national level?
I'm not really sure that's the federal government's job.If it is, there are effective ways it can be done nationally by providing opportunity (Peace Corps, AmeriCorps, etc.) and incentives.
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The Pixiest
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I thought you had to have a trial before you could be sentenced to Community Service.

Why is this the government's business at all?

How does the government have the right to require this?

On a side note, taking money from the people and returning it to them with strings attached is a horribly immoral way of circumventing the constitution. If judges had any integrity at all they'd strike this down... Yet the government's been doing this for as long as I can remember.

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Jhai
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I want to go on the record as saying that I think this is a horrible idea. My university had merit scholarships linked to major community service requirements that I thought were excellent - and I'd be all for an expansion of such programs. My high school had community service requirements for graduation, and I thought that was acceptable at the local level, given that the administrators were actually in touch with the local community AND you could always vote with your feet if you felt that that requirement was wrong.

I'm with Pixiest - I really don't see how this is the government's business at all. And they haven't made the case why community service should be tied to educational degrees. If you're going to regulate something, you need to make a case as to why the regulation is necessary. "It seems like a good idea" or "I'd like everyone to do community service" doesn't count.

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Threads
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quote:
Originally posted by Farmgirl:
This Link seems to say a bit more in depth.

From the bottom of the page:
quote:
Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Obama and Biden will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students. Recipients of the credit will be required to conduct 100 hours of community service.
So this would just be for students wishing to get credit/funding?
I sent a question through their contact form asking if the page that I linked to was mistaken or if the page you linked to meant that those wishing to receive tuition credit would have to perform 100 hours in addition to the already mandated 100 hours. It will be interesting to see if I receive a reply.
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blindsay
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So wait a second....Obama is kicking around the idea of making people do community service?

While I am all for serving my community, I do not like the idea of the government telling me how I have to manage my time. I already pay enough taxes with my money, now it sounds like he wants to tax my time.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
I thought you had to have a trial before you could be sentenced to Community Service.

Why is this the government's business at all?

How does the government have the right to require this?

On a side note, taking money from the people and returning it to them with strings attached is a horribly immoral way of circumventing the constitution. If judges had any integrity at all they'd strike this down... Yet the government's been doing this for as long as I can remember.

Maybe its written in the Preamble?
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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by BannaOj:
Compelling them to, particularly if it is tied into graduation requirements? Absolutely not.

We lost over fifty students from my HS graduating class two days before graduation because they hadn't finished their "Service Learning" (which was an absurdly easy 24 hours). I don't know if these people ever got their degrees (and I really hope they did), but it would have certainly put them at a disadvantage.
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Jhai
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:
Compelling them to, particularly if it is tied into graduation requirements? Absolutely not. Are they going to waive the requirement for people who might have learning disabilities who require that time to study so they can pass their classes? What about the profs who don't think students should have a life and assign projects so they can't? What if someone wants to do a double major? What if you are barely making ends meet and need to work to pay the bills for that amount of time, and then are denied financial aid because you haven't "volunteered"?
That was pretty much my response to having to take fine art or foreign language credits.
Dag, the difference is that the university has the right and responsibility to define what sort of education it wants to require students to have before it gives out a degree with its name on the top. You chose that school, and you have plenty of other educational choices.

The federal government, on the other hand, hasn't given any reason why it thinks community service should be tied to education, and, anyways it's not the U.S. Government on the top of your diploma.

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fugu13
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Jhai: he might have been referring to (and probably was, given the mention of art) high school education. My high school organized things in terms of credits, for instance.
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Jhai
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We had a fine arts requirement in college.

Anyways, high school graduation requirements are still more localized than the federal level, and students do have options regarding high school degrees. A good friend of mine dropped out, got his GED, took community college classes, and graduated from UCLA two years earlier than he would have if he'd followed the normal path.

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Seatarsprayan
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I think it's great to encourage young people to do community service. I think it's terrible for the federal government to force people to do it. Seems there's an amendment against involuntary servitude somewhere in the Constitution... #13, I think it is...
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Dagonee
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quote:
Dag, the difference is that the university has the right and responsibility to define what sort of education it wants to require students to have before it gives out a degree with its name on the top. You chose that school, and you have plenty of other educational choices.

The federal government, on the other hand, hasn't given any reason why it thinks community service should be tied to education, and, anyways it's not the U.S. Government on the top of your diploma.

I am not in favor of the federal government doing this. I'm pretty sure I said that.

My response to AJ has nothing to do with the federal government. It deals specifically with the time issue, which is independent of the federal government.

I was referring to college.

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Jhai
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You did say that - I was just making it clear why I thought the two cases were different enough that one is a legitimate requirement, and one was not. Playing off your comment, rather than disagreeing with anything in particular that you said.
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Belle
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Terrible idea if it is mandatory. I can almost see tying it to this 4000 dollars for college - okay, maybe. You would have a choice whether or not to take it. Four thousand dollars doesn't come close to paying for a college education anyway. But, people would have a choice, and if they accepted the money with those strings attached - that's on them.

But in high school? You've got to be kidding me. Everything Mrs. M said is correct. There are many kids for whom simply making it to class is an accomplishment. One of my 10th graders explained to me she didn't have her book because it was at her mom's - and mom lives more than an hour away, but the child has to spend at least two or three nights a week there because her parents have joint custody, yet live more than an hour apart. This kid spends most of her time in cars getting shuttled back and forth between parents. She is doing the best she can to hold on and (barely) keep up with her assignments.

As I understand it, Obama never went to a public school a day in his life. I have no idea if his kids attend public schools - but even so, they don't have to deal with the same type of issues that many of the kids I'm teaching face. They don't need 100 hours of service piled on top of them. They have enough to deal with.

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Tresopax
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This seems like an idea that might work - but it is something the states should decide upon separately, not something the federal government should try to mandate.

It's also important that schools recognize that in addition to placing the service requirement on students, they'd also have to work hard to guide students to finding service opportunities that work well for them. You can't just hand students a math textbook and then automatically assume they'll be able to pass a math exam at the end of the year. Similarly, you can't just say "Serve your community for 50 hours" and expect students to all figure out how to do that on their own. Schools would need to decide if it is worth setting aside the resources to teach how to serve.

Having said that, I think service learning if done correctly could be more of a help to students than a burden. It can be something that helps students understand the reason they are going to school.

[ November 07, 2008, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:
Frankly I'm not sure where they'd really get the authority.
Same way NCLB got authority - by offering money to schools on condition of implementing the program (or, from another perspective, threatening to withhold money if schools don't).

But, whereas NCLB is a racist, backwards, meaningless attempt at a bandaid fix on the entire education system, this "requirement," if it were tied to federal money, would not be an attempt at fixing anything. I'm ok with the government offering money if schools can promote community service- I am entirely against schools being pressured into using a system that seriously harms their ability to teach, with the promise of federal money. One puts a strain on the system, the other completely unhinges it. I've been in classrooms and talked to teachers about NCLB, and I frustrated just to see them in those kinds of positions.

On the other hand, I'm just not a big fan of the government buying local cooperation this way either. I guess you can't have everything.

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Dagonee
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quote:
But, whereas NCLB is a racist, backwards, meaningless attempt at a bandaid fix on the entire education system
Yeah! Damn that Ted Kennedy!

How the hell is NCLB racist?

quote:
I've been in classrooms and talked to teachers about NCLB, and I frustrated just to see them in those kinds of positions.
And I've seen numerous schools and classrooms that have been immensely helped by NCLB.
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