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Author Topic: What is trolling?
contents under pressure
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Here's the wiki definition:

quote:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]
How am I a troll?
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MightyCow
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Mind blown.
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Xavier
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quote:
How am I a troll?
You are someone who posts inflammatory messages on this forum with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:
How am I a troll?
You are someone who posts inflammatory messages on this forum with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response.
That's simple and clear cut when you define "inflammatory messages" to mean "the wrong opinion."
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Kwea
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How are you not, under any of your alts?
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
How are you not, under any of your alts?

I created multiple alts (one after the other) for the simple reason that I was unfairly banned for merely stating my opinion. If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.
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MightyCow
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.

Well crap, that's actually a valid point.
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aeolusdallas
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
How are you not, under any of your alts?

I created multiple alts (one after the other) for the simple reason that I was unfairly banned for merely stating my opinion. If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.
The multiple account thing alone (sock puppeting) makes you a troll
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
How are you not, under any of your alts?

I created multiple alts (one after the other) for the simple reason that I was unfairly banned for merely stating my opinion. If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.
The issue isn't just that your opinions are frank and unpopular. You start thread after thread on topics that are not only controversial, but which are introduced in a way to provoke a strong negative emotional response from people. From all appearances, you do this to start fights not productive discussions. That's why people are convinced you are a troll.

I used to think Lisa was a troll, but after several years I'm pretty confident she's genuine. She doesn't post inflammatory stuff to get a rise out of people. She has a pretty small set of hot button topics and when you stay away from those she can be quite decent. To the best of my memory, you are never part of a civil discussion. When you post it is nearly always to provoke people.

If starting fights isn't your goal, you would be well advised to change your posting style. Take for example your recent thread on incest. I've read a lot of stuff by Jonathan Haidt. That could have become a very interesting productive discussion on morality had the topic been introduced in a less inflammatory fashion, but it had zero chance of being anything but a fight the way you introduced it.

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rivka
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Yes and no. Lisa skates very close to the line and occasionally steps over it. When warned by Pop, she has rescinded, edited, etc., as she was asked to do.

Clive ignores the line altogether, and then ignores what he is told by Pop and gets banned for doing it anyway.

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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
How are you not, under any of your alts?

I created multiple alts (one after the other) for the simple reason that I was unfairly banned for merely stating my opinion. If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.
The issue isn't just that your opinions are frank and unpopular. You start thread after thread on topics that are not only controversial, but which are introduced in a way to provoke a strong negative emotional response from people. From all appearances, you do this to start fights not productive discussions. That's why people are convinced you are a troll.

I used to think Lisa was a troll, but after several years I'm pretty confident she's genuine. She doesn't post inflammatory stuff to get a rise out of people. She has a pretty small set of hot button topics and when you stay away from those she can be quite decent. To the best of my memory, you are never part of a civil discussion. When you post it is nearly always to provoke people.

If starting fights isn't your goal, you would be well advised to change your posting style. Take for example your recent thread on incest. I've read a lot of stuff by Jonathan Haidt. That could have become a very interesting productive discussion on morality had the topic been introduced in a less inflammatory fashion, but it had zero chance of being anything but a fight the way you introduced it.

I expressed no opinion on the Jonathan Haidt thread and just wanted to see what people thought of the scenario. I also linked the article that entirely explained the idea behind hypothetical. Why then would people get upset?
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LargeTuna
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I think a main problem with that argument is I don't see any Feminists or Homosexuals suicide bombing themselves and trying to mass kill people. (I hope I'm not proven wrong)

However I'm not sure which comments you're reffering to specifically, because I'm sure there are nice kind Palestinians that have nothing to do with bad stuff that do not deserve hate. But there are some monsterous ones that probably do.

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String
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Y'all fools is postin' in a troll thread....
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
I think a main problem with that argument is I don't see any Feminists or Homosexuals suicide bombing themselves and trying to mass kill people. (I hope I'm not proven wrong)

They consider themselves to be freedom fighters like Native Americans who scalped whites in the settler era did. Where those Native Americans bad and evil? Were their actions indefensible and would you approve of a white person who kept smearing them and justifying their dispossession?
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quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
However I'm not sure which comments you're reffering to specifically, because I'm sure there are nice kind Palestinians that have nothing to do with bad stuff that do not deserve hate. But there are some monsterous ones that probably do. [/QB]

Oh ok. So it would be okay for me to speak of Jews as "the jews" the same way Lisa speaks of "the arabs"?
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LargeTuna
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If someone is deliberately killing innocent people, not just people in the way, but targeting families I will consider them evil in most cases regardless of their cause.

That's just my opinion in a hypthetical sense and I'd rather not argue with you since so far this thread isn't so bad. Cool?

Edit: I don't feel good about anyone grouping people like that regardless of the term. However Arab as far as I know isn't a religion (it could be?). It's not the same as grouping Muslims, Jews or Catholics in a negative fashoin. It's still not something I agree with, but it's still different. to answer your question I'm sure there are other people that have crossed the line and I don't think it's ok to grou "the arabs" but you tend to push it twice as far over.

[ April 20, 2010, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: LargeTuna ]

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Sean Monahan
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I am posting in this high quality thread.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
However I'm not sure which comments you're reffering to specifically, because I'm sure there are nice kind Palestinians that have nothing to do with bad stuff that do not deserve hate. But there are some monsterous ones that probably do.

Oh ok. So it would be okay for me to speak of Jews as "the jews" the same way Lisa speaks of "the arabs"? [/QB]
No it wouldn't. And its not OK for Lisa to speak of "the arabs" the way she does either.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
[QB] If someone is deliberately killing innocent people, not just people in the way, but targeting families I will consider them evil in most cases regardless of their cause.

So Native Americans who attacked white settlers (who were dispossessing them) were evil? Good to know.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
However I'm not sure which comments you're reffering to specifically, because I'm sure there are nice kind Palestinians that have nothing to do with bad stuff that do not deserve hate. But there are some monsterous ones that probably do.

Oh ok. So it would be okay for me to speak of Jews as "the jews" the same way Lisa speaks of "the arabs"?

No it wouldn't. And its not OK for Lisa to speak of "the arabs" the way she does either. [/QB]
The Jews always do this, the Jews always do that...it's fair play on hatrack as far as precedents are concerned...
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
I expressed no opinion on the Jonathan Haidt thread and just wanted to see what people thought of the scenario. I also linked the article that entirely explained the idea behind hypothetical. Why then would people get upset?

B.S. Unless you suffer from some form some type of autistism spectrum disorder, you knew exactly how people would react to the scenario. If you read the rest of the blog you linked, it even told you exactly how people would react.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
However I'm not sure which comments you're reffering to specifically, because I'm sure there are nice kind Palestinians that have nothing to do with bad stuff that do not deserve hate. But there are some monsterous ones that probably do.

Oh ok. So it would be okay for me to speak of Jews as "the jews" the same way Lisa speaks of "the arabs"?

No it wouldn't. And its not OK for Lisa to speak of "the arabs" the way she does either.

The Jews always do this, the Jews always do that...it's fair play on hatrack as far as precedents are concerned... [/QB]
Which is one of the reasons most of the long time members have left the site. Its not OK. Few if any of us think its OK. Its a violation of the user agreement. Lisa has been repeatedly sanctioned for it and virtually all of us don't like it. A lot of people have publicly expressed that she should be banned from the site. She hasn't been and I and others have given you some reasons why that might be. But it absolutely is not because its OK to bash Arabs at hatrack and not Jews.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
I expressed no opinion on the Jonathan Haidt thread and just wanted to see what people thought of the scenario. I also linked the article that entirely explained the idea behind hypothetical. Why then would people get upset?

B.S. Unless you suffer from some form some type of autistism spectrum disorder, you knew exactly how people would react to the scenario. If you read the rest of the blog you linked, it even told you exactly how people would react.
Of course I read it...that's why I linked it. If I merely wanted to get a reaction I would have just posted the scenario by itself without any explanation. But I linked the explanation, and people still threw a hissy fit. Why?
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The Rabbit
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People have told you why repeatedly and you have essentially ignored ys. It appears that you are more interested in arguing that you are being treated unfairly than getting an answer. That's what makes you a troll and this thread yet another trolling expedition.

If that's unfair and you really do want an answer. Stop arguing and start listening to what people are saying.

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Blayne Bradley
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Place your bets for how long the thread'll last.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
People have told you why repeatedly and you have essentially ignored ys. It appears that you are more interested in arguing that you are being treated unfairly than getting an answer. That's what makes you a troll and this thread yet another trolling expedition.

I'm a troll because I take issue with bad answers to my question. Okay.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by aeolusdallas:
quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
How are you not, under any of your alts?

I created multiple alts (one after the other) for the simple reason that I was unfairly banned for merely stating my opinion. If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.
The multiple account thing alone (sock puppeting) makes you a troll
Only under this name did I not reveal outright who I was. I did with all the other names.
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MightyCow
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You still haven't revealled which regular poster you actually are, but it isn't that hard a guess.
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T:man
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quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
If someone is deliberately killing innocent people, not just people in the way, but targeting families I will consider them evil in most cases regardless of their cause.

Do they believe that those people are innocent. Innocence is subjective.
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steven
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C.U.P., you'd be better served to make your points about KoM. He misbehaved worse than Lisa, for just as long. However, I have to say, although you are clearly trolling, your point about Lisa is valid.
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Christine
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I'm going to state my own unpopular opinion that I've been keeping to myself for a while:

I think many hatrackers are too quick to accuse people of trolling.

There have been many times that I've started reading threads that might have lead to interesting discussions if they hadn't devolved almost immediately into accusations of trolling.

Clive skirts close to the line at times and I can't stand him, but I honestly don't think he's a troll.

The reason is that I think a troll's primary purpose is to derail discussions. Going with the definition above, if you try to limit the definition of a troll to simply inflammatory posts designed to evoke an emotional response, you do end up persecuting people who have controversial opinions. That's not what makes someone a troll. It's hard to even figure out what a real troll's actual opinions are, because they have nothing to do with his posts.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
The reason is that I think a troll's primary purpose is to derail discussions.
I think your definition of a troll is too narrow. A troll's primary purpose is to disrupt a community. Derailing discussions is one way to do that but it isn't the only way.

quote:
Going with the definition above, if you try to limit the definition of a troll to simply inflammatory posts designed to evoke an emotional response, you do end up persecuting people who have controversial opinions. That's not what makes someone a troll. It's hard to even figure out what a real troll's actual opinions are, because they have nothing to do with his posts.
That's just it. I don't think we have any idea about the real opinions of Clive/Cindy/Content/Somalian et al. My interactions suggests he/she posts outrageous opinions just to provoke people. He/she isn't even just playing devil's advocate. He/she is trying to start fights, that's it.
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
The reason is that I think a troll's primary purpose is to derail discussions.
I think your definition of a troll is too narrow. A troll's primary purpose is to disrupt a community. Derailing discussions is one way to do that but it isn't the only way.

The trouble is that it can be very difficult to know a poster's intent. Too often, a community is disrupted because of its own reactions to a poster, rather than by the poster him/herself.
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Samprimary
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so why on earth wasn't clive re-banned? a multiple alt-troll's latest incarnation, obviously trolling, and his threads got locked and deleted but he was allowed to keep posting? Was someone expecting him to obey any guidelines like 'do not post any more threads?'
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TomDavidson
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I imagine it's because PJ can't simply keep banning the guy over and over.
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Misha McBride
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
How are you not, under any of your alts?

I created multiple alts (one after the other) for the simple reason that I was unfairly banned for merely stating my opinion. If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.
So, what other forums do you frequent? You seem awfully familiar, and I don't just mean I think you're Clive Candy (because I know you are). You greatly remind me of a certain poster from a much larger board.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by Misha McBride:
quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
How are you not, under any of your alts?

I created multiple alts (one after the other) for the simple reason that I was unfairly banned for merely stating my opinion. If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.
So, what other forums do you frequent? You seem awfully familiar, and I don't just mean I think you're Clive Candy (because I know you are). You greatly remind me of a certain poster from a much larger board.
What board?
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Misha McBride
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If you're not Hardcore Sax/do it to julia from the SA forums you're his long lost identical twin.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I imagine it's because PJ can't simply keep banning the guy over and over.

Why not? It takes me less than 20 seconds to ban someone, and then their next account, assuming it gets approved at all, takes a week to get out of hellban/approval.
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malanthrop
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I've been called a troll here. I prefer analogies and comparisons to make a point. Using analogies and comparisons apparently makes me a "troll" at times.

To me, a troll is someone who only wants to incite and disrupt. Stating that law A is ignored while law B is strictly enforced, isn't trolling away from the discussion about B. Demanding intellectual consistency and honesty makes me a "troll", all the time.

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SoaPiNuReYe
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c.u.p.,if I were you I'd just stop posting in Lisa's threads from now on. In fact, I'd stop mentioning her in any of your posts. Baby steps can go a long way.
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Raymond Arnold
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mal, you have an incredibly misunderstanding of why people call you a troll.
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
mal, you have an incredibly misunderstanding of why people call you a troll.

enlighten me
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I imagine it's because PJ can't simply keep banning the guy over and over.

Why not? It takes me less than 20 seconds to ban someone, and then their next account, assuming it gets approved at all, takes a week to get out of hellban/approval.
This does not match my understanding of the forum mechanisms. Registering an alt takes about five seconds; clearly it's automatic. Consequently, if someone uses a proxy server to obfuscate their IP, how does it take a week to get a new account? A seriously determined poster cannot be banned permanently, certainly not by the amount of time that PJ can devote to this forum.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I imagine it's because PJ can't simply keep banning the guy over and over.

Why not? It takes me less than 20 seconds to ban someone, and then their next account, assuming it gets approved at all, takes a week to get out of hellban/approval.
You are assuming it is something he can do directly.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
How are you not, under any of your alts?

I created multiple alts (one after the other) for the simple reason that I was unfairly banned for merely stating my opinion. If Lisa can say monstrous things about the Palestinians then it's curious why I can't share my frank opinion on feminists/homosexuality/etc.
You were banned? Well, I'm glad to know that something was done about you. Less happy to know that you intentionally violated the ban. I would hope that PJ would give you a lifetime ban for it, but I doubt we'll be so lucky.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
... Consequently, if someone uses a proxy server to obfuscate their IP, how does it take a week to get a new account? A seriously determined poster cannot be banned permanently, certainly not by the amount of time that PJ can devote to this forum.

+1
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
Only under this name did I not reveal outright who I was. I did with all the other names.

You didn't with Cindy.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
I think a main problem with that argument is I don't see any Feminists or Homosexuals suicide bombing themselves and trying to mass kill people. (I hope I'm not proven wrong)

They consider themselves to be freedom fighters like Native Americans who scalped whites in the settler era did. Where those Native Americans bad and evil? Were their actions indefensible and would you approve of a white person who kept smearing them and justifying their dispossession?
Idiot. The native Americans learned scalping from the Europeans, first of all. Second of all, it's the Jews who are the natives.
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malanthrop
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Banned? I take it as a compliment I haven't been banned. If I were, I wouldn't create a different account and pretend to be someone else. That is definitely "trolling".
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