posted
Recently moved into a new apartment in NYC. I have 3 other roommates. Two are (relatively new) friends of mine, and we hang out in each others rooms with some frequency. One I don't know as well and e doesn't spend much time in the apartment.
As far as I can tell, the two people I know well don't care much about the environment for its own sake, and to the extent that they do care, they assume it's already screwed over pretty irrevocably, or it will be eventually and there's too much human inertia in that direction for their actions to matter.
I'm trying to manuver things so that we collectively avoid as much unnecessary waste as possible, without costing me too much good will with my roommates.
Part of the problem is that I'm not actually that educated about what things are really worth worrying about and which aren't. (i.e. I've heard that recycling isn't actually very effective, although recyling is probably also one of the easier things to make sure get done. I might even be able to arrange a compost since there's a lot garden across the street, as long as I'm the one bothering to carry it over there.)
We've been accumulating lots of paper grocery bags, and they weren't sure what to do with them. I noted that you can reuse them and save 10 cents per bag. They said "Yeah, but that kind of money honestly is barely worth worrying about - not worth the time or effort." I noted that it costs about the same effort to throw out the bags as it does to put them into the little street cart when you go to the grocery store. The conversation ended very shortly afterwards and I couldn't tell whether they cared much. But the fact that this was a question that needed debating didn't bode well.
There's also arguing over air conditioning, which I think I've already expended too much good will on - one roommate would keep things at 60 degrees left to his own devices, I kept it running at 80 over the summer and don't see the need for it much at all right now. We're compromising at 72 but it's left on pretty much all the time.
And then there's things like cleanliness, which I think I'm going to have to avoid bringing up if I want to make a big deal about environmental concerns.
Ideally I'll find ways to either lead by example or make the easiest thing to do also the least wantonly consumptive, rather than constantly nagging. I don't trust myself to try and get them to care about environment issues for their own sake without coming across as obnoxious.
[ September 28, 2011, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
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posted
Fair enough. I was (slightly) joking. Is there any category of "thing I could do that is likely to result in less waste" that doesn't fall under "manipulation" or "thing-that-is-otherwise-likely-to-cause-problems?"
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posted
The air conditioning angle would seem easy-the difference between 80 and 72 is, after all, expensive particularly given that it's left on all the time. You could try a straightforward, polite conversation about utility bills and changing the proportion.
(When I say easy, I mean there's a simple direct economic angle.)
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Is there any category of "thing I could do that is likely to result in less waste" that doesn't fall under "manipulation" or "thing-that-is-otherwise-likely-to-cause-problems?"
That depends too much on your roommates and the apartment setup and previous agreements. For example, I would set the thermostat higher -- but that is already the result of negotiation, so scratch that.
I find paper bags very useful, so we have a place where we keep them. Plastic bags even more so (we use them as mini-garbage bags in cans all over the apartment), so again, we have a place for them. Both are right near where groceries get unpacked, so putting the bags away is fairly painless.
To what degree either of these things is environmentally useful I don't know. Presumably better than just tossing them unused though, neh?
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Don't get me wrong, I grew up in Michigan, so I'm no stranger to cold, but to CHOOSE to live at that constant temperature INDOORS is crazy. I enjoy a cool evening walk as much as the next person, but blasting the AC to get it that cold blows my mind.
60 degrees outdoors is fine when you have the sun shining on you.
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posted
Well, he mentioned that they set it to 78 but that in practice that pretty much means that the AC is always on. So setting it to 60 might not actually be much of a temperature difference, just the difference between it being almost always on and always on,.
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We definitely intend to use the bags (as trash bags if nothing else), but we were rapidly acquiring them far faster than we could ever use them.
quote:You might have more traction about air conditioning if you make it about money; person who wants it coldest has to pay the electric bill.
quote:For example, I would set the thermostat higher -- but that is already the result of negotiation, so scratch that.
Yeah, I think I already haggled myself into a corner there and I don't think I should bring it up, at least for a month or so, when the electrical bill comes in. I think we'll only have another month or so of using AC before winter enroaches.. We can look at the price difference and bring it up again in the spring.
quote:60 degrees? Fahrenheit?
Don't get me wrong, I grew up in Michigan, so I'm no stranger to cold, but to CHOOSE to live at that constant temperature INDOORS is crazy
Ironically, I find myself thinking about the Parable of the Dog and the Lizard. Which is supposed to be about privilege, but is sort of literally relevant.
I think the cold-guy (who also likes sitting alone in near total darkness, we jokingly refer to him as the cave man) SHOULD make some effort to adjust to warmer temperatures. But I think asking him to make the transition I'd prefer is... genuinely asking a lot of him all at once.
I also DO understand what it's like to prefer it to be cold, but then bundle up and feel nice and cozy, which is part of his preference.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: We definitely intend to use the bags (as trash bags if nothing else), but we were rapidly acquiring them far faster than we could ever use them.
When we have too many paper bags, I add them to the recycling. We never have too many plastic bags, or at least, not for long. (My kids use them daily as lunch bags too.) When we have a temporary surplus, I have a backup storage location.
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posted
That may be what we end up doing, but I've been hearing lately that recycling isn't the greatest of solutions. (Haven't done any followup research). I don't know that this particular issue is the biggest of deals, but default response of "meh, just throw it all out" as the solution to the issue just gave me a sinking feeling about the set of priorities I was dealing with.
My experience with previous roommate situations is for plastic bags to tend to accumulate ridiculously (no children to send off with bagged lunch).
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posted
In all honesty, the real solution is to not have roommates. But living alone is awfully eco-unfriendly in and of itself. . . .
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Living alone is not financially practical, but even if it were, I've determined that I prefer to live with roommates - I like being able to come home and have people to talk to. Only possible downside is that before, if I wanted my weekly nutritionally-necessary-alotment-of-social-activity (yes, this is a thing), I had to go outside to get it, and get it from a wider variety of sources.
Now I can just stay at home all weekend without feeling socially deprived, which is sort of like eating the exact same food all the time - not necessarily bad, but not great either. So far I'm doing okay but I've noticed myself gravitating towards it.
Plus, if they weren't living with me, they'd be off doing whatever their default-consumptive-habits are.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I've been hearing lately that recycling isn't the greatest of solutions.
Agreed, but likely better than just tossing it. Especially since clean paper is one of the better things to recycle, I think.
It's not just the kids with lunches. That's about 5-15 a week (they sometimes use insulated bags, but then they have to remember to bring them back). Mini-garbage in the kitchen is at least another dozen (it gets changed at least once a day, and often more), and mini-garbages in bedrooms, etc. another 5-10 per week. (Lots of allergies, among other reasons.) So probably 25-30 a week. (Yikes, that is a lot.)
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Agreed. Obviously if you have enough uses for bags, it's not a problem, but so far we haven't been.
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Depends on what you're recycling I guess. Failure to recycle electronics is one of the most distressingly increasing trends in pollution and waste, both because of the chemicals that leech out of them, and because they're full of valuable precious metals.
quote:Which, the dog/lizard thing?
Yes.
I'd never conceived of the idea that clearly before.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Agreed. Obviously if you have enough uses for bags, it's not a problem, but so far we haven't been.
Several grocery stores in my neighborhood have places to drop off bundles of plastic grocery bags for recycling. Might be worth checking if any in your area do -- targeted recycling is more likely to be useful, I would think.
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posted
I've been pretty conflicted on the recycling of electronics actually after learning that there's a big traffic in smuggled electronic waste making its way to China and India.
So I've been debating whether it is in fact better to dump it in Canada and risk leeching rather than leave it at "legitimate" drop-offs and risk having them turn around and ship it off to some developing country.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
My 3-4 computers do the job of heating my room so well that I never turn it on during the winter. In Canada.
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Use plastic bags. It uses 7 times more energy to manufacture a paper bag. And it doesn't kill trees.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: My 3-4 computers do the job of heating my room so well that I never turn it on during the winter. In Canada.
Why do you have 3-4 computers on at the same time?
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: My 3-4 computers do the job of heating my room so well that I never turn it on during the winter. In Canada.
Why do you have 3-4 computers on at the same time?
To heat the room for free, duh.
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quote:I also DO understand what it's like to prefer it to be cold, but then bundle up and feel nice and cozy, which is part of his preference.
Do I understand you correctly that your roommate likes to run the air conditioning at 60°F and then bundle up to keep warm? This kind of wanton wastefulness makes me despair for the human race.
[ September 28, 2011, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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posted
Do all of you work on a more or less standard 8 - 5 shift so that no one is at home during the day? If so, you can probably buy and install a programmable thermostat for relatively low cost that you can set to automatically turn off the AC (or turn down the heat in winter) during the hours when no one is home. The investment will pay for itself in lower utility bills in no time so you could sell the idea on money savings alone without trying to appeal to their ecological conscience.
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I do turn off the AC before I leave in the morning, but the 60°F guy gets home first, usually sets it to 68, and then I turn it to 72 when I get home. I may have made it sound worse than it is,
Both roommates have above-average-ability-to-change-their-mind-if-presented with a good argument, but as I said, do not currently value the environment much for its own sake, and are not convinced that the effort required to change is worth it to themselves. They're also both either fairly wealthy or expect to be soon after graduating, so I'm not even sure the monetary incentive is going to matter too much.
I think I can probably CAN make a good argument for them to alter their ecological values, but it would have to be pretty comprehensive, with a lot of inferential distance to close, and if I screw it up the first time it'll probably get harder on successive attempts.
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I think I've got a handle on what actions I'll actually be taking with my roommates, but I'd still like to discuss ways of convincing someone to conserve resources when the negative-externalities seem distant and your individual conservation feels useless.
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During an Arizona summer you may feel more inclined to keep the AC running night and day, not sixty degrees mind you but on nonetheless. In apartment complexes where you don't pay for utilities yourself it is extremely common for everyone to leave the AC on, which inevitably causes units that cool several apartments to fail and everyone has to sweat it out for a couple of days while waiting for a new AC unit.
I'm more of a desert rat than most, last summer I lived by myself and never touched the AC or heater once throughout my one year lease, and I sleep during the day through the hottest times. The argument of wasteful air conditioning use is a hard pitch to someone who lives in 115 degree weather, but I understand the reactions I've seen already seen on this topic.
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I'm not against AC in general, but I was comfortable leaving it at 80 over the summer.
I'm thinking of saying "look, you guys do whatever you want with the AC, but I don't really want to pay for that portion of the bill this month." I'm not sure how the best way to go about that is. If we can determine electricity usage with and without AC, but with our various computers and stuff turned on, then we can get a crude percentage.
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SO, I'm extremely efficient in hot climates, and extremely inefficient in cold climates. I bake myself.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: ... I'm not sure how the best way to go about that is. If we can determine electricity usage with and without AC, but with our various computers and stuff turned on, then we can get a crude percentage.
For example, a room air conditioner 24/7 costs $68.07 per month. You may need to change the rate up or down and add in any taxes or extra fees though.
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My air conditioner is a 5000 BTU Frigidaire, which at least advertises itself as very energy efficient. Haven't done the research to see how it stacks up against the competition.
[ September 28, 2011, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
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quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Use plastic bags. It uses 7 times more energy to manufacture a paper bag. And it doesn't kill trees.
But plastic bags require petroleum and natural gas for production, which are non-renewable resources. Trees, at least, can be sustainably "harvested". They also take about a thousand years to decompose (and the toxic residue never really does leave the ecosystem).
RA- People with dogs in NYC are always in need of plastic bags for poop pick-up. Ask your neighbors! And also- have you checked out the Union Square Farmer's market? They have a compost drop-off three times a week, and I've seen a used electronics station once or twice. But do whatever you can by just setting a good example!
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posted
We WOULD be better off if there were no plastic bags. Paper bags may take more energy to create, but plastic bags are a perennial scourge. They NEVER go away. You don't see a lot of that in countries that do a good job of keeping populated areas pretty clean, but when you go to any not-well-off part of the world, you start noticing that there's plastic bags everywhere, choking rivers, bushes, roadsides, and the like.
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quote:I think I've got a handle on what actions I'll actually be taking with my roommates, but I'd still like to discuss ways of convincing someone to conserve resources when the negative-externalities seem distant and your individual conservation feels useless.
If you find a good answer to that question, please share. Resource conservation is a classic example of the tragedy of the commons.
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quote:If the technology becomes more affordable this could be a smart investment.
Air knives have been around for a long time. They aren't very efficient, but they are pretty cool. I used to use one in a situation where a fan would have been an ingnition source, but I can't see any advantage to them aside from the cool factor. Certainly not price.
And as for plastic bags, I agree with Samp.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: If we can determine electricity usage with and without AC, but with our various computers and stuff turned on, then we can get a crude percentage.
posted
Regarding plastic bags, I disagree for two reasons: - Plastics are shifting to corn (from petroleum) - Petroleum will be consumed until it becomes too costly to consume anymore. Using it in applications that don't create particulates is preferable to that same petroleum being used in cars. Use paper = more available petroleum = lower prices = more petroleum purchased and burned. Basic micro, really.
I'll agree to disagree. And to continue using plasttic.
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Plastic bags are a major problem in the oceans. Over 200 marine species, many of them endangered or threatened, are adversely by plastic garbage.
Degradable plastic bags have become quite common but they don't solve the problem because they don't break down into small enough pieces so they just end up being eaten by smaller animals.
I personally hate the degradable bags since I often use the grocery bags to store things. The degradable bags make an awful mess when they start breaking into pieces.
We use grocery bags as trash can liners but there is no way we can use as many as we get, even though I use reusable cloth bags at least half the time.
Corn packaging isn't a panacea either. It takes a lot of oil to grow corn and in a world where food prices are skyrocketing, we really need to consider whether it's wise or ethical to be turning food into plastic packaging.
(Remember that the uprisings in Egypt, Libya and the rest of the middle East were triggered by rising food prices).
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Ray, You say your roommates don't care much about the environment or prices. What do they care about? One of the ways to get people to care about ecological problems is to help them see how these problems are connected to the things they do care about.
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Hmmm. Not sure that last argument is a good one considering that many people *liked* the uprisings in Egypt, Libya, and the rest of the Middle East.
Probably best to focus on something else.
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quote:Hmmm. Not sure that last argument is a good one considering that many people *liked* the uprisings in Egypt, Libya, and the rest of the Middle East.
If people like the fact that millions of human beings are joining violent revolts because they can't afford to buy food, they either don't fully understand the situation, they are ignorant of history or they're sociopaths. If its one of the first two, they can be taught. It its the latter, this whole exercise is kind of pointless.
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Well, consider the other point of view, particularly that of the Arabs that are particularly happy about the Arab Spring.
If you asked them, would you prefer that the US government subsidize food in order to ensure that the tinpot dictators that that the US is friendly with can continue to suppress the spread of democracy, I don't think that the answer would be remotely be clear.
Or in another way of looking at it, food riots were an important contributor to the French Revolution. Would we really be better off if that had been suppressed and we never got the Enlightenment and many of our ideas about liberty, nationalism, and democracy which ended up inspiring among other things, the American revolution?
Or consider the fact that a mere couple of years ago, groups like the Cato Institute and Oxfam in response to a food crisis advocated for the removal of subsidies and thus *higher* food prices in order to promote local production.
quote:In a Cato Institute analysis called "The False Promise of Gleneagles," the author, Marian Tupy, points out that trade barriers and agricultural subsidies do more harm to African agriculture than direct aid could ever offset. He cites the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's reckoning that Western agriculture subsidies totaled $365 billion in 2007. Slashing those subsidies and ending tariffs is the way to make Africa self-sufficient--or a net exporter--in agriculture.
quote:"Rich countries' farm subsidies have systematically undermined production in poor countries. While prices are high they should take the chance to end the unfair subsidies once and for all. Aid should not distract from the urgent need for fundamental root and branch reform in the EU and US,” Heap said.
Lastly, one could look at the plight of say, Chinese peasants whose incomes are having a tough time keeping up with city dwellers and who welcome increases in food prices because more money gets in their pockets when food is valued more highly.
It's a quick knee-jerk response to see people starving and call for lower food prices, particularly for food provided from the US and into developing countries. But, I think when one really sits down and thinks about it, these kinds of reactions may actually be harmful and counter-productive.
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quote:Or in another way of looking at it, food riots were an important contributor to the French Revolution. Would we really be better off if that had been suppressed and we never got the Enlightenment and many of our ideas about liberty, nationalism, and democracy which ended up inspiring among other things, the American revolution?
Perhaps you are not aware that the Enlightment and the American Revolution preceded the French Revolution and thus could not have been results of it. If you were trying to persuade me that people who "like the fact that millions of human beings are joining violent uprisings because they can't afford food", are not ignorant of the relevant history, you just failed big time. Food shortages played an important role in both the French and Russian revolutions, both of which lead to considerable human suffering and oppressive totalitarian governments -- not increased liberty.
Based on the history of violent uprisings, its way to early to judge whether or not Arabs are happy about the results. An awful lot of people who supported and celebrated the Iranian revolution, were fleeing the country only a few months later.
It's also important to recognize that even if the recent revolutions in the middle east do lead to greater liberty and prosperity for people in the region, it does not necessarily follow that people rioting because they can't afford to eat is not a problem. One can rationally be simultaneously hopeful that the Arab spring will turn out to benefit people of the region and deeply concerned about the destabilizing influence of food shortages.
quote:If you asked them, would you prefer that the US government subsidize food in order to ensure that the tinpot dictators that that the US is friendly with can continue to suppress the spread of democracy, I don't think that the answer would be remotely be clear.
I don't remember making any comment either for or against US subsidizing food or farming. My comment was about the wisdom of using food to make plastic. Those issues are not synonymous by any means. Food security is a complex issue that involves lots of factors.
[ September 30, 2011, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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