posted
This'll be my...third time, I think, posting this story (is that against the rules?), but after revisions and reworkings, I think I've got the penultimate product. After this, I'm finished with it forever, and will begin submitting it. Any thoughts would be appreciated, especially negative (but constructive!) ones.
And so, without further ado, the first 13 lines:
“There the creature lies,” Caleb said. “For four days I’ve watched him; he does not venture forth during the day. He likely sleeps now. An opportune time to attack.”
“What do you suggest, Caleb?” asked John Carter, a man on his seventh hunt overall, yet only his first this month. Selections were slim these days, each dragon they encountered seemingly younger than the last. So young, in fact, that their bounty was hardly enough to split between the thirteen men, let alone their families.
“Two shall go in, provoke the dragon, draw him out,” Caleb said. “You and I, John, shall be the two. When the dragon comes out, we will ambush him. If possible, try to disable his tail. Next to his fiery breath, it is his greatest weapon.”
“Also,” said John. “If you can, cut his tendons below the calves. It will disable him. But be cautious. Such creatures possess a speed borne of the darkest and deepest hell. They move almost too quickly to see.”
“This doesn’t seem right,” said Thomas, a young man on his first hunt. Truthfully, Caleb would rather have left the boy at home, but the blacksmith he apprenticed for had insisted. “He sits there peacefully, on his own. He has bothered no one, and feeds from forests beyond our farms. He has taken no animals, destroyed no crops, yet we come to destroy him?”
Caleb gave a fatherly chuckle. “Young Thomas,” he said. “It is not that he hasn’t disturbed us, it is the ever-present threat he represents.”
CVG
PS--I've a tendency for info dumps. If you spot any, please, scream and point, like a nerd asking for homework for the weekends.
Not that I'd equate you with nerds, I mean...
PPS--As titles are the bane of my existance--like many of you, I'm sure--any and all suggestions would be welcomed with open arms.
[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited May 23, 2004).]
quote:“Also,” said John. “If you can, cut his tendons below the calves. It will disable him. But be cautious. Such creatures possess a speed borne of the darkest and deepest hell. They move almost too quickly to see.”
This line reads as though its John talking to Caleb, who seems to be the most experienced of them... at which point John wouldn't be telling him something so blindingly obvious. I assume the idea is that he's saying this for the benefit of the inexperienced people with them, but it would probably seem less odd if you made that clear.
posted
I remember this. It is much better. The only suggestion I'd make is this: In the following,
quote:Selections were slim these days, each dragon they encountered seemingly younger than the last. So young, in fact, that their bounty was hardly enough to split between the thirteen men, let alone their families.
the "in fact" seems to take us out of character thought. You might want to replace the comma after 'days' with a period, start new sentence with 'each,' replace the period after 'last' with a comma, and go into the rest without the 'in fact.'
All in all, it reads as if you've put some time in here. Nice going.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited May 23, 2004).]
But seriously, no. The only ERB I've ever read was Tarzan of the Apes--it's an excellent book; I wholly recommend it), but if I can be spoken of in the same breath as Edgar Rice Burroughs, I'm honored.
Kolona--I don't want to sound defensive (even though I will; you'll probably see this as me crossing my arms, pouting and saying "You're wrong!" Please don't) but I'm going to disagree with you. This tidbit is from Caleb's POV. At least, it's suppose to be. I did something wrong if that doesn't come across.
But I'll agree with you about the run-on sentence. It flows better your way.
Thanks, though, for the comments. I did put a lot of time into it. It's my baby. And, like any child, I can't wait for it to mature, so I can put boot to heinie and kick it out of my house.
Any other suggestions?
[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited May 23, 2004).]
quote:... but if I can be spoken of in the same breath as Edgar Rice Burroughs, I'm honored.
Ah. Well, my point is that the name is probably a distraction for anyone who's familiar with the John Carter of Mars series. I've never even read the series, and I found the name a distraction. That's why I asked if it was intentional. If it's not, and you're not too attached to the name, I'd suggest changing it.
posted
Actually, cvgurau, although it is Caleb's POV and technically okay, the 'in fact' is borderline. I stumbled there because I thought momentarily it was authorial voice. You won't be damned if you keep it in, but since that was what jumped out at me, I thought I'd mention it.
I should have added to change 'seemingly' to 'seemed.' Of course, now we're into weak verbs with 'seemed' period. Well, you could tweak to remove some of the weaker verbs -- maybe instead of 'their bounty was hardly enough to split,' something like 'their bounty seldom sufficient to split.' (With mainly conversation in your posted segment, I can't tell if you have runaway weak verbs. )
posted
CV, it may be your intent that this be read as Caleb's POV, but there is absolutely nothing in the text to support that contention. The closest you come is "Caleb would rather have left the boy at home," which you follow with "but the blacksmith he apprenticed for had insisted." That second line makes it clear that this information is not unique to Caleb.
I'm still not enthused about the anachronistic use of last names. I was previously willing to accept that you might have some reason for opening with a POVless dialogue segment, but having read the story, I found no reason whatsoever for it. Further, I think that you should cast this in Thomas' POV rather than Caleb's, if you get around to putting it in POV.
posted
It seems like 3rd person om.. And actuly, I think that fits very well. Stories written around the middle ages tended to be in 3rd person om. if I'm not mistaken.
I also want to say that their mode of speech is excellent. It really gives it an Middle Ages feel.
posted
Well you asked about info-dumps and this one screams out to me, although with a caveat...
quote: ...asked John Carter, a man on his seventh hunt overall, yet only his first this month...
The caveat is that if you are going for a period feel, and I mean Flash Gordon era not Middle Ages, then I think this helps establish that tone otherwise it gives it a stilted quality. For me that single phrase gives it more of a "Land of the Lost" feel than a Middle Ages sensibility.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I'm afraid that, to me, every single thing that John and Caleb say to each other is something the other should already know. They're both experienced dragon hunters, they both know how to disable the things, they both know which parts are most dangerous, and it seems extremely unlikely that Caleb would have waited until now (since it's obvious that the existence of the dragon is already known) to say that the thing has been sleeping for four days. So I'm afraid the entire thing seems like an infodump to me. Since the characters already know all this stuff, the information would be better supplied to the reader in bits and pieces during their thoughts (or Caleb's thoughts, if this is really supposed to be his POV) while they attack it.
Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Geeze, and when he said John Carter the first thing I thought of was ER -- he's the main character on that show.
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:So I'm afraid the entire thing seems like an infodump to me. Since the characters already know all this stuff, the information would be better supplied to the reader in bits and pieces during their thoughts (or Caleb's thoughts, if this is really supposed to be his POV) while they attack it.
quote:I'm afraid that, to me, every single thing that John and Caleb say to each other is something the other should already know.
That would be a problem, if they were only speaking to each other. The real problem is that it's not clear until after they've spoken that they are speaking for the benefit of the newbies on the dragon hunt.
I would suggest setting the scene a little more before the dialogue. OSC has receommended against opening with dialogue, because dialogue is usually more meaningful when we have knowledge of the characters involved. (NOTE: I'm not saying that one should never begin with dialogue, just that the technique has a weakness.)
For example, you could have Caleb look over the men he will be leading in the hunt, assessing them. That way, we know there are some on the hunt with no experience, so it will make sense for Caleb and John to say the things they do.
posted
Yeah, and it will establish that he's the POV.
Still, that leaves you with the problem of killing off the POV character in the first scene (unless you've fundamentally altered the plot). Make Thomas the POV character from the start, he's right there and you already use him as a major POV character in the story.
posted
I've been busy lately and kind of picking through which lines to read and not....but since this one keeps coming up to the top I finally gave in and read it.
As I read, I figured that by now, everyone would have repeated the obvious flaws over and over again. Strangely, only rickfisher seems to have done so, and then others came back and disagreed with him.
In my humble opinion, and maybe I'm wrong with so many who didn't see these problems, the entire intro read like a big old fashioned, "As you nkow, John." I don't care if there were newbies in the party or not, you odn't have this discussion outside the dragon's lair, you have it back in the village. In fact, even back in the village it wouldn't have gone like this at all. The more experiences hunters wuold have provided more details, possibly even giving the newbies some rudamentary training. So this conversation, in my opinion, would never have happened at all.
I'm not as hard-core about establishing POV in the first line as some others, but I will admit, this read like omni to me. I think it is mostly due to the dialogue. We have no intimate contact with anyone's mind. In fact, the only non-dialogue segments of this also have the feel of info dumps.
I do like the moral dilemna that the newbie presented. I'm still not sure if it would have happened right outside the dragon's lair, but it gave me a feel for what the rest of the story might be about and I liked that.
I'll go ahead and back up rickfisher's advice...this needs to start with a descriptive action scene. To be honest, I'm not even established in time and place. Are we in a forest? Just outside a cave? That's where I picture dragons but I could be wrong. How did these men arrive? Do they have horses nearby?
When you use third person POV you have a wonderful vehicle for providing information without making it sound like an info dump....the POV character's head. You can tell us all about their prep work...he can be nervous that the newbies might not remember the plan, and thus you can tell us what the plan is (all about the tale and the tendons).
Anyway, I'm trying to be constructive here. Like I said, in light of all the other opinions that did not touch this point,I'm feeling confused. One possible explanation is that i haven't been influenced by previous versions of this story (that I know of) and previous influence can seriously alter the feedback you get on a piece.
As for titles....it depends upon where you're going. If it's got the word "dragon" in the title my husband will probably pick it up.
posted
Yeah, some background is probably fair here.
First off, I'll say again that I'm not enthused over the dialogue based structure of this opening. Or the lack of POV. Or...okay, I've said what I'm not enthused about.
Now for the background...Caleb and John are blowing it out their smokeholes. They don't know jack about hunting dragons. As they proceed to demonstrate in the next scene, which is one important reason that I suggest Thomas be the POV character. Taken in that light, this conversation has remarkable versimilitude. But the lack of any real POV denies the reader a chance to see what is really going on in this scene.
posted
Okay. Again, good points all. I'm kind of getting beaten over the head with this little snippet, but that's good. I'm bein' learned.
So here's what I'll do: make Thomas the POV character and put this whole speech about an hour in the past, when they're at the village. (I feel kind of like God, at this point, but I digress.) It's Thomas' opinion that John (who I've renamed James 'cuz of the whole ER John Carter thing) and Caleb are a little full of it. This leads into his dilemma, and his conversation with Caleb, which also happened at the village.
I can probably drop the next scene where Caleb 'n' (the now) James are talking about their misfortunes, and how this dragon will keep them well fed for the winter. (Ew. I just read that. Okay, keep them financed for the winter, I suppose.) Give it to Thomas to rationalize his needing to kill this sentient, and in Tom's opinion, somewhat beautiful creature (because he doesn't really want to) and it makes for a decent bit of characterization. It'll also save my word count, probably, which at this point is too high for a short story (8700+).
I like Christine's comment about the rudimentary training. Makes sense. Makes me feel like an idiot, because I didn't think of it first, but it makes sense. It could go in the village scene. The noobs are going through jerky practiced motions, while the more experience give wise-sounding tips.
Sorry. I'm just thinking out loud, a little. Feel free to disagree.
CVG
PS--or rather, thinking out...uh, electronically, I guess. *shrug*
posted
OK, James Carter. You know, I instinctively wanted to shorten that to Jim. Have you considered changing the Carter part? Posts: 626 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I suppose I could change the Carter moniker, but...well, he's a carter. That's what he does. He...carts. Like Smith? And...okay, smith's all I have, but still.
posted
Some other old occupation-based last names: Miller, Cooper, Fletcher, Cutler, Farmer, Wright, Plumber, Taylor, Shoemaker, Wheeler, Barber
Those were off the top of my head. Here's a list from a web page ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0122842/stories/2003/08/24/surnames.html ) collecting them: Abbott Archer Ashburner Baker Berger Binder Bishop Blocker Bookbinder Bowman Brewer Bride Butcher Canemaker Carpenter Carter Cartman Cartwright Chamberlain Chandler Churchman Clark Collier Cook Cooper Currier Cutler Cutter Deacon Dean Doctor Draper Drayer Driver Farmer Fisher Fletcher Forester Fowler Fuller Gardener Glazer Glover Goldsmith Grainger Groom Hooper Hopper Hornblower Horner Hunter Joiner Jump King Lander Landsman Leadbeater Makepeace Major Marriner Mason Mechanic Miller Oliver Ostler Palmer? Parker Parson Player Ploughman Ploughwright Plumber Pope Porter Potter Priest Prince Rider Roper Sadler Sawyer Sayer Scribner Sergeant Severn? Shepherd Shoemaker Singer Smith Speaker Stringer Stockman Tanner Taylor Teller Turner Victor Wagoner Walker Waller Ward Warden Warner Weaver Webster? Wheeler Wheelwright Woolman Wright Yeoman
posted
Perhaps you could work a character's name in there? Caleb's Dragon? Or the name of the place the dragon lives (e.g. The Dragon of Dungy Head, although obviously not that because I don't think you want people to burst out laughing when they read it!)? Posts: 626 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
After some rather exhaustive brainstorming, I've come up with the following titles, per B.W. Clough's Bulletinarticle, the Theory and Practice of Titles. Please, tell me what you think.
1. The Dragon Who Changed 2. In The Dark 3. In The Dark, Dank Cave 4. A Wizard’s Wish 5. A Meeting of the Minds 6. The Dragon Helcorax (or conversely, Helcorax the Dragon) 7. “A Noble Goal,” Said the Dragon 8. The First Step 9. A Play for Peace
And that's all I have. Feel free to contribute. Personally, I'm fond of #3, but I'm open to other options.
posted
I also like 5 and 7, although 3 is nice. 8 and 9 are nice, but not particularly specific-- the generalish kind of titles that fat fantasy novels tend to end up with.
Posts: 253 | Registered: Jan 2004
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It is much better. The only suggestion I'd make is this: In the following,
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