The warmth of the sun kisses my skin, and slowly nudges me out of my sleep. I wake and see that I have been sleeping at the lip of the ocean, where the waves froth up and spew all that they have churned up only to recede and repeat. I’m locked in a gaze. Stuck in a stare without intention, with out purpose. I just watch mesmerized. By the tenth sea junk spewing wave I realize there’s absolutely no sound to match what I am seeing.

I crane my neck. Perhaps a better angle will allow sound to bounce in to my ear until it registers a sound to my brain. I tilt and pause. Nothing. Where is that sound? I want to hear that low echo of the ocean that sound only a conch shell could capture and take with it away from the sea. That sound you don’t know is missing until it’s gone. For the first time there

Check out the Turkey City Lexicon.

http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html

A list of easily avoided mistakes.

The prose is a little over-wrought for my taste.

Regarding your story--he wakes on a beach (you take along time to say this) where waves do their thing. It takes him ten waves to realise he can't hear sh*t? I would have noticed within micro seconds--most people would.

Think about how you would react to waking and finding you deaf--I presume he went to sleep by the ocean or is that also a surprise? If so, he seems fairly relaxed about the whole thing.

I wouldn't read on at this stage as the writing has room for improvement.

Yes, waking up is cliche yadda yadda yadda. If you can find a different way to start it great. There are some editors that dislike the waking up opening...but I doubt seriously they ALL do. So if you have another idea for a way to begin use it, otherwise...if this is how it starts this is how it starts.

Theres not a lot going on but it has a flow and some atomosphere going. I would want to know pretty soon why the character takes so long to notice the lack of sound, but it didn't distract me.

The cliche waking up part has already been mentioned. It feels very surreal like he's doing drugs and is like "cool the sound turned off man." I think this is because he has no real emotion to waking up and being deaf besides fondly reminicing about the sound in shells. It feels more poetic than narrative at this point. It definetly has some nice imagery.

But what they hey, I'm new, too...

"Woke up and discovered" is just as legit as "laid down and pondered," "stopped walking when he noticed," etc.

I don’t have a problem with waking as an opener, as long as I know how waking in this situation is related to what happens next.

In this case, I can't be sure if he was surprised to find himself on the beach.

It usually tends to mirror the creative process of the writer (a particular cliche, less seen these days, is "waking up in a white room" which was, subconsciously, the writer looking at the blank piece of paper in the typewriter...). The writer is "waking up" into the story. It's fine to get you started on a draft, but generally it's then wise to examine that draft and see whether the story ACTUALLY starts when the protagonist wakes up, or whether it should start before that, or after that. Most stories start with an inciting moment, and it's easy to mistake "waking up" (because it's a transition from not-doing-something to doing-something) as an inciting moment. But it rarely, actually, is.

As oposed to the rather definitive borderline absolute "this is a newbie mistake you should avoid" approach.

Now of course some will take that as a lack of gratitude for their feedback, but it isn't. I realize they are suggestions I realize the final choice is of course the authors.

I just think it would be better to phrase it as a suggestion rather than a near-imperative.

Edit: I'm not talking about any one person, either on this thread or elsewhere. I know many disagree but I believe that especially on internet forums its usually best to qualify what you say and make it VERY clear what your intentions are since the medium makes it inherently harder.

However, I feel it must be pointed out that both of those authors had already made their name by the time they sold those works. There is, I'm afraid, a big difference between what you can do as a novice writer and what you can do when you have established a reputation. Editors will trust a name they know to take a familiar situation and move from it into an interesting story. They are less likely to be trusting of a newcomer's ability to do the same. Some editors do read to the end of every submission they receive. The majority do not, and some, particularly at the pro level, are sufficiently weighed down with contributions that they are arguably looking for ANY excuse to put one submission down so that they can move on to the next.

It sucks, but it happens, and if you are a newcomer you need to try and weight the odds as heavily in your favour as possible, because they ARE stacked against you (both in terms of pure statistics - see duotrope for submissions vs acceptances at most markets - and in terms of familiar names vs unfamiliar names - some editors may claim they read "blind" but it's a rare human being who, as an editor, could say "hey, I'm not fussed about this story by the guy who's published a dozen successful novels and won three awards, I'll take this other story by someone no-one's ever heard of instead").

The advice in here, even if couched as "definitive", IS only advice. It is well-meant, and in some cases hard-won, but anyone is free to ignore it if they so wish or choose. And who knows, if they sell their stories after having gone against the advice of others, then well done to them, and they can pass on what they've learned, too.

I don't doubt the people on this forum who insist editors hate clichés, I really don't. But if editors DON'T like waking up intros, then what type of intros DO they like.

Seriously, if you claim to have the inside story on story marketability, and if you're going to post 350 words of wisdom on this subject, then tell us how to get published, not just how NOT to get published; how to tickle an editor, not just how to irritate an editor.

With your level of success, I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to learn something from you. But if you claim to have a publishing ratio of 30/50, an impressive record in any fiction genre, and if you're going to post about marketability, by all means tell us how you did it.

You don't post intros from your own stories. Your Live Journal page doesn't include any of your stories. You offer criticisms but not rewrite examples. Your feedback is almost always negative. When are you going to provide us with that missing piece of the puzzle and tell us how It's done?

This is based on your comments on strings with my intros, the intros I critiqued, and the intros of writers whose work I'm familiar with. Granted, I'm new on this forum, but I think I've discovered a pattern.

If you'll notice a pattern in my critiques, on Hatrack and on Critters, I try to emphasize what's effective.

I've read and still read a lot of literature, so I think I know what's effective and what's not effective. I'm a new and unpublished writer, so I don't even pretend to be knowledgeable about what's marketable. I've seen lots of Turkey City type lists. Strange Horizons has one. Making such lists is very popular among editors and critiquers. I'm still waiting for the list of what makes editors smile. Call it an Eagle City list.

Published examples and why would be great. My experience with critiques of my manuscripts is that rewrite examples are the most effective type of feedback. A one paragraph rewrite is more valuable than a 1000 word analysis of what I did wrong. Yesterday, I got a got a 500 word critique of Gladiators. The one sentence that jumped out at me was a rewrite from the intro demonstrating how to change tell to show. Seeing it in print convinced me.

Besides it is the author's job to learn--if they wish to; critiquers may comment as little or as much as they please and bear no responsibilities in terms of re-writes. There are authors on Hatrack who spend too much time getting offended and not enough time learning...Not that I mind, there are too few slots to get published in anyway.

I do--mostly for my own amusement--sometimes re-write small sections of someone's intro, if I wish to illuminate an otherwise difficult point.

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But if editors DON'T like waking up intros, then what type of intros DO they like.

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I dunno--but I know they don't like those...if I found an intro they do like, I would use it and not tell you!

"Hey," I shouted, "That's not the way to the Palladium."

"Really?" the guy said, lifting his eyebrows. "Which way is it, then?"

"I hear it's in that direction." I pointed to the well-lit street. "I found it once when I walked that way."

"So you don't really know then, do you?" The guy scowled at me, like I was wasting his time.

"I guess not." Should I tell him?. "-but you don't want to go down there."

"Yeah--sure. Thanks for the help, buddy." The guy sneered at me, then continued the way he'd been going.

I probably should have been more explicit, I thought, and said something about all the vampires...

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Just thought I'd add a couple of things that may help with figuring out where or how to start a story so that it is more likely to "hook" the readers.

If you look at your introduction to the story as a way to tell the reader who the character is and what the character is here for, it may help hook the reader.

If you try starting by telling about what got your main character hooked into the situation of your story, then you have a better chance of getting the reader hooked as well.

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Also, people might want to be careful with rewriting someone else's work, because they run the risk of making it their work instead of the work of the original author.

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True. But, I submit that, for me at least a goodly percentage of the feedback I recieve here, re-write or otherwise has basically that effect or one much like it...the effect of "I don't like this kind of story/writing, heres how to make it more what I do like" or "this isn't the type of story/writting that editors (according to the critters opinion/info) like, heres how to make it into something that is."

As oposed to "Heres something I hope will maybe help you make this do what you want it to do more effectively" as the site guidlines themselves say is supposed to be the point. Of course thats hard if the person posting doesn't give some indications of what their intentions are with a piece (another thing the site guidlines recomend we do) although some times when someone actually does they recieve negative feedback for that as well (you shouldn't explain your work etc.) Thing is to get feedback in the context of a given work (which is usually what I want and I think whats usually most useful to an author) you have to provide that context.

I don't lay claim to anything I offer them that they ultimately incorporate into their stories, they don't lay claim to anything they offer me that I ultimately incorporate into my stories. Mutual giving/mutual benefit is one of the fundamental principles of workshops.

I've sowed so many seeds, how would I know who's used what in what way. Even if I wanted to keep track, even if I wanted to lay claim, it would be logistically impossible. Even if they quoted my suggested paragraph word for word, the change would have a ripple effect on the rest of the story and the adjustment to the ripple effect is their work. As far as I'm concerned, they're free to run with any or all of what I post.

If you analyze instead of rewriting, you're offering someone your analysis. If you rewrite instead of analyzing, you're offering someone your rewrite. Either way, it's your effort, your ideas, and you're giving it them.

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You don't post intros from your own stories. Your Live Journal page doesn't include any of your stories. You offer criticisms but not rewrite examples. Your feedback is almost always negative. When are you going to provide us with that missing piece of the puzzle and tell us how It's done?

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1). I don't post intros from my stories because I'm not writing much at the moment.

2). My lj page doesn't include any of my stories because if I put them there I couldn't sell them. I post links when new stories are published (I had one at EDF about a week ago and pimped it appropriately). When I actually organise my own web page it will have links to published work. Several are also available at Anthology Builder, which IIRC allows you to look at the opening of any story.

3). I never offer rewrite examples because I don't believe in trying to change the voice of other writers to my voice. Every author voice is different and rightly so.

4). My feedback is often seen as negative, but I've posted positive feedback here from time to time. I concentrate on why I think a piece doesn't work. I have said on numerous occasions that I would read on, which means a piece is doing exactly what ir needs to do, from my personal and very limited perspective.

5). I can't give you the magic secret to getting published for two reasons. One is that I don't know it. Two is that it's different for everyone. I read marvellous stories from time to time that I could never possibly have written and would never even want to write. The only real lessons I can give about actual writing itself are those that would help another writer to write like me. If you want to write like me, that would be fine, but I don't think you (or anyone else here) actually does, and I am frankly not that good (there are plenty of writers here who are better, and who have better track records, than I do).

This is some good clay, MZ. With some more info about the plot and character, one of us potters might be able to turn it into something beautiful.

I found the title of this piece very befitting the prose. Meandering. But I also feel that that is the intended affect you had with this piece. As for positive advice... find the core of the story, the main conflict and start the story where the character becomes engaged somehow in that conflict. I would be glad to review your entire story if it is drafted or help you brainstorm a bit if you only have an outline. Shoot me an email if you like.

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If my voice is flawed, I need to change my voice. Mechanics will tell you to pay attention to the way your car runs when it runs correctly so you can isolate what's wrong when it isn't running correctly. Treasury Department agents study real bills for a long time before they ever study a counterfeit. There are 1000 bad ways to tell a story, only a handful of good ways to tell a story.

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In my opinion, voice is not the same thing. Voice is the individual's way of telling the story in their own words. Personally, I never know whether my opening is right without knowing where the story ends and what path it takes to get there, so I don't post openings of WIPs and I don't suggest rewrites for openings because I don't want to second-guess anyone else about where their story might be going and what might or might not be important. Plus I don't have time.

I have no objection to other people offering their own rewrites or "how I would have written this", but I personally do not want to do it, do not feel it would be helpful for me to do it, and indeed feel faintly offended by the implicit "this is how you ought to critique stories" message in your posting. You may find other people's critiques more helpful than mine, and I have no problem with that, but whether it's OK by you or not I will continue to critique what I choose, when I choose, and how I choose. As should everyone else on this site.

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I can't give you the magic secret to getting published for two reasons. One is that I don't know it. Two is that it's different for everyone. I read marvellous stories from time to time that I could never possibly have written and would never even want to write. The only real lessons I can give about actual writing itself are those that would help another writer to write like me. If you want to write like me, that would be fine, but I don't think you (or anyone else here) actually does, and I am frankly not that good (there are plenty of writers here who are better, and who have better track records, than I do).

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Thing is non-re-write feedback can still be transformative. You're not as bad as some...but when your being told that something intrinsic to your story is "bad" or "weak" or essentially unpublishable (even if those exact words arent used) then its like your being told "change it or forget about publication." Same with the various "rules" and cliches...eventually it winds up feeling like you MUST write THIS WAY and/or MUST NEVER use this or that if you ever want to get published.
It's magnified when everything in the comments is negative...it begins to feel like your whole way of writing must just "not be good enough."

I'm not saying everyone just needs their egoes stroked but I think some times people forget something may be the way it is for a reason thats supported by the rest of the story.

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But what an editor sees in my work may well not be what I see in my work, so all of it will still be personal opinion, to be heeded or dismissed at will.

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The trouble though is around here...and again you aren't the worst but you do it...people often express their opinions and suggestions as facts and commandments. Or very close too it. And combine with the issue discussed above, thats what can kind of rub folks the wrong way and create the feeling of the "style police" or whatever.

I did enjoy the link to the the turkey city lexicon by skadder.

This is still my first thing I sat down to write. Im not sure how to describe other than that it's the realization that the main character is on a journey to rediscover things he has lost about himself, and about his awareness and understanding of past-present- and future and how intertwined they are.

I will be sending it out to all who requested it and look forward to the feedback.
Honest critiques no matter how harsh is all I am looking for.

I'm also pretty sure that all the "major cliches" can and do still sell...and I believe the only difference as far as "rule breaking" between new and old writers is the more experienced ones learn that their stories are more important than the rules.

Sometimes I will re-write something, if it I wish to--usually for fun--often to illustrate something I can't quite explain.

I think a few points to remember are:

1) Some people crit to improve their own writing, not necessarily to improve the author's. It may be a by-product--but it is only ever the author's concern to improve their own writing.

I spend my days with heroin addicts attempting to help them get drug free/stay away from drugs, etc.

The ones that succeed are generally the ones that listen to the wisdom that has accumulated over time--some of them have been in treatment six or seven times or more; I have treated hundreds and hundreds of of drug addicts in my career--does it bother me if they don't listen to my experience and decide to go down the obvious (yet flawed) routes? No, it doesn't. I've seen a hundred times. Some people don't listen. If you point out the flaws in their plan, they take it personally and their ears close. Now, at work I have to try and avoid that happening and take great pains to deliver my advice carefully couched for their particular sensibilities, but then their life hangs in the balance and I'm being paid to do it.

This is not the case here.

2) I don't care if the author improves or not. It's not something in my control--it's in their control. If they are unhappy with the food I serve then they don't have to eat it--it's free--so quit complaining.That may sound callous, but then the reality is that the author may decide to quit next week and never write again.

Merlion--not trying to be offensive--but I think these opinions are doing you a disservice. You have a fair talent for writing but a low quotient for learning and it has meant that your writing has hardly improved whilst you've been on Hatrack. You spend your time arguing over the same details with people who are professionally published--not published for love or a couple of bucks (Tchernobyl).

Perhaps we should split the forum into two groups--those who seek to be published and published well and thereby try and establish routes that achieve that. And those that don't.

Then we wouldn't have to listen to the same tiresome and unproductive arguments.

It is also important for those reading these threads (which will always be more people than are actually posting) to know the context of a person's advice so they can better judge whether that person might or might not know what they are talking about. I think it was Jim Hines who recently posted on his blog (about teaching, not about writing) that "you do NOT have the right to your opinion; you only have the right to your INFORMED opinion". In other words, by all means have an opinon on something, but be prepared to be able to justify that opinion with good reasons as to why you hold it. Which is why I also tediously remind people that, while I am not a pro by any means (I'm still technically short of SFWA qualification, though if BCS becomes a qualifying market as it should, I will be eligible), I have a pretty decent sales record by many people's standards. Plenty of markets I want to crack and haven't, and there is still clearly plenty that I don't know and need to learn.

Different people have different ways of exressing themselves and not everyone will stick "I think" or "In my opinion" on the front of every sentence. But that doesn't mean you have to treat them as if they have stated absolute facts that in some way offend your world-view.

Skadder' above, is probably harsher than I would have been, but I do question whether you are learning what you need to here, because you do have a tendency to dismiss any postings that don't support your seemingly-entrenched views both of your own writing and the way editors function (a side note: just today I read Doug Cohen, reader for Realms of Fantasy, state that he couldn't offer any analysis of trends in submissions because "most submissions I reject on the first or second page"). I recommended the other day that everyone should involve themselves in at least two writers' forums/groups because every group will tend to settle into its own dynamic and risks becoming stale because of that. And a group that agrees with you over everything you do is not going to help you develop. I joined Codex, for example, because I needed to be in a group that mostly contained writers who were and are both better and more succcessful (the two are not always the same, though usually they are) than I am.

ANd "better" in this instance is a purely subjective, personal, opinion.

And thank you, MZ, for being willing to separate the stuff relevant to your 13 lines from the possibly useful but irrelevant other stuff.

Now you're saying the same thing I've been saying.

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If I conclude you're a member of the Style Police, I won't hesitate to say so and I'll explain why.

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Most of the time I comment on whether the prose flows or if the pace of the story needs altering (as in sped up).

They can't write it for you. The are libraries full of examples...so you don't need critiquers to do that.

After all, reading a poorly formatted story can be...a pain.

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 24, 2009).]

Understanding that some here will vociferously disagree, I am of the conviction that there is a symbiotic relationship between humans and stories in general, and that there are techniques that will nearly always strengthen the relationship. If they appear to be relevant to why my eyes glazed over within thirteen lines, I'll state them, or sometimes provide an example if seems easier to communicate that way.

In my hobby of playing guitar I was exposed to something very powerful that was attributed to zen philosophy--that in order to learn one must always have a beginner's mind. The first time we try something new we are all "eyes and ears" and tend to drink in the entirety of the experience, but with repetition we can lose that attuned nature if we are not careful.

So it is important to adjust our mindset to that of a beginner such that we sense what is happening this time rather than recalling what happened before. Then we can judge where we are, and begin to see what it might take to reach our goals. For a writer, feedback from readers is an important measure, and continually falling back into a straw man debate over creative freedom versus totalitarian "rules" is the antithesis of approaching to learn with a beginner's mind.

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Some people crit to improve their own writing, not necessarily to improve the author's. It may be a by-product--but it is only ever the author's concern to improve their own writing

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That’s fine…although I think its pretty rare and most people see the benefit to their own writing as the side or joint effect.

The stated purpose of the fragments area is to help writers get whats in their heads onto paper (or whatever) in a way others can best understand.

Honestly, if someone is “critting” solely to help them find and understand flaws in their own writing or what have you…why even post? Why not just take notes or whatever? You’ve even said theres a lot more people watching than posting on the forums…I guess I just don’t get why someone in it 100% for themselves would even bother.

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The ones that succeed are generally the ones that listen to the wisdom that has accumulated over time--some of them have been in treatment six or seven times or more; I have treated hundreds and hundreds of of drug addicts in my career--does it bother me if they don't listen to my experience and decide to go down the obvious (yet flawed) routes? No, it doesn't. I've seen a hundred times. Some people don't listen. If you point out the flaws in their plan, they take it personally and their ears close. Now, at work I have to try and avoid that happening and take great pains to deliver my advice carefully couched for their particular sensibilities, but then their life hangs in the balance and I'm being paid to do it.

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While I fully see and understand why this would lead you to not want to do certain things or take certain precautions here, I don’t think the analogy between writers and drug addicts is a particularly good one for two main reasons, which are interlinked.

You’re comparing something that has a single, specific goal (overcoming addiction) to something that can have many different goals (creative writing.) Also in the case of writing there can even be multiple effective paths to the same goal.

Also, you’re comparing objective with subjective. Of course there’s some subjective psychological aspects involved in treating drug addiction but much of it is objective medical science…and again it’s a single, specific goal, and a situation where the goal is the primary concern and as you say there are well-defined proven ways of achieving it.

Creative writing however is inherently subjective and while there are certainly trends 1) they always change 2) even markets that focus on the trends usually do some other stuff too and 3) there are markets that are less interested in trends (and that’s not even going into the idea of a writer actually creating the new trends themselves.)

I think though, at least it seems to me, that 1) you assume everyone has the same goal that you do and wants to reach it the same way (or indeed that your way is the only way to reach them) and/or possibly even 2) other writing goals aren’t worth pursuing. I could be wrong. Its just the impression I get.

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I don't care if the author improves or not. It's not something in my control--it's in their control. If they are unhappy with the food I serve then they don't have to eat it--it's free--so quit complaining.That may sound callous, but then the reality is that the author may decide to quit next week and never write again.

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That’s of course your prerogative. A lot of what I say comes with the assumption that we all want to help each other. It appears that’s not one of your goals and that’s fine I suppose…there isn’t any point then really in discussing that particular issue. Just don’t take offense if some times my feedback is to varying extents specifically in counterpoint to yours.

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My goals are opposite. I care very much about everyone here “improving” which I define as better meeting their own personal goals. I also want them to continue writing. For me, the creative process is a sacred thing that I think greatly improves peoples lives, whatever form their pursuit of it takes.

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Good--then we have a social worker amongst us. I am interested in being part of a community where the goal is to improve with a view to being published, and published well, if possible.

For me, that is fun. Writing vaguely to meet 'personal goals' seems a little wishy-washy for my taste.

I hope you are meeting your personal, non-publishing related goals...

However, I think your opinions are detrimental and confusing to newbies who may in fact wish to be published but feel it is a little premature to express that openly as a goal.

It's a shame we can't have symbols by our names so our stated aims could be seen by others. People who wish to be published could have a dollar sign by their name and people who want to do it just for fun could have...a... I dunno--something.

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So Merlion, let me sum up; anything is permissible,because there can't be any rules--especially if you don't care about being published? Most things are contradictory? Any critique should be carefully couched in cushiony language because the author may be offended, and we can't take that risk?

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Of course anything is permissible in a creative pursuit. The question isn’t if a thing is permissible but rather does it help achieve whatever the goal of a particular creative work is.

There aren’t any rules. There are guidelines, ideas, philosophies. Some of which in terms of writing may generate broader appeal than others…or not. Again in the end its about intent…does a given thing work for a given stories goals or not? Your goal with every story is publication in a very limited list of markets. That’s fine and dandy and so to be as helpful as possible a person would want to gear criticisms toward that. In my case my goal with most of my stories is to best and most clearly present whats in my head…so the methods used to tailor a piece for your specific markets may or may not help the goals of my stories (just using you and I as one possible example.) But in your case this is rendered largely mute because you’ve stated you don’t care if your feedback is helpful or not. That’s you’re right. Just don’t get shocked if some times people ignore (as you say they should if it doesn’t work for them) and/or actually say they disagree with it or that it is unhelpful to them.

As far as “cushiony language”…I was always taught it’s a good idea to make it clear when you state your opinion that its your opinion and not an absolute. I was also raised to show at the absolute least basic courtesy and preferably kindness when dealing with people. Now I realize criticism can be inherently harsh in nature but I try to at least have my wording and speech be considerate. I also firmly believe (and I think I have read in some various articles about critique) that it is best to mention at least one positive in the course of a critique.

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Merlion--not trying to be offensive--but I think these opinions are doing you a disservice. You have a fair talent for writing but a low quotient for learning and it has meant that your writing has hardly improved whilst you've been on Hatrack

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Several things. One, you’ve never read an entire one of my stories (indeed its rare for you to extend an offer of reading an entire story at all) so your going solely on tiny fragments of my writing. Second, “improvement” in a subjective thing becomes subjective itself. From you I take it to mean “You’re writing hasn’t moved any further towards fitting into the general preferences of the few markets I consider worth being published in.” But see, for my actual goals, the foremost of which is more effectively conveying and portraying the stories in my mind I have improved hugely…and Hatrack has been a great help in that, for which I appreciate and which experience I want to help other writers have as well.

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You spend your time arguing over the same details with people who are professionally published--not published for love or a couple of bucks (Tchernobyl).

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So as soon as someone gets a pro sale, they are beyond reproach or disagreement? And by extension what about the opinion of writers like monstewer or C L Lynn who are published but just for “love and a couple bucks?” Are they meaningless?

Many now considered great writers were considered hacks in their day and died poor. Money isn’t the best measure of artistic merit (which is basically “in the eye of the beholder” anyway.)

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Perhaps we should split the forum into two groups--those who seek to be published and published well and thereby try and establish routes that achieve that. And those that don't

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You misunderstand. I want to be published. But I want to publish the stories from my head, if possible. You, from what I can tell, correct me if I’m wrong, write what you think is most marketable. I write whats in my mind and search for an audience for it. Mostly. I actually DO write to specific markets now and then (BCS for instance which looks for a type of story I like to write anyway.)

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I am interested in being part of a community where the goal is to improve with a view to being published, and published well, if possible. For me, that is fun. Writing vaguely to meet 'personal goals' seems a little wishy-washy for my taste.

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“Published well” is a matter of opinion. Theres plenty of writers here who consider all publication to be good and a happy thing. This community is one according to its own statements that is meant to help writers of all types with all their goals. Theres room for all of us.

The trouble is, you don’t seem to think so. You don’t seem to take very well to anyone disagree with you, offering a counterpoint to anything you say or otherwise inferring that your way may not be the one and only sole best way.

I can’t read your mind, so I’m not going to tell you what you are. But the things you say…to a small extent with say, initial comments in a first 13 and to a much greater extent in deeper conversation…make you come across as elitist, extremely dismissive of anyone who doesn’t share your goals in writing and a bit egotistical.
You seem to approach writing as a business and to have little or no thought of it as an art of a form of expression (again this is how it seems to me.) and that’s fine for you, but you don’t seem to want to allow anyone else to feel differently about it.

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I hope you are meeting your personal, non-publishing related goals...

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See a bit above. The two are not mutualy exclusive.

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However, I think your opinions are detrimental and confusing to newbies who may in fact wish to be published but feel it is a little premature to express that openly as a goal.

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I think you are doing skadder a disservce in portraying him as someone who just "writes for money". If you really write for money, for a start, you don't write fiction - non-fiction is FAR better paid.

If all you want to do is see your stories published as you envisage them in your head, then self-publishing is surely the best route to that (whether it be print publishing a la Lulu.com, or blog/website publishing). I'm not sure, if your only aim is to get your stories out of your head and onto the page/screen, why you would put yourself through the rigmarole of submitting to markets at all.

I write very much what I want to write. The characters, settings and themes of my stories are entirely those I want them to be. I write fantasy (predominantly) because that is where my heart lies. You can argue that I am compromising my art by trying to present it in a way that an editor will buy, but I don't believe that's what I'm doing. I have made changes to editorial request at times - even finding a new way to end a story - but in those few cases (most of my work has been published without any editorial intervention, i..e. the words on the page are the words I sent to the editor) it has still been integral to my vision of the kind of stories I want to tell.

I am not getting rich doing this; I am unlikely ever to get rich doing this. As I've previously noted, I think my earnings to date from writing are around the $2000 mark, across almost four years, and most of that comes from three stories at pro rates. I have been writing for my own pleasure for more than (number excised because I don't like to think about it) years. I have improved as a writer more in the last five than the previous a-lot-more-than-five, and much of that improvement has come about because of trying to sell my work. So for me, and I'm not alone in this, getting published is a win-win situation; I get to be a better writer, and I get paid for learning. What's wrong with that picture?