There are just a few authors whose works I read from start to finish, but I find it detrimental to my writing to constantly immerse myself in stuff with loads of mistakes--stuff rubs off on me easily. I prefer to read stuff better than my stuff, so I can find what I am lacking.

When I played chess, I preferred to play people better than myself--I learned the most then.

The best feeling I have ever had was my first sale for $20, since then I have only sold 5 stories--and don't call myself elite. Monstewer has sold loads of stories and for more than a few bucks. Tchernobyelo has sold plenty of stories professionally--I aspire to have a track record like that.

I suppose it's elitist to want to achieve those things that only a few will be able to achieve--like many, I'll try and probably fail. Doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile setting that as a goal.

I write what is in my head too, of course I do. Like you I follow formatting rules and paragraph when someone speaks--we all follow rules and guidlines if we want a chance of being published.

I write because I want people to read my stories--the more the better. If that means avoiding the waking cliche, then I will. However you will note I recently posted a story where someone does wake up--so I am flexible.

Published well means to me published widely for good money. If one of my stories sold tomorrow for $20 I would still be very happy, doesn't mean I'm not aiming for better things--yes, I know, better is a matter of opinion.

There are plenty of people who say that artists are sometimes only recognised after their death--most of those people remain in obscurity, I would imagine. Besides being dead and having critical acclaim is pointless. I would prefer critical acclaim/money while I was alive, when I can appreciate it.

I probably have been a little harsh with you--and I apologise (your yadda, yadda, yadda, comment annoyed me). You are entitled to your opinions, I just think you are wasting your potential.

Just my opinion.

I get altogether $1250 but I haven't got it yet. Not saying I won't get it--just I have yet to see it.

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So waking up and the beach are both cliches, but waking up is an overdone cliche and the beach is not yet an overdone cliche, apparently. What a minefield!

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Got a good chuckle out of that one. You are the only one on this thread that said a beach is cliche, so in this post you are simply arguing against yourself.

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I probably have been a little harsh with you--and I apologise (your yadda, yadda, yadda, comment annoyed me). You are entitled to your opinions, I just think you are wasting your potential.

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Ahhh. I wish you'd just said that in the first place. Probably not the best thing to do here without tone and gestures to convey it properly. It was meant to be mildly expasterated in a purely friendly way and I am sorry it didn't convey well. It was my fault entirely, and I accept and appreciate your apology.

I am curious to know though how you feel I'm wasting my potential...what that means to you in the context of something many people would consider more or less a waste irregardless.

Now what I would figure you mean, based on the things you've said and again please correct me if I'm wrong is that I'm wasting it because I'm not willing enough to make changes in how I write and what I write in order to be, at least according to some views, more likely to get published in major professional markets.

If that is the case than this would be my response (and this applies to what tchern said about self-publishing and "learning what I need to learn") I want to be published. I want my stories to get out to as many people as possible. I'd love to be paid as much as possible for it. However, I want to publish my stories. Thats not to say I don't some times write with an eye to a particular market or to current trends...some times I choose to do so for various reasons. Some times I write stuff that is what it is and that I'm not willing to make major stylistical or conceptual changes too for the sake of marketability...especially since it isn't sure fire anyway. Even among the SFWA pro markets theres a pretty broad range and many of them publish a lot of stuff that flies right in the face of "the rules" (Fantasy Magazine and Strange Horizons especially come to mind.) Out of the "big three" two are markets I'd be unlikely to ever get published by anyway because they publish only sci fi and I rarely write sci fi.

tchern you said something about making compromises in another thread. Thats what its about really. I AM willing to make some but which ones and how much vary depending on the story. And in the case of a story with which I'm not much interested in making a lot of compromises, feedback that is transformative, that basically says fundmental aspects of it should be changed, isn't going to be useful to me, and I'm probably going to say so (in an appreciative and respectful way, I think, generally speaking.)

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There are just a few authors whose works I read from start to finish, but I find it detrimental to my writing to constantly immerse myself in stuff with loads of mistakes--stuff rubs off on me easily. I prefer to read stuff better than my stuff, so I can find what I am lacking.

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I can't really relate to your apparently more or less self-centric approach to participation in the forums, but its you're choice how to participate of course. I think though that maybe even more so than disagreeing about "rules" and all that was an underlying crux of our disagreements especially about feedback since I come from the assumption that we're all trying to help each other out. The reason your feedback is based entirely on your own writing goals is because its for your benefit, not theirs. But they don't know that and for me since I am interested in other people furthering their creativity I feel the need to counterpoint so that new writers realize, if they didn't already, that everyone has different goals and they can all be valid. Its not intended as a put down to you, only a presenting of different viewpoints.

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I write what is in my head too, of course I do. Like you I follow formatting rules and paragraph when someone speaks--we all follow rules and guidlines if we want a chance of being published.

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Yes, but to me theres a big difference between technical rules and stylistic guidlines. We have to write in a way people can understand. Where the trouble comes in is with ideas about what sort of style, and content, people will like or continue to read. Cliches are a big example...if I want to write a type of story or plotline or opening thats been done before, I'm not going to not do it just because it might not sell because its cliche. Likewise if I want to write a story about a wanderer motivated by curiosity, I'm not going to not write that story because a lot of people here don't consider curiosity a sufficient motivation.

And even the technical rules have been broken successfully, such as in "Born of Man and Woman" and various other places...I think its probably even more common in genre fiction to, for example, have a strange creatures speech be presented in a bizzare way or some such thing, but that is something that must be used with care and consideration.

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I suppose it's elitist to want to achieve those things that only a few will be able to achieve--like many, I'll try and probably fail. Doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile setting that as a goal.

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I agree. But what you said in the why are you here thread about trunking any story that gets rejected from 6 chosen markets doesn't make sense to me. I see the logic in submitting to better paying markets first, but I don't see any logic in trashing stories that don't make it there. You said you'd still be happy if a story sold for $20 so why not send them all to the "good" ones first and then just keep going? I mean their your stories to do with as you please but things like that are the kind of thing, without more information that give me that "elitist" and/or "in it for the money" vibe.

I think some times you just confuse me a bit because you say things but then when pressed you'll say things that seem the oposite of them. But then that happens, especially on the internet. I've no desire to condem or even irritate anyone, I just want this place to be open and comfortable for people no matter what directions and goals their creativity leads them toward.

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Different people have different ways of exressing themselves and not everyone will stick "I think" or "In my opinion" on the front of every sentence. But that doesn't mean you have to treat them as if they have stated absolute facts that in some way offend your world-view.

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True. But, if one doesn't...I'm not sure a person should act surprised when someone assumes that their imperative statement is meant as an imperative statement especially if the overall tone of the post suggests it as well.

And even more so if, when thats pointed out to them, they continue to insist they are right. While you're correct that a lot of times people just don't bother to make it clear that they are just saying what they think and realize its subjective there are people who believe many things you and I can agree are subjective are in fact objective and that their belief about them is the only valid one.

And if a person doesn't take the time as you have to make themselves clear it can be hard to tell which is which (of course I realize most folks don't really see why I care as much as I do.)

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Skadder' above, is probably harsher than I would have been, but I do question whether you are learning what you need to here, because you do have a tendency to dismiss any postings that don't support your seemingly-entrenched views both of your own writing and the way editors function

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I never actively try to be dismissive of anyone. I don't give much credence to those who (in an issue related to the above) seem to insist that all editors 1) function the same way and 2) have the same tastes and further that 3) this means you should base your writing primarily around 1 and 2.

The idea that the first 13 must be perfect (and that there is a general purpose perfect to achieve) because all editors will reject a story if they don't like the first13 lines is simply not correct. I mean the editor you mention even says first or second page. Thats just an example of one issue and its not to say those 13 lines arent important.

I just feel like here on Hatrack especially some times people get so fixed and focused on a particular thing, whether its the first 13 or showing not telling or whatever they tend to loose sight of a lot of other things. And, it feels to me in my personal self that they some times loose sight of the creative and artistic aspects of writing and storytelling in their overwhelming desire to "make it" and there overwhelming belief that this and that will help them make it and those things and the other will prevent them.

In conversation C L Lynn said something to me at one point about how its often historically been writers that broke molds and rules and created their own trends that really made it anyway.

I think both approaches have merit but I think on this forum the "nose to the grindstone, writing is a job, follow the rules if you want to get published" viewpoint tends to dominate a little, so I feel like another voice or viewpoint is a positive thing.

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I recommended the other day that everyone should involve themselves in at least two writers' forums/groups because every group will tend to settle into its own dynamic and risks becoming stale because of that. And a group that agrees with you over everything you do is not going to help you develop. I joined Codex, for example, because I needed to be in a group that mostly contained writers who were and are both better and more succcessful (the two are not always the same, though usually they are) than I am.

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I use Liberty Hall as you know, I recently joined LegendFire...I've used Scrawl but its generally not very helpful as anything genre and/or over a thousand words rarely gets responses...I tried Baen's Bar some as well but despite the claims it can be used as a general critique source all the critiques are still pretty much based on the publication preferences of Jim Baen's Universe and most of what I write doesn't and isn't going to fit that so most of the feedback was of that "instructions how to write a totally different story" variety.

I probably get the highest useful feedback ratio on Liberty Hall, but the trouble there is you don't get a lot of feedback outside the Challenges whereas here you can always put stuff in F&F although theres the chance you may not get offers for a full read which is mostly what I'm after.

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The idea that the first 13 must be perfect (and that there is a general purpose perfect to achieve) because all editors will reject a story if they don't like the first13 lines is simply not correct. I mean the editor you mention even says first or second page. Thats just an example of one issue and its not to say those 13 lines arent important.

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You keep doing this; taking other people's generalisations and turning them into absolutes just so you can then dismiss/disagree with them. I keep stating (and should probably stop because I dislike repeating myself) that very few, if any, people here are saying "every editor does X", or that "Y is a universal truth". But you're just constantly making straw men out of other people's arguments and then cutting them into pieces. And you also make such fine distinctions as to make me wonder if you're even reading - I referred to "first or second page" and you seize on that as proof against an assertion no-one ever made (that "all editors" choose to reject or not after 13 lines) even while it actually strengthens the "first 13" argument. First page rejections mean that the editor in question will probably have read 13 lines or FEWER, if you're using standard MS formatting (as the magazine in question requires).

Please stop this style of argument. Please stop requiring eveyrone to put "In my opinion" or "Generally" or "I think" in front of every sentence in every posting and assuming they are trying to lay down some Stalinist diktat if they don't, just so you can go "hah, you are wrong, because in a small percentage of cases that doesn't happen!". Writing is not an exact science and I believe EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD KNOWS THAT. But you choose not to believe that as and when it suits your "I want to do it my way!" purposes.

Validate yourself all you wish. COntinue to write how you wish - I don't believe ANYONE has told you otherwise. But accept that if the way you wish to write differs from most other people in a given community, you will get, and will continue to get, criticised for it.

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I agree. But what you said in the why are you here thread about trunking any story that gets rejected from 6 chosen markets doesn't make sense to me. I see the logic in submitting to better paying markets first, but I don't see any logic in trashing stories that don't make it there. You said you'd still be happy if a story sold for $20 so why not send them all to the "good" ones first and then just keep going? I mean their your stories to do with as you please but things like that are the kind of thing, without more information that give me that "elitist" and/or "in it for the money" vibe.

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I'm lazy...I hate subbing. I have zero stories out at present, but probably 15 stories I could send. When I was subbing a lot I would find a whole evening could be taken up identifying a market and formatting according to what they wanted and sending it. I hate all that.

So, yeah--I'm in it for the money! I decided to sub to six markets then dump the story (until I become famous and they'll buy them anyway!). I would like to point out that those six markets are unlikely to be all pro markets.

In fact I have only subbed one story to one pro market EVER. SF&F. The rest have been to semi-pro and token.

I confuse you? You think I am inconsistent in my opinions? Possibly, given my mood, what sort of day I've had etc. But then opinions shouldn't be hard and fast...or should they?

...except in terms of stamina for arguments. Phew...

That's a good one. Lol. Yes, you're right, but everyone submits to WotF, so I didn't count it.

I have submitted to two pro markets--WOTFx3 and SF&Fx1

You have some very large misconceptions about me...based mostly on this: You say nobody is speaking in absolutes and everyone knows that "writing isn't an exact science." Great. Thats how you see it. But thats not how I see the words of many people here. And I find it hard to believe you aren't aware that there are people in the word, and this forum who have what we'd consider opinions that they consider facts. But, I realize, in the end you don't really care and mostly just want me to shut up about it. So, I'm going to do my darndest to do so. I'll take whatever good or usefulness I can get from the forum as far as feedback on my writing and limit or end my participation in the rest.

skadder: yeah you definitely confuse me. I assume based on what I know that thats cause your confused yourself. I'm probably wrong but I no longer have the energy to care. I think I've finally realized that these forums are useful to me for feedback, to an extent, but can't really give me what I'd like as far as a place to discuss writing more broadly and conceptually. Just wish I'd figured it out sooner.