posted
I was wondering, I received a critique of some work and realised that there are many elements and words in my stories that hark-back to my cultural matrix.
For instance words and phrases like 'lorry', 'council workers' or 'a few blocks' (which where I come from is maybe 300 yards at the most but in some parts of the US is nearly a mile) are not understood the same way.
I am not talking about colloquialisms like 'bonzer' or 'humpy' but genuine words and phrases that should be understandable to almost any English speaker.
Humour and irony must be culturally specific too, what is funny or ironic to one is not necessarily to another-- touring comedians suffer from this I believe.
I wonder how much subtext I miss when I read the writings of Americans, and vice versa.
Some activities like clearing the letterbox of a neighbour who is away for a while, is common practice here, it stops people noticing and breaking in, but it may not be common elsewhere.
And here comes the questions:
1: Given a certain economical imperative: that the biggest market is the US, how much alteration to my writing do I need to make in order to be understood?
2: How on earth do I know the difference between what is universal and what is not?
3: Do I have to hide my Australian-ness or just work a lot harder and subsequently run the risk of telegraphing my ideas?
Hoptoad
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited August 24, 2004).]
posted
My own advise would be to respect the intelligence of your readers. So long as you make it clear that your story is set in a particular culture, and then you proceed to tell the truth about that culture, you have done your job. It's up to the reader to do his.
posted
I agree with Balthasar. If I, as a reader, know that a story is set in Australia, I am delighted to notice the cultural differences. If I don't understand a reference, I will hop on the 'net and try to look it up.
And, if you are writing a non-contemporary fantasy or sci-fi work,any differences will be likely be attributed to the strange milieu.
On the other hand, if you are trying to set your story in America or England, for instance, your readers will likely demand that you be culturally and/or historically accurate.
Don't worry: Most things from Down Under are very popular in the U.S., thanks in no small part to "Crocodile Dundee". 'Course the Crocodile Hunter hasn't hurt Aussie popularity here either. *G*
posted
I think it really depends on what your goals are in writing.
One can certainly say that if the reader doesn't 'get it', then it's too bad for the reader. If it is more important to you to express yourself in your writing than it is to be understood, then that's a perfectly valid approach.
However, based on your first question, "1.: Given a certain economical imperative: that the biggest market is the US, how much alteration to my writing do I need to make in order to be understood?", being understood by your readers is important to you. I don't think the problem is a great deal larger for you than for me in Virginia horsecountry. What seems perfectly 'normal' to me is mystery, even exotic, to acquaintances who have lived their entire lives in cities within an hour of here. The question is still the same. Does the reader understand what I mean to say? Critique is the only way I know to get that question answered.
And yes, unique setting that is distinguished by language and occupations and climate and clothing worn when shopping, etc. really enriches a story. By all means use your locale and the language and clarify where it's necessary. Let your critters help you identify where that is.
Actually, I don't think it's critical that the reader always understand exactly as the writer intended, so long as the critical parts to the story development are communicated clearly.
posted
"there are many elements and words in my stories that hark-back to my cultural matrix."
We all face that - whether from California or Wisconsin or New York or Hawaii (me) or Australia. I'm curious why people would have a problem if you used the word 'lorry' (which I would think the many intelligent readers of sf/f - you do sf/f? - would have no issue with) or have issues if your 'few blocks' didn't matchup with expectations. Make sure your context is strong, and it will work. If you say how long someone walked, or have the mc comment on how long it was taking to go a few blocks, readers will get it.
"I am not talking about colloquialisms like 'bonzer' or 'humpy' but genuine words and phrases that should be understandable to almost any English speaker." - Well, you are assuming a LOT to say this. I'm not saying you are wrong - I suspect that most English speakers will understand the basics. But English varies in pronounciation and usage quite a bit (sometimes I feel like Whoopi in "Jumpin Jack Flash" - "Mick - speak English!"). Exactly which "genuine words and phrases" did someone have trouble with? Share with us, and we'll tell you if you are nuts/crazy/insane/off your rocker/right.
I went here and tried to do this - I didn't do well... (knew two, was able to reason out several more, but a few I just guessed - not good):
"Humour and irony must be culturally specific too, what is funny or ironic to one is not necessarily to another-- touring comedians suffer from this I believe." This is certainly true - if you are trying to write comedy, try to go for universal truths that lack the colloquialisms! What, there's no such thing as 'universal truths' you say? Oh well, we are here - we'll let you know if we laugh.
"I wonder how much subtext I miss when I read the writings of Americans, and vice versa." Plenty, but learning is fun.
"Some activities like clearing the letterbox of a neighbour who is away for a while, is common practice here, it stops people noticing and breaking in, but it may not be common elsewhere." We do it (also to avoid overstuffed mailboxes and to not get our mailman/woman mad!), but we call it a mailbox. Not exactly difficult to know what you were talking about. Actually, we can put a "hold" on our mail, and the post office will hold our mail until we come back and claim it. But if you don't want others knowing you are not around, you get a friend to do it.
And here comes the questions:
"1: Given a certain economical imperative: that the biggest market is the US, how much alteration to my writing do I need to make in order to be understood?" - Don't. Write it, then get some of us to read it. If we don't get it due to your cultural differences (as opposed to the quality of writing), we can tell you. And, read our work. Do you get it?
"2: How on earth do I know the difference between what is universal and what is not?" Well, we breath, eat, sleep, love, hate, etc. Start with the easy ones. An alien lands in Sydney. An alien lands in San Francisco. How differently do you think our peoples would react?
"3: Do I have to hide my Australian-ness or just work a lot harder and subsequently run the risk of telegraphing my ideas?" Not sure how trying to hide who you are would risk telegraphing your ideas.
Just write. Share some of that critique with us, and what it was on. Some small example or two. I question whoever was reviewing your work, but since I haven't seen it, I don't know!
[This message has been edited by punahougirl84 (edited August 24, 2004).]
quote:I wonder how much subtext I miss when I read the writings of Americans, and vice versa.
Critiquing for writers from other countries/cultures will also be a terrific way for you to learn just how much you are perhaps missing. By letting a writer know you didn't understand something, the writer can get back to you with an explanation.
It also makes better writers of the rest of us to see how someone from another culture reads and comprehends (or not!) *our* work.
posted
I believe that most people will know right off by spelling and word choice if the story is not written by an American. When critiqueing I would ask clairifications, but I assume many things I don't fully understang are a cultual thing. Some things, like lorry, boot, flat, lift, and so forth, (truck, trunk, apartment, elevator) are understandable to most readers and are key words to show the culture of the author or the POV character.
As a reader, I catch on pritty quickly.
I say write it with your own words and let your publisher tell you where you may want to change.
posted
In a response to pun-an-hour-girl, the critique was really good, don't get me wrong... But it opened a whole field of vision that I had never considered, it was confirmed by your 'we call it a mailbox' thing... It appears dauntingopens up opportunities too...
Was cranky then but now I'm not...
That link was great by the way...
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited August 25, 2004).]
posted
"Harry Potter" is different in the British editions from the American editions. Write what you know, and if the story is compelling an editor can deal with any serious cultural differences. And frankly, correcting someone by saying "We call the mailboxes" here would only be valid if you were setting the story in the US.
I was reading a story by Tanith Lee set on the moon. She called all the windows 'see-throughs' and it drove me crazy. That was the only normal word that she subbed.
posted
Garth Nix is Australian and is currently one of my favorites. He is popular enough here that I have been able to find his work in every bookstore.
I would agree that you should write what you know. SF with an Australian flavor might be interesting.
posted
I know what you're talking about. I just posted an opening over in F&F and completely forgot that most people here probably aren't familliar with bottle depots.
The best way to know whether you need to adjust your writing is to listen to your critiquers - plural. If the majority of people reading your work miss the cultural context then you may need adjust it slightly or save that particular story for a local market. Whatever you do, I hope you won't trade your cultural uniqueness in hopes of commercial success. It could be the spark that helps you stand out in the crowd.
All the best.
p.s. If you would like a second opinion, I have a bit of time this week, as long as it's not too long.
posted
But the thing about the bottle depot was that it was clear even if a person lives in a place without them. Most SF elements are invented, right? I mean, who has an ansible? If the context is clear, then don't worry about it.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I usually like hearing the Australian and British English terms. It really creates another setting, and in most cases are clear by context. The only time I think you would get into real trouble is if you used them to describe an American setting and/or were using a distinctly American POV character. But the same holds true in reverse for an American writer writing British and Australian characters/settings. And with fantasy and science fiction, you should have even more room, since unfamiliar terms are expected.
Posts: 652 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I don't think ANY of us would not get what you meant by "letterbox" - and I would not suggest changing things like that. I would love to see an example of something the reviewer didn't get - please, post it! (if it is in another thread that I haven't looked at yet - sorry!).
Having an aussie background would actually give you an advantage I would think, making things sound "strange" as in different for those who don't know any better.
We had a lot of Aussies and Kiwis visit our yacht club back home (I got invited to do the Sydney-Hobart race once, but couldn't go) - I have fond memories of my friends Simone and Samantha, and another Aussie girl married the cutest guy at our club! Her dad worked for Pan Am, back in the day when it existed.
I always understood them... well, maybe learned a word or two! Glad you liked the link!
posted
Might be an interesting study to get hold of an American AND a British version of Harry Potter and compare the differences.
For us Americans there is still plenty of 'Brittishness' in the pages of that book to be clear of the speaker's voice, but we understand everything--except they left in a word (I can't remember it now) to describe some sort of winter wear that I totally could not get a picture in my mind for. And our American dictionaries didn't have it. We finally decided it must be one of those stocking caps that pull down to your neck and has a hole for your eyes and nose?
posted
We call ski masks "balaclavas"... named after the Battle of Balaclava I believe (see Charge of the Light Brigade.. Crimean war.)
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
The biggest, easiest example to spot as a difference between the American and British versions of the first Harry Potter is the title. It was originally "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" but they decided that American's wouldn't like it because they wouldn't know what it meant, so it's the "Sorcerer's Stone."
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
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We also call them balaclavas, eh, but I didn't know the history of the word. Thanks Yanos.
Another word we use up here that doesn't get used in the U.S. (as far as I know) is toque [pronounced too-k, it's french]. When my dad's wife first started teaching in Alaska she told the kids they needed to put on their toques and mittens before going outside to play. They all stared blankly at her. I guess Americans call them winter hats. I don't know, toque sounds more exotic
A couple of my American college friends called toques, tobaggans. But I always said they'd look funny trying to slide down a hill on a hat (up here a tobaggan is a type of snow-sled).
posted
Thanks for the link Hoptoad. Right now I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of "Grim Tuesday" in my local bookstore.
Posts: 497 | Registered: Jun 2004
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