they gave these creatures characteristics of both rat and tree, they look like large rats just about the size of a human toddler, perhaps slightly larger. the creatures also had intelligence, and went mad in their cages, they broke free and somehow at one point in the experiments had gotten two very unique abilities.

one, they could assimilate, ie: take the memories and life out of another entity as they ate it.

two, they could reproduce by turning other living creatures into hosts. their genetic stuff had to combine with their hosts genetic stuff to create young which would grow within the host as the hosts own child... there were no barriers of species... consider it a self-contained, automatic, genetically controlled gene splicing

thus a third element existed: ratplants could become almost anything, there are amphibious ratplants, humanoid ratplants, and so on. of course, these creatures preferred taking human hosts...

my question is this: how believable is this?

Also, if they acquire the memories of the creatures they devour, exactly what is the mechanism by which this happens? How are the memories (which are altered neurons storing an electrochemical "fingerprint") transmitted through whatever digestive system so that neurons are altered in the creature's brain in the exact same way? And wouldn't neurons be damaged by being eaten, resulting in broken or twisted memories? (Although that could be cool...)

Nowadays, genetic engineering for sf requires that you basically prove how it's done so that the science part is believable. Mixing genetic "stuff" doesn't sound terribly scientific! One needs to be an extremely well-read layperson regarding molecular biology and genetics in order to pull off something like this. Get ready for some homework.

they use that because food isn't always available... but they prefer to eat other creatures, as that is their mechanism for learning, and they are still a young sort.

anyways... i can see that it is highly unbelievable, but i really want to use it... hmm...

I think it would be easier to make it believable if you focused on one or two of those attributes.

Genetic blending isn't much of a stretch, it has been done in several forms throughout the last century. However, having both the memory transfer and the ability to breed using hosts are big stretches. It might be easier, for the purposes of suspension of disbelief, to limit yourself to one or the other.

*I can understand and readily believe lab rats being used to develop the desired mutation before creating green cows that can create their own food simply by standing in direct sunlight.

*I can understand and readily accept that rats are an intelligent species that might go mad after too much experimentation.

*I can stretch my imagination that somehow they can absorb and process memories if they feed on the brain of an animal. Perhaps their digestive process, altered by the photosynthetic abilities, allows them to process neurologic energy directly or something...

OR

*I can stretch my imagination that these ratplants can turn any living creature into a host and the offspring take on some of the characteristics of the host (quasi-Alien style)...

Scientists playing Dr. Moreau with their new creations the ratplants. Two new sub-species are created.

I think the key is making sure you show how these ratplants come to be. If you can provide a logical reason for these creatures in terms of your melieu, then you can expand on them. As long as there is a solid context.

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Those sound like they'd make entirely different species, not sub-species.

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That's possible. If that is the case, then Ratplant becomes the genus and breeder/memory becomes the species.

I'm not sure at what point a sub-species would become it's own species though.

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I think the key is making sure you show how these ratplants come to be. If you can provide a logical reason for these creatures in terms of your melieu, then you can expand on them. As long as there is a solid context.

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As it seems they use entirely different methods of reproduction, I'd say they're definitely different species.

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Ratplantius memoria

Ratplantius parastos

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Also, it seems like they could overpopulate an area to the point where they'd be reduced...because they are so lethal

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Well it depends also on their birth and death rate as well as how often they need to feed

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I'm thinking that in a city situation they might well be obvious.

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that hurts survivor, and really won't work... this isn't about some evil aliens come to take over the world, it's about evil humans messing with what they don't understand...

but anyways, SPECULATIVELY, could it be possible that these scientists found some way to make photosynthesis more efficient? even if only slightly, so that these creatures can operate on the stored up energy from photosynthesis for about 2, maybe 3 hours before needing to go back into photosynthesis mode, or eat something?

After the fall of the Nazi empire at the end of the second World War, a scientist escapes to a deserted island to continue his research on blending species. Perhaps as a send-up to H.G. Wells, call him Dr. Moreau (yet another book on my long list of things I need to read ).

Instead of trying to blend plants and animals, the doctor starts blending animal cells with photosynthetic bacteria. He had minor success with simple organisms like leeches, fish, insects, and some small birds.

Eventually he dies, but the island and his research are discovered by a scientific expedition, studying the evolution of life on the volcanic islands of the south Atlantic, around 2020 (if you like) and they recognize the genius of the Doctor’s work. They want to use it to create livestock that can make their own food and oxygen if necessary for short periods of time (i.e. up to two weeks) in case of a drought or food shortage (or so the cows can live at higher altitudes in the mountains where both grass and oxygen are short. Over population has destroyed most farm land and the only places left are the mountains or something.).

They begin experimenting on rats but it takes years to interpret and adapt the Doctor’s research to achieve the success he had.

They finally succeed by increasing the size of the rats to the size of a Scottish terrier (about 30 pounds?). This increases the surface area of the rat that is exposed to light, thus making it more efficient at photosynthesizing. Unfortunately their brains also grow in size and the rats (which are already intelligent creatures) become smarter (or at least increase the productivity of their brains, ala Deep Blue Sea – the shark movie).

The hyper-intelligent ratplants go mad in their cages in the lab and soon have to be moved to a farm-type compound. The ratplants are split into two groups to continue experiments.

Hopes that the larger brain might yield some new insights into the psyche, experiments and manipulations are done and eventually the one group of ratplants can absorb memories if they bite and strike a nerve or if they eat a brain (who knows how they discover this, but scientists can come up with some rather odd experiments).

The second group is experimented on to exploit the introduction of the bacteria. Bacteria can use hosts to reproduce, so they try getting the ratplants to do the same and it works.

However, the hyper-intelligent ratplants find a way to overrun the “farm” compound and are released into society and begin wreaking havoc (around 2073)...

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Some sites on photosynthetic organisms:

http://tidepool.st.usm.edu/crswr/111prokaryotes.html

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanolh.html

This would also give the long-lost scientist time to develop his techniques away from mainstream science of the last sixty years.

I think you could still begin the story with the scientific team discovering the island and the research. Then they begin their experiements. A couple of years later there is a breakdown in global government and multi-national companys take over from governments. Society becomes cut-throat and the only true power comes from the all-mighty dollar. If you want security, you pay - etc. In some regions, insurgent groups rise up and form their own territories separte from the multi-nationals and the overall global climate is turbulent at best.

These are all just ideas though.

http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/bealsmodules/area_volume.html

There is a problem, even with the photosynthetic bacteria approach, because photosynthesis does not provide enough energy to support large, mobile life. The thermodynamics are just not there. And then there's the problem of completely incompatible biochemistry.

This is also not necessary for your basic idea, which seems to be of the "science run amok" sort. You only need the memory from consumption idea. Have you ever heard that memory is chemical? There is a surprising amount of sound evidence for that statement. There is also a considerable amount of research being done on this because of the Alzhiemer and "mad cow" scares, and our societies sick dread of growing old. (Hey, growing old beats the alternative!) These creatures, who can learn simply by taking in the brain chemicals of their victims would be the result of such research.

BUT: whence the adaptation to do this by eating the victim ? Essentially, this would mean that they would not digest the chemicals from the brain associated with memory, but would still somehow absorb them—that is at least three substantial mutations away, and at least two of the mutations would probably be fatal (almost all mutations are either fatal or have no effect.) One would be not to digest proteins or their precursor compounds. Another would be to allow foreign proteins to enter the bloodstream. (Welcome, virii and microbes to the all you can eat smorgasboard!) The third would be the immune system not destroying these foreign materials after they got in.

And even after you surmount these problems, what you have are "Mind-flayers" ™ (Dungeons and Dragons). At best, you are writing a darker version of [u]The Rats of NIMH[/u].

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I think that you at least deserve to know some of the reasons behind "it won't work." Don't be discouraged—I have a broader scientific background than most scientists, and I cannot count the number of idea's I've had that turned out just as unworkable.

If it absolutely has to be scientists behind it, make it a genetically engineered plague of some sort. Rats could be the carriers, if you like. Perhaps it would be something like rabies, only it would also release a substance similar to PCP which would make the rats super rats for a short time before they died (it would have similar effects on infected humans, of course).

also, i suppose i can get rid of the brain-eating sort, and just have the parasitics...

yeah, it isn't that well thought out, that's what i'm trying to do here right now

... i suppose the whole photosynthesis part is going to need to be gotten rid of, but then there won't be anything to balance these things out and they'll overpopulate even more quickly!

As unexplained extraterrestrials (from space, another dimension, or some theological plane) they could be workable. But once you try to explain them, well, you're basically inviting the reader to think about how unlikely creating these things using human science would be. Which is to say, pretty darn unlikely.

It sounds like what you really want to do is create a xenomorph (apparently that is the technical term what the aliens from Alien are).

My understanding is, the Alien xenomorphs were genetically engineered to be the ultimate prey for the Predators. They were also used as a weapon. They are practically perfect: they can breed - parasitically - with any animal (taking on some of their host's characteristics - consider the blending with the dog in Alien3); survive in almost any atmosphere; they bleed concentrated acid...

I'm sure that sometime after humans develop personal interstellar vehicles, invisibility cloaks, discrete EM charge weapons, nano-machined super alloy servo-blades, etc. etc. etc. oh yeah, and start hunting other sophents for sport; we'll eventually get around to developing the ultimate prey using genetic engineering.

"But it ain't gonna happen in 2020."

Nope. Try ~100,000-500,000 YA. Genus Homo, various species.

so the events are supposed to be occuring around 2060 now for the inner story, the outer story remains untouched, it'll still be occuring at the same time, although that time isn't established until a few chapters in...

we do face the problem that the ratplants are to have existed for 5 yrs prior to the story, which means 2055, i HOPE that's a believable time to have existed, but we can push it another ten years if necessary.

oh, and with the website i referenced above, unless i'm reading it wrong, they are already experimenting with bacteria that might help me give credence to the creature in it's new form...

well, anyways, on to what really matters, a NAME! i stink at names, i always have, so help a guy out here, and help me come up with a name for this creature, which is going to probably be more than just a gene-splicing, but also some additional genetic engineering involved in making it.

i can work on the science later, but i need a name before i can make any progression in my story. i'm already going to give a big ol' thanks to all of hatrack, but to whoever comes up with a name i like, i'll give more specific credit to. this includes science names, because one of my characters is a scientist involved in making these things and she'll refer to them by their science name in her speech she gives at a convention.

Just kidding.

mortvers is the common name, and caedius mortvereus is it's fake scientific name

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If you push it that far forward, how are these creatures more than a minor nuisance?

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Think of the old armor-weapon paradox. At any given level of technology, a weapon capable of defeating any armor made using the same technology will always be far cheaper than that armor.

Macro/micro organisms have a similar duality. We see it all the time in nature, that large organisms are vulnerable to smaller and far simpler organisms. When you introduce the element of engineering into the equation, what it basically means is that for any given level of genetic engineering technology, it will be far easier and cheaper to engineer a pathogen specific to a large organism than to engineer that organism.

So if the bio-technology is generally sophisticated enough to create a macro-organism with specific properties, then it is necessarily possible to fully control that organism using engineered microbes specific to that organism. There is no way around this difficulty, it is insuperable.

Think back to the Aliens v. Predator paradigm someone suggested. The only reason that the aliens can be beyond our ability to destroy is because we didn't create them in the first place. The Predators don't want them destroyed, they created them to have something challenging to hunt. But if they ever decided that they weren't such a good idea, it would be a very simple matter for them to engineer something that would wipe out all the aliens very easily, either a disease or a special toxin.

well, the lab that created them didn't really think about having a need to be able to destroy them until it was already to late for them to do it, all but one of them are dead.

no one else in the world understands them. this world i am creating has no government anymore, the various groups don't trust each other, and therefore don't share information, as of yet nothing exists to counter them, HOWEVER, one person did survive, and is trying to get together a group of people to help defeat them, as well as neutralize the parasites within herself. she is also fully aware that she MUST survive in order to get it to happen, she is the only one with inside information on how these things work, and she is the only one who understands what will happen if they are not eliminated. since the creatures are slightly different between their parasitic and full-grown stages it is much like trying to kill lice. i might also add that these creatures have their genetics slightly change each and every generation, they interbreed with the host organism

There are certain parts of their genetics that must remain the same (and will always be unique). Having the ability to cross splice with other species, for instance. That has to be encoded into their reproductive mechanisms at a very basic level, so you could create something that would attack the meiosis/mitosis of these things which wouldn't hurt any other form of life. They also need special metabolic pathways in order to get genetic material (let along neuro-synaptic material) from eating other animals.

There simply isn't any way around the fact that it is much easier to destroy a species than to create it. This is an immutable law of nature, not a simple accident of constants (in other words, I can plausibly suggest a universe where there aren't things like gravity, atoms, etc, but I cannot plausibly assert a universe where it is easier to create a species than to destroy it).

What you say makes perfect sense to me, but I can't help wondering. There seems to be some trouble keeping genetically modified corn genes from getting into other corn, for example. I guess it would be pretty easy to kill all the corn in the world, if that were necessary, but that would still be a problem of major proportions. We don't, to the best of my knowledge, have any micro-organisms that could kill off the genetically-engineered corn and leave the rest. And if the herbicide resistant genes in the corn get into the weeds that the herbicide is meant to kill (which some people think will happen), that could cause other problems. We wouldn't be able to kill off those weeds just because they have a gene that we inserted. It seems like greater alterations would have the potential for even greater accidents.

Also, our current level of GM is at the molecular biology level, not at the phenotype expression level. That makes a big differance. But even so, we could make a toxin that would target specific varieties of GM corn if we wanted to do so. We just don't really want to do so. People complain about GM corn "weeds", but really, these aren't the world's most troublesome weeds.

Why not make these mortvers some kind of self-replicating ninja-bot? That would be a lot more plausible to me. What you're currently saying is that the most brilliant geneticists in an entire region are all so intensely stupid that they created these things without even the most basic precautions either for containment or cleanup.

I mean, I could see this happening if it were a bunch of high-school students messing around with the local university's Macro Genetic Manipulation facility, but then there would be no way the local Center for Irresponsible GM Control wouldn't be up to the tast of cleaning up.