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Author Topic: POV Critique
Kazander42
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Another thing I have to say is that there is always room for experimentation in literature. If someone wants to specifically try to break POV 'rules' for a reason, go for it. In all probablility, it will fail miserably, but not every story we write is going to be published. Practicing in hard POV's and experimenting, even if at first it fails, is always helpful to a writer, we can't always write perfectly, but we can always improve our own skill.
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onepktjoe
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This topic is actually kind of timely for me, as I've been thinking a lot about POV lately. I'm not sure if I have anything of value to add to the discussion, but I do feel a need to at least add to the topic's momentum.

I always find it easy to side with the creative viewpoint, as my first introduction to thinking critically about art--unfortunately, I think--was Dada, and the anarchy of creative freedom. So, in defense of Kazander, I think it's disingenuos NOT to write in whatever way speaks to us or moves us to speak...at least in the early draft stages, anyway.

The opposite side of the coin, though, is the practical matter of THE AUDIENCE. It would be nice to think that our audience would approach our work without predjudice. But this will never be so. Even here on the forum, reviewers in general are an audience with a fairly common set of preconceived notions. Those posting and those lending crits are doing so for the purpose of refining their craft. Most work here is in a fairly common genre(s), with a fairly common goal of getting published or writing something that's very readable. As such, there is a tendency to use broadly accepted common denominators/rules. Since POV is so basic to the read, it's going to come up whenever you use anything outside the norm. This is also an indicator of the reaction you may receive if you are trying to publish. Use these indicators for whatever they're worth to you.

I also happen to enjoy reading great literature, but I always approach it from a different perspective. I expect great writers to break the rules with flair. But I would never slam a submission here because it did not.

In the end, it's all about creating a record of our attempts at problem-solving while in the creative act. All solutions have costs. If you feel the value of the solution outweighs the cost, you go with it. That's artistic integrity. If the cost obscures the solution, you have to decide what audience you have a loyalty to. That's artistic integrity, too, I think--but that's another topic entirely.

If your writing is good, I have no doubt you'll pick up readers here that accept these kinds of things as your style. I personally haven't seen any of your work, but I promise to do so. I also promise to look at other things besides your POV usage.

As an aside in this vein, I wonder if anyone has compared any of King's early stuff with his later style. Did he start out with a much more commonly accepted style and then evolve into his currently blatant use of omniscient? Well, I'm sure he did, but does anyone recall how tight his POV usage was in the early stuff? I happen to love some of his work, but sometimes I find myself asking, "How the hell does he get away with that?" ... and then I keep on reading.

Joe


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KatFeete
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quote:
As a reader of literature, I do not stop and say: "Hey, the main character doesn't know this, he can't see the penguin behind his back, the little boy doesn't call himself 'and young'n' "

I do. *wry grin* I stopped reading Piers Anthony at twelve because he was driving me crazy with this kind of thing, than and his thrice-damned exclaimation points. And I was already struggling with Zelazny's "formal language/ colloquial language" swaps then. However, I'm pretty much a geek.

quote:
I see writing as like a film, if the filmmaker decides to get inside one character's head, and there are inner thoughts expressed through narration, the narration is limited to that character. But within that limited viewpoint, the camera can be wherever the director wants it to be, revealing things that the main character may not know about.

The problem is that writing is not a film. It's writing, a completely different art form. You can get away with stuff in film that you can't in writing, because with film you get to hook into that visual mode. A picture really *is* worth a thousand words; it's a much easier and more natural way of explaining things. And you can get away with things in writing you can't in film, namely, presenting the character's inner thoughts (some films use voiceovers, but this is risky and often leads to audience rejection: see Bladerunner).

You can't treat a book like a film, or vice versa, without badly mangling things.

I am not a total POV Nazi in other people's work, though I am in my own. But I usually end up complaining about POV switches for one reason or another. They are too often symptomatic of someone who isn't paying proper attention to the story as a whole.


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Kazander42
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I personally like to think of all art as a great big pool of cool stuff that we somewhat artificially group and segregate. In many ways, the structures we impose upon art (genre, form, etc.) are useful, but breaking outside of the norm is also useful. Literature is most interesting when it breaks genres, when it breaks forms. I admit that you cannot always think of writing as film, but doing so in certain cases yields interesting results. The comic book is essentially the closest form to a half and half amalgamation, the illustrated story is closer to the norm of fiction, and the film-like fiction I have described is even closer to the 'fiction norm.' Each form of art is valid on its own, and if used for specific stylistic reasons, can be very successful. Art has been mixed and bastardized successfully many times, imagist poets (painting-like poetry), song-poems, comic books, paintings with deliberate messages or meanings, poetic prose, prosaic poetry (prasaic=right term? I think it means something else, but you know what I mean), drama which is not meant to be performed, metafiction, fictional-newscasts (War of the Worlds), the list goes on and on.

Form and genre and such are helpful distinctions, but getting outside of those things can be amazing (or terrible, if not doen right)

Getting back to the POV thing, as long as it doesn't disturb the reader, I don't think minor deviations are problematic.


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Kazander42
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A picture may be worth a thousand words, but what if you only want to say seven of them. That is the power of writing visually. In a picture, the visual center of the brain is carpet bombed with the thousand words of information, and the artist must in some way differentiate those seven words which are what make the picture important. Writing, while not being able to reproduce the concise lushness of the so-called thousand-word-picture, can give the audience exactly what it needs to convey the artist's point.

There are always two sides to every coin.

[This message has been edited by Kazander42 (edited April 23, 2005).]


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Jeraliey
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I'm unconvinced.

It's been my experience that people on the boards don't (generally) comment on aspects of posted fragments which do not catch their eyes for some reason or another.

It seems this whole argument is presupposing that the "creative" POV treatment didn't jar anyone out of the writing. It seems this is wrong. It's not that the POV was nontraditional; it's more likely that it was inconsistent (or whatever) enough to create confusion and/or warrant comment.

The discussion on the intricacies of creative POV-ing is a valuable one, but I think this discussion's premise is based on a relatively invalid assumption.

$0.02; feel free to disregard as the opinion they represent.


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Elan
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I agree with Jeraliey. It seems to me that the point you took issue was had nothing to do with POV and everything to do with the fact that you didn't like the critiques you received of your writing.

I am a fairly recent newbie myself, so I can empathize. And I have also seen a few times where everyone leaps on something that was written, like a pack of ravening wolves.

I try to keep in mind something that was said in response to a comment I made about literary devices on a different thread - and that is, as writers, we should all be constantly trying to improve our skills.

We have an extraordinary opportunity on this board, to have our work and our style read and examined by other writers who then offer freely of their time to offer opinions and suggestions for improvement.

Anytime a writer has twenty people read a piece, and 3/4 of them come back with a critique identifying a common issue as a problem, I should hope the writer would take their comments under thoughtful consideration. After all, the people on this board aren't trying to insult you or discredit you, they are trying to help.

I think everyone should experiment from time to time with alternative POV, style, cadence, tone. But realize, when you use a different form, that it may require a little more dilligence to write successfully.

The opinions expressed on this board (including the one you are now reading ) are just that - opinions. You can accept them or not. But please don't get upset because they've been expressed! After all, if you don't want our opinions, it's a bit counterproductive to ask for them, ain't it?



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Kazander42
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Oddly enough, this topic was spawned when I was reading a critique of someone else's work. I used an example from my one story, but it was a very minor thing that didn't really bother me. The comment I was making was actually referring to times I have seen people jump on someone else's piece with a POV flaw that was either (in my possibly [probably?] flawed opinion) irrelevant or nonexistant. After my initial rant, I have been more interested in speaking of POV in general, and really, I'm just using POV as a specific example of creative rule-breaking in general, not only limited to POV. I just try do defend the author's ability to mess around with form to see if cool things happen. This approach almost never works out, but if instead of saying something to the effect of: "What you just did is wrong, change it." when encountering a deliberate break in form, we as reviewers say "What you just did doesn't work as it is, what were you trying to achieve with it?" and from there use the answer to that question to help the author achieve his or her pupose better.

Basically, I'm saying that to really help a person write a story better, it helps to know exactly what the author is trying to do, so that even if it doesn't work, we can work together to possibly make it work, rather than changing it to a more conventional, and easier, form.


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Beth
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The thing is, 99% of the time, people who think they are being "artistic" or "taking risks" or "being experimental" just don't understand the basic mechanics of writing.

I don't care at all why someone made particular choices in telling their story. I care about the result. If the result is a failure, there is an extraordinarily high chance that application of basic techniques will fix the problem.

When I hear hoofbeats, as the saying goes, I don't assume it's a zebra. And you may not be acting in your own best interest as a writer by focusing so much on zebras.


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Elan
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quote:
Basically, I'm saying that to really help a person write a story better, it helps to know exactly what the author is trying to do.

In considering the philosophical aspect of critiquing, I can merely state how I approach it. When I critique a work, I approach it as a reader approaches any written story.

In general, AS A READER, I don't know the author's intention, nor do I care. I read the story one time through and don't go back through it and microanalyze it in an effort to ferret out the author's meaning.

You get one shot with the reader. If you lose them, you won't get them back. So my comments when I critique are really just the disgorging of my thoughts that pop up in my head while I'm making that first (and possibly only) read through the material.

Now, that is an entirely different approach than if a writer solicits advice on technical skill.

I suppose POV is a technical issue that gets hammered a lot simply because it's such a critical one. I would hammer on spelling if I felt someone wasn't making at least a rudimentary effort to spell check. There are certain glaring technical defects that completely derail the reader.

I assume, given the plethora of comments we've had about POV, that the vast majority of folk feel that well-written, clearly expressed POV is an essential technical tool in our writerly bag of tricks.


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Kazander42
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Beth, I understand that when getting a work critiqued, the most important reaction is the reader's, and if the reader doesn't get it, nobody wins. I truly get this, and I value that sort of criticism. Once the author knows that his or her story isn't working, it helps for other people to know exactly the effect or emotion or concept that the writer was trying to evoke, so that the reviewer can HELP the author get his story to a point where it is effective.

Something like this:
"Hey, this wasn't working for me as a reader."
"Oh really, well I was trying to do this because . . ."
"Oh, ok. Maybe you should try doing this way to achieve that effect"

That's all I'm asking, and that is all I mean when I say that sometimes the writer letting the reviewer know the intent of the story (after the initial critique) can be helpful. If you do not want to review that way, that's cool, but for me personally, it would be tremendously helpful for my writing, and that sort of feedback would help me better guide someone else's writing as I am reviewing it.

[This message has been edited by Kazander42 (edited April 24, 2005).]


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Doc Brown
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When I am critiquing I always point out POV changes and how they affect me as a reader. I never classify them as good or bad.

I do this because I've found most writers at our stage don't have a good handle on POV. Sometimes they change POV without realizing it, just because it seemed like the thing to do at the time.

To a writer, every single word is critical. We fiction writers must be especially careful about every word. Even in our syllables we must consider grammar, characterization, cadence, viewpoint . . . everything.

Remember, writing is about language first and creativity second. The most brilliant idea in the world is useless if you take your communication skills for granted.


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Kazander42
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I think we can safely say that this topic is exhausted. I'll shut up now
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Beth
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If an author writes a frag that goes like this:

-Look out, Clarissa! The evil robot monkeys are attacking!
-I see them, Derek, I'm not an idiot.

I might suggest that using dashes instead of quotation marks is a problem in the dialog.

I think you're suggesting that instead of me saying "use conventional punctuation because your unconventional punctuation is distracting" we have this conversation:

A: Your use of unconventional punctuation for dialog didn't work didn't work for me. What were you trying to do here?
B: Tell an interesting story that engages the reader.
A: Oh. Then try using a conventional punctuation that doesn't disrupt the story, so that the reader can stay engaged.


I can't figure out why B's line would be anything different than what I've written above. If B is says anything else ("Cormac McCarthy uses unconventional punctuation and it looks cool so I want to try it!" or whatever) then B is more focused on implementing some technique than on telling the story, and is completely missing the point.


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Survivor
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By the way, just to clarify something that I didn't explicitly state in my other post:

There is no more substantial literary concern than POV.

POV has been called various things, but the concept is fundamental to all literature. In times before the modern conventions of fiction as a legitimate catagory of literature came to exist, the concept of narrator was very important. I think that my own favorite term is "means of perception".

The essential purpose of all literature is to relate the story to the audience. POV is the means by which we establish where a reader will stand in relationship to the story. It is the basic distinction between a list of events and a narrative.

Most the people that have gotten a few of my critiques realize that I can go on forever about just about anything that could be slightly changed or "improved" in a story. But my most substantive criticisms always center around POV, because it is the foundation of our art.


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RFLong
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As I think I've said elsewhere on the board, I'm reading Sol Stein's writing book at the moment. I'd highly recommend it, not least for his section on POV.

He thinks it boils down to this - and I agree with him or I wouldn't be posting it here - a POV violation is anything which jerks the reader out of the flow of the story, anything which makes them go "hang on a sec". If you can handle moving between the thoughts of characters and idiom without disrupting the reader then great, go for it. If not, you have a problem and need to start hitting it with a red pen. That may sound pretty open, but its far from it. Good POV means very, very careful writing, no matter what form you choose.

R


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Jaina
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Though there are times when experimenting with POV can still get you published... but usually that's only if you are already a respected author. Yukio Mishima's "Patriotism" drives me crazy because he'll jump from POV to POV without so much as a line break, and every time he jerks me out of the story until I figure out who's thinking, but he still managed to get it published (and on the required reading list for one of my classes).
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RavenStarr
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Kazander42:
I completely agree with you... and I even slightly mentioned this once myself (I resisted the temptation to rant on it, however). People around here seem to very commonly get confused about the concept of 3rd person POV’s. They seem to most commonly only understand the POV either being 1st person, or third person following almost identical as if it were 1st person... anything else, and they jump all over it. This leaves for very limited writing because it makes a lot of necessary description impossible.
But it's ok... end result simply being that I just get all my work edited elsewhere.

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Lord Darkstorm
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When I am reading a book, I rarely notice the POV of the book unless I am thinking about it (rare) or when it jolts me out of the story. I will admit that some authors are better than others, but POV is just that. If it is consistant, most people won't notice it. If it is unusual and doesn't work well, everyone will. Regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks, consistant POV is mandatory to good writing.

If POV is something that comes up all the time, then you should examine what might be wrong with it first. No matter how creative it is, any story that is to cumbersome or confusing for the reader won't get read. I like reading stories that don't require me to try and figure out what the author is saying. If I spend too much time figuring out what is going on I'll go find something else to read.

Always remember you are writing for an audience. If you are only writing for yourself, then it is pointless to ask others to read it. Since audiences expect certain things, you can provide those things, or not. Bad movies get bad ratings and low movie sales. Same thing happens to books.


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JBSkaggs
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Anything that reduces the invisibility between the writing and the story is a serious problem. Why do that?

The mark of a great writer is that you don't notice the great writing- rather you are engrossed by the story.

If you begin jumping around POV mind hopping, narrator commenting etc it might seem cute to you the writer but to the reader it completely destroys the immersion in the story.

The goal of fiction writing for professional writers is to sell great stories over and over and over. If you do things that reduces the readers adventure with your story you reduce the story's ability to sell. Anything that reduces your sales is poison to your career as a writer.


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Kazander42
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Oddly enough, after this discussion, I bought a Writing magazine (The Writer, May 2005) for the second time in my life, and it had a really good article on the use of POV in the classic short story 'An Occurence and Owl Creek Bridge' by Ambrose Bierce.

Within was a definition of 3rd person limited omniscient: (my **s)

quote:
By definition, **this narrator potentially knows all things pertinent to the story**, even a character's very thoughts. Limited omniscience, however, chooses the mind of only one character--in this case, Farquhar's--and enters it extensively. At anytime, this narrator can move into the chosen character's mind and thoughts, or tell us about the outward world of the story.

I would assume that this type of POV also could include a narrator who does not go inside the head of any characters, it is just more even more limited than the standard.

What started this rant off originally was the misconception that some people had that limited meant that the narrator knows only what the character knows, and must speak in or close to the character's voice. This would be essentially be first person (mis)using third person pronouns. The limited part only limits the narrator's abilities to get into the minds of characters other than the single focus-character, not the narrator's ability to tell parts of the story that are outside of the focus-character's knowledge. Ppeople sometimes get the concepts of omniscience and limited character focus within POV mixed up, as well as mixing the entire concept of POV up with narrative voice (ex. the language that the narrator uses).

I would assume that 3rd. Limited Omniscient is the standard of most fiction, and I have nothing against it, and in fact can't see myself straying from it very much at all (if ever). It is the basic mode of storytelling, and extremely important. Hope this clears up my initial frustration, I was not advocating misusing POV, rather I was attempting (though not very eloquently to be sure) to combat misconceptions of POV.

I hope the tone of this post seems much more humble than the first, I was quite fiery on that first one . If anything comes off as snarky (and I definitely hope nobody detects anything so harsh as boojosity!), I really didn't mean it to be so, I'm totally cool, calm, and collected. And humble, dont' forget humble.


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Doc Brown
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You can also choose to write a story in second person.

Don't mistake the fact that there is a definition for it as proof that it is a good narrative style for you. Current reader culture prefers third person limited or first person. Anything else is a risk, and only a skillfull writer can use them without bearing the wrath of critiquers and rejection from editors.

Repeat: frequent POV shifts will always get complaints from your critiquers.

Always.

This doesn't make them bad.

I've been reading a lot of old stories lately from the 50s. These stories use a lot of POV shifts and dive frequently in and out of the omniscient narrator. The style seems quaint. If they were submitted today I expect they could be published, but first the editor would ask the writer to fix all the POV problems to bring them up to current standards.


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Beth
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yeah. Bierce died in 1914 or so, didn't he? I wouldn't model my use of POV on him any more than I'd model my use of exposition on Moby Dick.
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Kazander42
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quote:
Repeat: frequent POV shifts will always get complaints from your critiquers.

What I just said previously agrees with that sentiment. I don't know where the hold up is. The POV is focused on one (and only one character) which is what makes it 3rd person LIMITED omniscient. So yes, if there were frequent changes of POV in that setting, then there would be a problem. I am not advocating changes in POV.

To Beth: The definition of that POV is about as modern as it gets; 3rd person limted omniscient hasn't changed or gone out of style, it has pretty much been the standard of all the professional writings I have read. The POV used in that story is standard narrative practice. You use it. I use it. It is the basic method of narration; when you tell a story verbally, chances are, you are speaking in it. POV doesn't change over the course of history. And the fact that we remember the story nearly a century after the author's death should tell you something.

The article presents a fantastic argument about the importance and use of POV, it actually goes into detail about how Bierce uses the POV to make the reader believe that his main character is escaping when in reality he is not. I suggest anyone interested check it out, it has really cemented the importance of POV for me. I suggest anyone in doubt should check it out. And the concepts contained are truly not dated in any way, and are extremely helpful to the inexperienced writer, or anyone open to learning from classic literature.


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Beth
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Oh, never mind. What I said probably sounded snarky.

[This message has been edited by Beth (edited April 25, 2005).]


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Beth
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There is a difference between 3rd person and limited omniscient and you might want to do a little more research into the two terms instead of conflating them.

In the majority of my stories I am quite diligent about using 3rd person with deep penetration. Which of my stories have you read that used limited omniscient?

[This message has been edited by Beth (edited April 25, 2005).]


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Kazander42
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Indeed it did. If it wasn't intended to, I hope I didn't sound too snarky in return, I think I was being civil, but it is so hard to communicate emotion without voice, written text can make you sound like a bastard when you are trying to be civil.

Let me ask this to clarify:
If I was writing in standard POV (whatever we consider that to be, not exactly sure what we call it) and said:
. . . [ main character] didn't notice [detail]
OR
. . . [action] happened behind [main character]

would you consider that a break in the POV, even if the narrator didn't go into the inner thoughts of another character? Or is the action presented limited only to what that character perceives? This is where the hang up is for me. I personally don't think so, but then, I did a quick flip through of some books and couldn't find any of these constructions, so maybe I have not noticed their absence until now.

[This message has been edited by Kazander42 (edited April 25, 2005).]


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Kazander42
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quote:
In the majority of my stories I am quite diligent about using 3rd person with deep penetration. Which of my stories have you read that used limited omniscient?

I wasn't actually referring to any of your work in general, when I said I do it, you do it, I was making one of those generalities that tends to get people in trouble. Kind of sounds like the lawyer on Seinfeld: "I know it! you know it! and the pope knows it!" That sort of silliness.


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Kazander42
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PS: You made me have to go to dictionary.com to figure out exactly what conflate meant. Shame on you for broadening my vocabulary!
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Beth
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no, you didn't sound at all snarky! i am trying really hard not to be snarky either, but snark comes naturally to me.

that's what 3rd person means - you're limited to what the character percieves - it is very similar to the limitations of 1st person. Unlike 1st person though you can vary the depth of penetration in 3rd person. (Well, I guess you could do 1st with light penetration but you'd probably sound like a sociopath and you'd be giving up the whole reason to try 1st.)

the two examples you give would be POV lapses in 3rd, yes. they'd be dandy in omniscient.

But the thing is, a lot of less experienced writers write in a nice tight 3rd, and then they get to a point where they need to describe something that's oh behind the character's back, so they just describe it, and then claim that what they're doing is omniscient rather than 3rd with lapses. In order for omniscient to work, you have to establish it early and thoroughly and not get stuck in one character's head. It is very difficult, and most often done very badly.


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Kazander42
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I thought third person referred strictly to the inflecton of the personal pronouns (I.e. 3rd person narrator uses he/she/it/they etc., ditto for 1st and 2nd person, only using their respective pronouns) and adding qualifiers such as omniscient, limited, and some further option that we could call totally detached (the much debated 'cinematic approach, lets not go there, haha) dictate the level of involvment of the narrator with the characters and the narrative scope (as in what physical action the narrator comments upon). It seems we have a difference in terminology, which is what is causing the major malfunction.
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Kazander42
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The way I see it is that POV has three facets:

Person (1,2,3) - Dictates the personal pronouns used. (I/we, you, he/she/it/they)

Character focus (inner thoughts and the like): Single character, all characters, no characters

Narrative Scope (what exactly the narrator 'sees'): All action, limited action (specific character focus/perception).

Make sense?

[This message has been edited by Kazander42 (edited April 25, 2005).]


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Kazander42
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Aww geez, the post number was 42 and I didn't even notice it before I ruined it. Oh well, maybe next time, if we talk this long again

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Survivor
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Relying on terminology at all is pointless. POV isn't about whether you are technically using 3rd person limited omniscient or first person fictional narrator or artificial histography.

POV is about where you put your reader in relation to the events and characters of the story. That's why we use the term "point of view".

There are issues of what is "conventional" and whatnot, and you can spot technical POV violations pretty easily using a system of rules. But in a recent critique I pointed out to a writer that even though the story was grammatically in first, the narrator of the story didn't seem to be the person to whom the story happened, the "I" in the text. That's not something you spot using rules, at least, not simple rules.

POV is functional. You judge it by how it affects the reader, not by technical points. You use the technical points to spot easy ways to fix a POV that isn't working well.


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Beth
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OK, sort of. In a way omniscient is a species of 3rd. but it is way easier to think of them separately.

In 3rd you are restricted to what the character perceives. There are various levels of penetration - how deep in the character's head are you? Light penetration, you only get actions - deep penetration, you get the character's emotions and thoughts and so on.

In omniscient you are not limited to the POV character's perceptions and can thus tell us what's behind the character's back. It can be fairly tightly focused so you're mostly watching one character and his back, or broader and skipping all over the place.

clearly you and I have different models for labeling POV.


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Beth
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oops, survivor slipped in ahead of me.
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Lord Darkstorm
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I think the problem is not what you are trying to say, but what the rest of us are trying to say. There is nothing wrong with omnipoten viewpoints...if done well. How many people can do them well? I wouldn't try at this point. The shifts have to be natural and clear to the point the reader doesn't ever notice there is a shift.

Another reason so many people are picky about it is because new writers will choose omnipotent thinking they are doing it correctly when they aren't. Also, it is annoying to have to read a story that is so confusing in POV that the story itself is diminished, if not destoyed, by the annoyance of not being clear.

My point is that if reading is complicated and annoying, I won't do it. I read all the time, 3rd limited, 3rd omnipotent, 1st person, I don't see 2nd hardly ever, but I enjoy them quite often. Why? Because the POV is not confusing or annoying. Most of the time I don't even notice, and would have to go back and look to see what it was written in. That is what is required to have a good story. The content is irrelevant if no one can read it.

Maybe if we use a different example. Lets say someone who doesn't speak english well is utterly brilliant. Now this person decided to write a paper which is the most remarkable concept ever created. Only the english is so mangled that no one can get past the first page to even realize there is actual usefull content behind it. No one will read or accept it since it sounds like giberish. It doesn't make the concept any less valuable, but it does make it unusable by people who can't get past the way it was written.

To communicate with someone else, there has to be a common way of doing so. In english we have rules that help you understand me, and for me to understand you. How well we put those words together is how well you, or anyone else, will understand what I wish to say. If I do it poorly, I loose not only the possibility of you understanding...I risk you not bothering to listen at all.

So if we want to write for other people, we have to do it in a way they will accept and be comfortable with. POV is the a basic concept that MUST be right before people can become a part of the story. The story still needs other things to make it good, but bad POV will stand out and diminish anything else that might be good.

I have had my POV issues, as most people have when they first start. One of the things that indicates a beginning writer is POV problems. Another sign is the explination, "I'm doing Omnipotient". Which often times (not always) means, "I haven't figured out how to write in a POV". This is something that happens all the time, and the same excuses are used over and over. So as time goes on, the patience for dealing with it gets thinner. If I were to tell someone that the POV is jarring and doesn't work, I could care less that the story is a masterpiece of fiction in the eyes of the writer. I have several 10k word pieces of crap I've felt were masterpieces as well. I was wrong. It all comes back to learning.

I still get irritated when people just don't like my style of story. It isn't thier fault, but it is hard to take. If we didn't love to write, and weren't in some way proud of what we are doing...why would we do it? It just takes some time to realize that because we can string a few paragraphs together doesn't make us a master. It takes work. After two years of hacking at it, I think I've moved up to somewhere in the intermediat category. I still make mistakes, and some of my stories just suck. I do have my POV down pretty well and have very few issues most of the time. So even my sucky stories can be read for what's in them...even if it isn't always worth the time.

It all boils down to the fact that if you don't want to learn to properly do POV, not many people are going to want to take the time to read it.


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Beth
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word.

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dpatridge
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but occasionally someone actually IS doing omniscient and is making a conscious effort to do so.

i also disagree that omniscient HAS to either be centered or broad. it can be set up as broad and then filter in to center on various characters depending on the scene.

handling omniscient, as has been said time and time again, however, is VERY hard, and not to be done unless your story truly calls for it, and then you have to be careful to never go too deep into any single character and never go too far away from any single character. you have to give this omniscient narrator a voice and a presense, it doesn't work to have a detached narrator. even if your omniscient narrator is "god" you must make certain that the reader hears "god" not a screwed up version of all the characters mangled together.


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Kazander42
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quote:
It all boils down to the fact that if you don't want to learn to properly do POV, not many people are going to want to take the time to read it.

That is exactly what I am trying to do with this thread now. I have been trying to get clarity as to what exactly is acceptable in a 3rd person limited POV, what is not typically jarring to the reader, ect. Did you only read my initial post? If so, then I can agree with the above statement; I was just a bit fiery and had a few things mixed up. Now , however, I am trying to clear a serious issue up for myself, so when I submit stories here in the future y'all can spend less time saying "Fix your damned POV" every time I write something, and focusing on other parts of the story, and I can then spend time developing other skills instead of constanly fixing POV errors.


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wbriggs
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3PL means that everything in the scene is something perceived, done, or thought by the viewpoint character. Another's thoughts are not accessible, and things the viewpoint character can't see aren't accessible. The viewpoint character's thoughts _are_ accessible.

3PL, deep penetration, has the thoughts of the viewpoint character, not labeled as thoughts (because it's obvious), as in

quote:
"If you must," Joe said. Susan sure was being controlling. She must be hell to live with.

...Susan may or may not be hell to live with, but Joe thinks so.

...so that's the terms.

REcommended reading: Character and Viewpoint, Orson Scott Card.

[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited April 26, 2005).]


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Lord Darkstorm
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I found a very good set of POV explinations in the book "Description" by Monica Wood. OSC's books on writing are good as well.

You can find also find a large selection of examples on most book shelves. Just open one up and figure out which POV it is written in and spend a little time seeing the authors choice of words. Pay attention to the pronouns, and what the author is choosing to tell you. Or better put, what the character is telling you. (Withholding information from the reader is another item that will get you jumped all over as well.)

I would also suggest that if you are working on POV, you can just let people know up front that you are. Someone (probably quite a few) will be happy to look and help point out problems, and possibly give suggestions to fix it. Most of the time, if you ask for help, you will get it. Usually depends on how you ask.

There are other common problems that will get a chorus of similar remarks: passive voice, showing vs telling, grammar, and a few others I can't pull off the top of my head. New writers often have excuses for these problems, the most common for grammar is, "I read in some author's book that rules can be broken." Shame most miss the part that explained they needed to know the rules first. Anyone needing help should say so.


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KatFeete
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quote:

If I was writing in standard POV (whatever we consider that to be, not exactly sure what we call it) and said:
. . . [ main character] didn't notice [detail]
OR
. . . [action] happened behind [main character]

would you consider that a break in the POV?


Yup.

If we're talking third person limited, anyway. But really, in both cases, it depends. There's many varieties of third limited. I use what OSC terms "deep penetration", but since I can't use that phrase without snickering, I call it "tight focus" POV. You are completely in the character's head, seeing entirely from their point of view. For my stories that is essential. I write character-based stories; it's the people, and the feeling of being those people, that my first readers tell me is the most appealing thing about my work. To do as you say and show things they can't see comprimises the integrity of the viewpoint and thus the appeal of my work.

A lot of writers consider the strong point of their stories something else - the setting, for example, or the aliens, or the plot itself. In such cases it's easier to get away with.

I should also add that my stories are told from the point of view of one character. This is unusual; most stories, especially novels, now have two, or three, or many narrators, most commonly with chapter breaks to indicate a shift in narrator. There, too, you can probably get away with minor POV violations.

The other problem is when and why you break POV. If you do it all the time, you're writing omniscient, though probably a bad version of omniscient, which is a form that requires self-conciousness. If you do it frequently, you're writing bad third limited. If you use it seldom, you're on the right track... and should now be asking why you're using it. Is it really, truly necessary that the reader know what's going on behind the narrator's back? Is there some other way to say the same thing without breaking POV?

Where I've seen these sort of minor breaks used most effectively is to increase the drama, usually at the end of a chapter or the like, to "clue in" the reader to something sinister or important that the narrator doesn't know. Where I've seen them used badly is in the middle of a chapter for some minor action that didn't matter or (God help us) as an attempt at humor.

In general you need to be most worried about POV if:

a) You write character stories.

b) Your first readers complain that your characters are dull, boring, predictable, or simply unreadable.

If you're not in those categories, worry less - but think of it as having a limited supply of violations, after which you will loose the confidence of the reader. Use with care, attention, and most of all awareness that you're breaking the rules.


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Doc Brown
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Kazander, you asked how to handle events a character doesn't notice. The general rule is that if your character isn't aware of it, you CANNOT mention it without changing POV.

Nevertheless, here are some suggestions:

The easiest places to slip into omniscient POV are at the beginning or ending of a chapter. Try it, you'll see it has a smoother flow.

You can tell things your character doesn't know while preserving POV by changing verb tense. "Meanwhile, he didn't see the monster sneaking up behind him . . ." can become "Years later, he would wonder why he couldn't hear the wheezing lungs of the monster as it crept up on him . . ."

Use either practice sparingly. Rapid POV shifts are an excellent way to design a tense story, but they are a lousy way to deliver a tense story.


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Beth
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I disagree that POV is less important in some stories. It's always always fundamental. For a character story yeah, 3rd with deep penetration (HA HA HA, yes, we're all 13-year-old-boys at heart, move on) is perfect. For other stories you might want a broader POV. but it's still essential and if you screw it up I'll hurl the book across the room and never buy another one.

To add to LDS's list of Basics That Always Come Up, add infodumps, spending way too much time in flashbacks instead of telling the story, handling of internal monologue.


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wbriggs
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For tension (sometimes) I like to switch POV; I do it with a section break so the reader knows what's up, as in:

John .................................................................
#
Jane ..............
#
John ...............................................

Obviously this could be overdone.


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enwalker
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After reading this thread yesterday, I suddenly remembered my favorite of the new (to me) books I've read recently, _Horse Heaven_ by Pulitzer author Jane Smiley. It is relevant to this discussion because she jumps around in 3rd person and tells the story from at least ten different characters' points of view, including one horse and one dog, several trainers, a jockey, several owners, & a breeder. If you are interested in making "3rd person multiple" work, get this book! It is a joy to read, the kind of book that you are sorry to see end.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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quote:
What started this rant off originally was the misconception that some people had that limited meant that the narrator knows only what the character knows, and must speak in or close to the character's voice. This would be essentially be first person (mis)using third person pronouns.

Actually, the above would not be essentially first person with third person pronouns.

It might look like first person with third person pronouns, but because it uses third person pronouns it can do things that true first person can not:

Make the character more sympathetic by being able to talk about the good qualities of the character without sounding like boasting.

Increase tension regarding whether or not, or at least, how the character survives the story.

Create a greater feeling of immediacy and intimacy--a first person story tends to give the reader the feeling that what happens in the story is remembered (in the character's past) and is therefore distant, but a third person story tends to give the reader the feeling that what happens in the story is being experienced as it happens and thus is more immediate and more intimate.

So even though all that may be different in the actual writing are the pronouns, the effect on the reader can be very different between first person and third person limited.


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Kazander42
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Ooh, I feel all warm and tingly inside, a response from Katheleen herself! Thanks for the clarification, that really helps calm what has been going on inside my noggin'.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Calm and tingly at the same time?

Happy to be of service.


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