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Author Topic: POV Critique
dpatridge
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but occasionally someone actually IS doing omniscient and is making a conscious effort to do so.

i also disagree that omniscient HAS to either be centered or broad. it can be set up as broad and then filter in to center on various characters depending on the scene.

handling omniscient, as has been said time and time again, however, is VERY hard, and not to be done unless your story truly calls for it, and then you have to be careful to never go too deep into any single character and never go too far away from any single character. you have to give this omniscient narrator a voice and a presense, it doesn't work to have a detached narrator. even if your omniscient narrator is "god" you must make certain that the reader hears "god" not a screwed up version of all the characters mangled together.


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Kazander42
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quote:
It all boils down to the fact that if you don't want to learn to properly do POV, not many people are going to want to take the time to read it.

That is exactly what I am trying to do with this thread now. I have been trying to get clarity as to what exactly is acceptable in a 3rd person limited POV, what is not typically jarring to the reader, ect. Did you only read my initial post? If so, then I can agree with the above statement; I was just a bit fiery and had a few things mixed up. Now , however, I am trying to clear a serious issue up for myself, so when I submit stories here in the future y'all can spend less time saying "Fix your damned POV" every time I write something, and focusing on other parts of the story, and I can then spend time developing other skills instead of constanly fixing POV errors.


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wbriggs
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3PL means that everything in the scene is something perceived, done, or thought by the viewpoint character. Another's thoughts are not accessible, and things the viewpoint character can't see aren't accessible. The viewpoint character's thoughts _are_ accessible.

3PL, deep penetration, has the thoughts of the viewpoint character, not labeled as thoughts (because it's obvious), as in

quote:
"If you must," Joe said. Susan sure was being controlling. She must be hell to live with.

...Susan may or may not be hell to live with, but Joe thinks so.

...so that's the terms.

REcommended reading: Character and Viewpoint, Orson Scott Card.

[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited April 26, 2005).]


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Lord Darkstorm
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I found a very good set of POV explinations in the book "Description" by Monica Wood. OSC's books on writing are good as well.

You can find also find a large selection of examples on most book shelves. Just open one up and figure out which POV it is written in and spend a little time seeing the authors choice of words. Pay attention to the pronouns, and what the author is choosing to tell you. Or better put, what the character is telling you. (Withholding information from the reader is another item that will get you jumped all over as well.)

I would also suggest that if you are working on POV, you can just let people know up front that you are. Someone (probably quite a few) will be happy to look and help point out problems, and possibly give suggestions to fix it. Most of the time, if you ask for help, you will get it. Usually depends on how you ask.

There are other common problems that will get a chorus of similar remarks: passive voice, showing vs telling, grammar, and a few others I can't pull off the top of my head. New writers often have excuses for these problems, the most common for grammar is, "I read in some author's book that rules can be broken." Shame most miss the part that explained they needed to know the rules first. Anyone needing help should say so.


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KatFeete
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quote:

If I was writing in standard POV (whatever we consider that to be, not exactly sure what we call it) and said:
. . . [ main character] didn't notice [detail]
OR
. . . [action] happened behind [main character]

would you consider that a break in the POV?


Yup.

If we're talking third person limited, anyway. But really, in both cases, it depends. There's many varieties of third limited. I use what OSC terms "deep penetration", but since I can't use that phrase without snickering, I call it "tight focus" POV. You are completely in the character's head, seeing entirely from their point of view. For my stories that is essential. I write character-based stories; it's the people, and the feeling of being those people, that my first readers tell me is the most appealing thing about my work. To do as you say and show things they can't see comprimises the integrity of the viewpoint and thus the appeal of my work.

A lot of writers consider the strong point of their stories something else - the setting, for example, or the aliens, or the plot itself. In such cases it's easier to get away with.

I should also add that my stories are told from the point of view of one character. This is unusual; most stories, especially novels, now have two, or three, or many narrators, most commonly with chapter breaks to indicate a shift in narrator. There, too, you can probably get away with minor POV violations.

The other problem is when and why you break POV. If you do it all the time, you're writing omniscient, though probably a bad version of omniscient, which is a form that requires self-conciousness. If you do it frequently, you're writing bad third limited. If you use it seldom, you're on the right track... and should now be asking why you're using it. Is it really, truly necessary that the reader know what's going on behind the narrator's back? Is there some other way to say the same thing without breaking POV?

Where I've seen these sort of minor breaks used most effectively is to increase the drama, usually at the end of a chapter or the like, to "clue in" the reader to something sinister or important that the narrator doesn't know. Where I've seen them used badly is in the middle of a chapter for some minor action that didn't matter or (God help us) as an attempt at humor.

In general you need to be most worried about POV if:

a) You write character stories.

b) Your first readers complain that your characters are dull, boring, predictable, or simply unreadable.

If you're not in those categories, worry less - but think of it as having a limited supply of violations, after which you will loose the confidence of the reader. Use with care, attention, and most of all awareness that you're breaking the rules.


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Doc Brown
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Kazander, you asked how to handle events a character doesn't notice. The general rule is that if your character isn't aware of it, you CANNOT mention it without changing POV.

Nevertheless, here are some suggestions:

The easiest places to slip into omniscient POV are at the beginning or ending of a chapter. Try it, you'll see it has a smoother flow.

You can tell things your character doesn't know while preserving POV by changing verb tense. "Meanwhile, he didn't see the monster sneaking up behind him . . ." can become "Years later, he would wonder why he couldn't hear the wheezing lungs of the monster as it crept up on him . . ."

Use either practice sparingly. Rapid POV shifts are an excellent way to design a tense story, but they are a lousy way to deliver a tense story.


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Beth
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I disagree that POV is less important in some stories. It's always always fundamental. For a character story yeah, 3rd with deep penetration (HA HA HA, yes, we're all 13-year-old-boys at heart, move on) is perfect. For other stories you might want a broader POV. but it's still essential and if you screw it up I'll hurl the book across the room and never buy another one.

To add to LDS's list of Basics That Always Come Up, add infodumps, spending way too much time in flashbacks instead of telling the story, handling of internal monologue.


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wbriggs
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For tension (sometimes) I like to switch POV; I do it with a section break so the reader knows what's up, as in:

John .................................................................
#
Jane ..............
#
John ...............................................

Obviously this could be overdone.


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enwalker
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After reading this thread yesterday, I suddenly remembered my favorite of the new (to me) books I've read recently, _Horse Heaven_ by Pulitzer author Jane Smiley. It is relevant to this discussion because she jumps around in 3rd person and tells the story from at least ten different characters' points of view, including one horse and one dog, several trainers, a jockey, several owners, & a breeder. If you are interested in making "3rd person multiple" work, get this book! It is a joy to read, the kind of book that you are sorry to see end.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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quote:
What started this rant off originally was the misconception that some people had that limited meant that the narrator knows only what the character knows, and must speak in or close to the character's voice. This would be essentially be first person (mis)using third person pronouns.

Actually, the above would not be essentially first person with third person pronouns.

It might look like first person with third person pronouns, but because it uses third person pronouns it can do things that true first person can not:

Make the character more sympathetic by being able to talk about the good qualities of the character without sounding like boasting.

Increase tension regarding whether or not, or at least, how the character survives the story.

Create a greater feeling of immediacy and intimacy--a first person story tends to give the reader the feeling that what happens in the story is remembered (in the character's past) and is therefore distant, but a third person story tends to give the reader the feeling that what happens in the story is being experienced as it happens and thus is more immediate and more intimate.

So even though all that may be different in the actual writing are the pronouns, the effect on the reader can be very different between first person and third person limited.


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Kazander42
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Ooh, I feel all warm and tingly inside, a response from Katheleen herself! Thanks for the clarification, that really helps calm what has been going on inside my noggin'.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Calm and tingly at the same time?

Happy to be of service.


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