posted
I find I've been repeating the same thing over and over in comments on first thirteens, and also on stories, so I'm going to bring them here, in hopes that I can reference this post and save myself a lot of writing.
Here are three things that I find in a lot of Hatrack stories that, IMHO, are going to cause the editor to stop reading your story and reject it out of hand.
1) Stories are made up of sentences. If your first two or three pages have more than two sentence fragments or run-on sentences, the editor will stop reading and send it back. The same goes for bad grammar and spelling. Don't plan on becoming a writer first and then learning basic English. Go to your local college and take English 101. Then write.
2) Stories are best told in chronological order. The following example is a bad way to begin a story:
Jon Eric Snark grabbed the orc by the throat and ripped his head off. Earlier that day, when Jon first rode into the little town of Tumtum on the Piddle on his Snagglebeast...
Tell stories in chronological order. As soon as the editor hits that flashback, out comes the rejection slip.
3) Everything in a story has to be interesting. Telling a good story is partly about putting in interesting stuff, but almost as important is leaving out boring stuff. As soon as your story recounts what Jon Eric Snark had for breakfast, it had better be a very interesting breakfast, or out comes the rejection slip.
posted
I've heard it said, repeatedly, that nobody can get two editors to agree on how they like their coffee, let alone what they look for in stories.
I'll go on My first 13 rant in a moment.
First, I want to rant about something related. This is a place to improve our writing skills (Kind-of like a free English 101, only customized toward a goal: getting published.) We're supposed to be a community of Writers helping Writers, no matter what level we have achieved. If OSC, KDW, Christine, Jamie Ford, Spaceman, Sara Genge, and an abundance of other published writers didn't step in to help us, we would all just be at different levels of Wannabe. If you just get irritated at what you see, you may not be as skilled at helping someone learn as you think.
Instead of ranting on what I don't like -- or trying to claim what editors reject and why (though there were some valid points) -- I'm going to mention the elements that compose a good 13 lines. They're no different for short stories and novels.
PoV. I want someone's PoV to follow into the story.
Identification of genre. If I can't tell, I don't to read to find out.
Identify location. (With few exceptions)
Identify what the story is about. (You don't have to tell everything -- you can't -- but I want a decent sense of where I'm going.)
That's all...
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited September 15, 2007).]
posted
Or maybe just know the rules and know when to break them--and when not to.
Some good points, though, IB.
I'm not sure you can, or should, get a true sense of where a story is going from the first 13 though. But at the start of a story a writer does, I think, make a certain "promise" to the reader about what kind of story it is going to be and needs to fulfill that promise--which makes me realize where I went wrong on a certain short story. *light dawns*
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 15, 2007).]
posted
If many Hatrackers are making the same mistakes, I think it's a good idea to discuss them here in the Open Discussion.
quote:1) Stories are made up of sentences. If your first two or three pages have more than two sentence fragments or run-on sentences, the editor will stop reading and send it back. The same goes for bad grammar and spelling. Don't plan on becoming a writer first and then learning basic English. Go to your local college and take English 101. Then write.
Agreed!
You can learn some grammar here. I have learned a few things about grammar that I managed to miss in English class. However, the basics are more of a solitary study. It's been a long time since I was willing to critique a story by someone who had not mastered the most basic elements of writing. It's just not an area where I feel I can do the most good. My value isn't even as an experienced writer nearly so much as an experienced reader, telling other writers how I feel about their stories. I am not an English teacher and correcting grammar is a tedious, often thankless job.
quote: 3) Everything in a story has to be interesting. Telling a good story is partly about putting in interesting stuff, but almost as important is leaving out boring stuff. As soon as your story recounts what Jon Eric Snark had for breakfast, it had better be a very interesting breakfast, or out comes the rejection slip.
I'm not sure if this is how I would have phrased it, but I think I know where you're coming from here. The truth is, though, that there are slower and faster parts of stories. There is description, which can be boring to some. I think the real key here is pacing more than interesting/boring elements. You need to keep the pace of a story moving so that readers will get into a sort of flow. This is a hard one to master, and often requires practice and feedback to get right.
quote:# PoV. I want someone's PoV to follow into the story. # Identification of genre. If I can't tell, I don't to read to find out. # Identify location. (With few exceptions) # Identify what the story is about. (You don't have to tell everything -- you can't -- but I want a decent sense of where I'm going.
I don't need to know genre up front. I know that as a rule of thumb it's a good idea to try to make the genre plain up front, but I think this would be a huge, even insurmountable challenge for real-world fantasy where the characters don't know there's a paranormal element yet. And that's just one example.
I'm not sure about the location thing. It's probably helpful to have some idea of setting...maybe setting would even be a better word?
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited September 15, 2007).]
posted
Interestingly enough, on another board some very good writers have posted significantly less than the first 13 (first sentence or two) of their last five stories. Everyone commented on everyone else's first lines.
The result was a fascinating study of how people have different tastes. For mine specifically, I had some people tell me the first lines left them cold, and other people say the very same first lines really hooked them.
Just because one reader (or one editor) doesn't like the first 13 doesn't make it bad. Not one of the beginnings on that board could be called bad, they just didn't appeal. On the other hand, technical problems can cause a terminal case of form rejection.
Bottom line: you are the final authority on your story. You get to decide. If an editor doesn't like it, get a different editor. If several editors have the same problem with the prose, you might want to consider whether the prose might be your problem. Every reader, critiquer, editor, puts your story through the filter of how they would have done it. You don't have to agree, but it's always worthwhile to evaluate their opinions.
posted
there is a contest online for first lines of stories. This year, there were nearly 200 entries, I think. If anyone can help me out by recalling the site, that would be great. It's amazing, when you look at 100 or so first sentences, how some really pop out, and some can leave you scratching your head. I agree with the idea that everything in a story should count, although I also think there is a balance between action and information. All action, no thought, I get bored by that, too.
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posted
I'm inclined to agree with all three, though I'm largely absent from Fragments and Feedback. I try to avoid having the stuff I send to market look like the stuff I post here.
I'd tolerate a flashback---after all, "Casablanca" is one of my favorite movies---though probably not in something under five thousand words...
And I really don't know what motivates editors. I've read my stuff, and some of the stuff they've printed---and I just think they're wrong.
posted
I think it's a very difficult task, to start with action that is completely self explanatory, without having to waste any time with those pesky explanations. The background, the backstory, the characterization are really what makes action sing. And frequently, crits are so split: tell me more/tell me less, that it's easy to see that crit readers are confused too. Rick Norwood, I respect your judgment so much, you are such an excellent critical reader, that I rather take it on faith that what you say about flashbacks must have merit, but I don't SEE it, if you know what I mean. I've been puttering through Koscova's Historian, for example, and that is the biggest mishmash of flashbacks, backstory and information dumping, I have ever seen in my life - the whole thing is not only flashbacks, but flashbacks within flashbacks WITHIN flashbacks, and it's really cool. Although, I sometimes do get distracted by the punctuation needed to keep all the first person flashbacks within flashbacks straight.
My own belief is that if a story has heart -is alive and breathing to the reader, a lot of other stuff will fly. If it doesn't, it doesn't matter how many things the writer does right, it's still just an exercise.
posted
Robert, I'd really like to read one of your stories. I have exactly the same feeling about editors you do, sometimes they are just plain wrong. Well, of course they are. They're only human.
On the other hand, looking back at stories I wrote ten years ago, I can now see clearly why they were rejected. I think my current crop of stories is an improvement.
InarticulateBabbler, you take me to task for losing patience with some of the people here. I am very patient. I'm willing to help anyone I can help, if they will benefit from my help. That's why I posted my Three Killers -- to help the many rather than the few. That said, I can't teach English here. I can offer a few pointers, but if a person is careless or untutored about English and is trying to be a writer, they are wasting their time. The only thing that will fix that problem is hundreds of hours of intensive study. In fact, I'm not sure it is possible for someone who doesn't learn "proper" English as a child to learn it really well as an adult, which is why I constantly rant and rave about the American public schools, where many teachers are too slovenly, cowardly, or ignorant to insist on "correct" English. I put "correct" in quotes because, as Steven Pinker points out, everyone's language follows strict rules of grammar. They just may not be the "standard" rules. There have been entire books written with non-standard grammar. Clockwork Orange comes to mind. But, being realistic, if your rules of grammar are non-standard, you are not going to convince most editors to buy your stories. If you want to sell, you must change. That's hard.
posted
That's exactly why I have to roll my eyes any time I see somebody new come on a board like this and start to post like they R N txtmsg brds. *waves!* This is the future of literature.
posted
When I read an opening, the only thing I look for is if it generates interest. It can have all the character, setting, PoV, conflict and chocolate icing it wants, but what does it matter if it falls flat?
If it is flat, then I start looking at those other things to see why. They're all important, and they're big factors in generating interest, but I don't feel any one of them is critical so long as the opening grabs the reader.
When I post an opening, I want feedback that focuses on the reader's gut reactions. It usually helps if they share why they had that reaction, but not always.
It doesn't help me to say, "This is an adverb." I know it's an adverb, and if it appears in the first thirteen, I probably gave it the first degree before letting it in. Others might benefit from this kind of feedback; they might benefit from information on why the road to hell is paved with adverbs. So, I don't mind if someone points such things out, as long as they also give me a reaction.
The most important information I want, though, is if it grabbed your interest and why, or who not.
Editors are human. They have preferences and tastes like everyone else. One editor might reject any story about ice cream no matter what, another might accept any story about ice cream no matter how poorly written.
[This message has been edited by lehollis (edited September 16, 2007).]
posted
I'm with Iehollis here. The opening can work even if several ingredients are missing. However, I give reasons why I think something doesn't work, if I can identify them, and usually I can. Obviously, the author is free to ignore it if he/she wants, but I like to get this sort of information when I get stuff critiqued.
On a different note, bad grammar, unless it's terrible, doesn't bother me too much. I tend to overlook it, largely because when I critique I look for bigger picture items--pacing, characterization, etc. I figure grammar is the writer's job, unless they specifically ask for a grammar/ style check.
posted
On ignoring bad grammar: If the grammar is bad, and I mean consistently bad, because everybody makes some mistakes, then it is for one of two reasons. Either the writer can't write correct English, or else the writer could write correct English but doesn't. In either case, that writer is not going to benefit from any advice we give, because correct English is the minimum standard for publication.
If I seem to harp on this, it is because I have tried to help a number of people who honestly believed it was the editor's job to correct their grammar. If I can't convince them otherwise, I quickly give up on them.
posted
Bad grammar gets in the way of the story. Make one mistake and I'll forgive you (heck, anyone can make a mistake). Make the same mistake twice and I'll clue you in to the grammar rule you seem to have missed. Make multiple mistakes many times and it is a problem. I can't ignore it.
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posted
I think part of the problem is that some people get really excited about their story and post a first draft for comments here before really doing any revision/editing. This is a problem because all first drafts contain errors (usually including some major ones). I think at least most of us agree that we do expect some revision work to have been done by the writer before submitting it to us for crittiquing. I know that I really hate to see a lot of glaring errors when crittiquing. If it's worth my time to read and comment, it should be worth the writer's time to give it one or two passes to polish it a little. We've all gotten excited about a story we've written, but it should be tempered with understanding that no first draft is really ready for public consumption of any kind.
The other kind I've seen are the ones who have a misunderstanding of what we're here to do, as others have said before in this thread, and think we're here to weed out bad grammar. We're not. The worst of it should always be cleared up by the writer first. I think we all have better things to do with our time, and the writer will get more value from the crittique if we don't have to waste time nagging about basic grammar (assuming we are willing to continue crittiquing something in such shape).
Besides, if I wanted to nitpick grammar, I'd have become an english teacher or a copy editor.
posted
From my comments above, I'd like to note I put grammar and spelling on an entirely different level. While the library's shelves are full of writers who got by on less than perfect grammar--and I think that's because strong story compensates for a lot--I think it's a fundamental requirement.
I'm annoyed by the occasional statement in F&F to ignore spelling and grammar. Usually they say they have a friend that will help them with it later. To me, that's like saying, "How's my driving, don't mind the steering. A friend will help me with that part."
I feel grammar is the heart of a story, while story is the soul. Just my feeling, though.
posted
I'll be honest. I've skipped right by some fragments posts because I couldn't get past a writer's "style" that includes loooong sentences, missing commas, and other items that may not technically be incorrect grammar, but make the fragment very challenging to read.
I think what I am gleaning from this thread is that I'm not the only one. I suspect what can be done that would be most useful, though, is for me to actually post to those threads and mention a few specific examples, offer resource ideas if it's a specific deficiency apparent in the writing, and request the writer to rework it and repost.
I recently read the book BIRD BY BIRD by Anne Lamott. It's a book about writing, really interesting and plenty to learn for a newer writer like me. One thing that really stuck out for me was a scene she described where she was running a writer's workshop and a writer presented a particularly painful piece of prose in her session. Folks around the circle offered tentative critiques before one of the circle members just lit into the writer, explaining how large the pile of dung that he had written was.
Anne Lamott's response was really wonderful. She asked the group, "OK. So now what? Should he (the dung-writer) stop writing?"
It's a good question. And has a pretty obvious answer - of course not. He should keep writing, if that's what he is driven to do. He should try to improve his craft at every opportunity. If he lacks good grammar fundamentals, he should look for ways to fix that. If he doesn't know how bad his grammar is, someone should (with kindness) point it out and offer suggestions for resources.
posted
Well, I don't know the extent that grammar makes a good writer. Certainly the story needs to be understandable, and bad grammar gets in the way. On the otherhand, I do not think grammar is the heart of a story--maybe the legs that gets it to where it needs to go.
I remember giving several very long lectures on this forum about verb tenses. You need to be able to at least use the right verb tense, although knowing the name of it is optional in my opinion--helpful if someone tells you that you use passive too much and what you are using is past perfect and not passive, but still optional.
But, personally, I have a problem with commas. I always have. And it doesn't matter how many times I read the rule about using a pair of commas in the middle of a sentence to set off clauses, phrases, and words that are not essential to the meaning of the sentence, I still don't about 75% of the time. *sighs*
Does that make me a bad writer? I honestly don't know and I am honestly not going to worry about it too much. I try to catch them and the ones I don't, well if it puts an editor off, I guess I'll just have to live with it.
posted
JeanneT, I think I was talking about glaringly bad grammar. I don't think little things like you mention hurt so badly. They stand out to me, but that's just me.
And yes, legs might be a better analogy than heart. To me, it's the heart, though Of course, my writing background is technical writing, and I treated grammar like it was a religion back then.
posted
On one item that came up in the above...I saw a media report somewhere recently that some major publisher was bringing out a novel written entirely in Text Messaging. Sorry I don't remember the details. (I don't Text Message---I don't even like talking on the phone. Besides, I'm a creature of old habits.)
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posted
Of course good grammar doesn't make a good story. But bad grammar makes an unsalable story -- I'm not talking about the occasional punctuation error, I'm talking about arbitrary changes in tense, sentence fragments, run-on sentences, and especially "I gone to the store." I do not know any editor who will read further, and I feel insulted when I'm asked to critique a story in which the writer could not be bothered to write carefully. It says to me, "My time is valuable, yours isn't."
As an example of just how important this is to a large number of people, consider that "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" became a best seller.
[This message has been edited by Rick Norwood (edited September 18, 2007).]
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