Once you have the story, you can decide how to fit it in. If it's shorter than a novel, it's a short novel, maybe even a novella. If it's longer than a novel, you can try to break it up.

The last thing you want to do is try to pad your novel to meet a minimum length, or try to cut out necessary stuff to make it shorter.

As to a second draft being -10% of the first, I have found the opposite, the first 70 pages of my first draft has turned into about 100 pages in my second draft because I got caught up with certain characters and forgot to explain how other characters got from what they were doing between one meeting and the next.

I agree with writing your story the length it is. It would be like hitting a golf ball away from the hole because it means you have a favorable wind,

quote:

---

As to a second draft being -10% of the first, I have found the opposite, the first 70 pages of my first draft has turned into about 100 pages in my second draft because I got caught up with certain characters and forgot to explain how other characters got from what they were doing between one meeting and the next.

---

I thought I should clarify a bit in that.

Btw, I got that from Steven King's On Writing, and he got it from someone else when he was starting out. It's been repeated by a few other published authors.

However, it depends on what you're adding. If you find you need more scenes to support the story, then you'll find it inflating.

The idea is to set a goal to trim 10% of your prose, making it tight, efficient and powerful. I find if I set that goal, it really helps my manuscripts.

There are several methods to find length, and someone will have a link soon. The basic idea is determine the average words per line (take six or so full sentences and average them out), then multiply by the number of lines per page. Once you know an average number of words per page, multiply by the number of pages in the manuscript.

This tells the publisher how much space the book will require.

One consequence might be that the reader expects the second book also to have a fake -- unsatisfactory -- ending.

quote:

---

What lehollis said. You can always work with the editor and whittle it down---after it's accepted.

---

Not if the publisher says they don't look at that length you can't. They won't even consider it.

There are very few publishers who consider manuscripts of that length.

I'm sorry, but I don't think telling someone to ignore editorial guidelines is particularly good advise. If you want to sell the book, the chances are you are going to have to either cut it or divide it.

Edit: I am not expert enough to say there is no chance of getting a book of that length accepted somewhere, but the chances would seem to be pretty darn slim.

For example Tor will not consider anything over 130,000 words. Ace considers 75k to 125k. Del Ray says they'll consider to 120k (but they don't accept unagented Mss.) Baen says they consider 100-130k. And thinking that they'll change that, no matter how good is, is just fooling ourselves.

Second Edit: AND what Mr. Card said in that lesson is, in my opinion, being somewhat misrepresented. He said to find some climaxes (and surely your novel has those) and use those as a closing place, not to make what should be a series of books into a single book.

quote:

---

most series authors find that they - and their readers - are more satisfied if some major plot threads are resolved near the end of each volume. In a series, there will of course be main plot threads that are not resolved -- that may, in fact, be in something of a cliffhanger situation. But readers will be unsatisfied if there is no closure, and flat out angry if there is only a cliffhanger and no resolution of any kind.

So in determining the length of individual volumes in a fantasy series, you must keep in mind the shape of the series as a whole, and where the major climactic closure points will come. You won't necessarily write one volume per major climax -- in books as thick as fantasy novels tend to be these days, you'll probably have quite a few good solid resolutions-of-tension. But you choose one of these, an important one, to be the major climax of the volume, and shape the structure accordingly.

---

So the thing to do would not be to fake a climax but to find where there is already a climax and use that as an ending point.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 22, 2007).]

quote:

---

I'm sorry, but I don't think telling someone to ignore editorial guidelines is particularly good advise. If you want to sell the book, the chances are you are going to have to either cut it or divide it.

---

I don't think anyone has said that here, or would say that.

The advice to just tell the story and not worry about length--advice that comes from more than one good published author--doesn't mean to send it off to whatever editor you want.

I know some markets have very specific guidelines. White Wolf publishing will not take material over 296 pages, it will take works slightly smaller but none even a page over. They generally have advertising and what not presold and going to 297 pages moves into the next cost in printing bracket.

quote:

---

Not if the publisher says they don't look at that length you can't. They won't even consider it.

---

Then it's your call as to whether to submit to them or not. Length is also an aesthetic choice. If you---and you alone---think it's ideal at whatever length it comes out at, submit at that length.

If they're willing to, say, pay you to cut it down, then go ahead.

(Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land came in at 220,000 words. The editors wanted him to cut it down to 150,000 words. He got it down to 160,087 words, and they accepted it at that length. But they accepted it, and, I presume, paid for it, first.)

[edited to correct a spelling error.]

A work that is not within their guidelines in the slush pile won't even get a reading.

Do not send publishers works that aren't within their guidelines.

If you have an agent to pitch a "too long" work or a "name" so that they'll consider it, well and good.

But most agents won't consider a work that long and if you send it to a publisher and it isn't within their guidelines--

do you really think they read it?

Fat chance!

Edit: I can just see the slush monkey sitting there saying to herself, "This author ignored our guidelines and sent us something we specifically said we didn't want, but I think I'll take my time to read their 200,000 words anyway, ignoring the 100 other mss. I have sitting there that DID follow our guidelines." Yeah, sure.

I'm sorry, but telling ANYONE to ignore publisher guidelines is the worst advice I've ever heard. If someone wants to go with a book that length, then they have to live with the limitations in marketing it. If they have a good agent and it's a good book, then they can be sold. But the market is limited, to put it mildly.

Nuff said from me, since this is turning into an argument. Obviously, I've stated my opinion on submitting such a work. The decision on whether to take a chance on finding an agent or publisher is up to the writer. But don't expect a friendly reception if you choose to ignore guidelines.

As far as the "fake" ending goes--authors do this quite often, with success, and most readers do not even notice. It does not mean neatly wrap up your main plot and everything in the entire story, only to blow it up in the beginning of the next. The key here is subtlety. One way to do it: Wrap up a subplot at the end of book one, and make the readers feel warm and cozy, while the main problem is still hovering in the background. Let the readers feel hopeful that because the subplot was resolved, then the characters stand a good chance at taking care of the main problem as well. Then at the beginning of book two, start where you left off, with things momentarily resolved, and then the main plot line rises its ugly head. With this method, you cheat the reader out of nothing. You've not fooled them at all, nor given them any reason to be angry with you.

One concern: if this is a story following the three-act structure, it might be rather difficult for you to find a stopping point half way. But if it is a five act structure, it might work better, and maybe you could look at your plot structure and see if it will fit as such.

Another concern is this: I'm not sure I've ever seen more than a handful of two book series; most are trilogies or more. Perhaps your best bet would be to read your story over, and weigh every last word (well, that could be quite a task, with 180k of them!). How many drafts have you done? Try to do some archeology on it and find the core of the story, and cut any words that don't push your story toward this end. Rewrite sentences to be tighter, more focused. Rather than more adverbs and adjectives, use more specific verbs and nouns. I think you could probably cut it down to 150k this way.

Good luck!
--Melanie

quote:

---

I think it might be more helpful to think of it as the odds of getting published. If you fit the publisher's guidelines, you've probably got better odds. However, there might be that publisher or agent that's willing to overlook the word count and take a risk because they like your story. You might have to be more persistent, and put out many more queries. But I would never say it was impossible.

---

I have to say if I were going to try to shop a novel like that I would not try with publishers, though. Ignoring publisher guidelines is seriously a losing proposition. All you'll do is waste your time and money mailing it to people who won't even read it. Publishers mean their guidelines and do not look kindly on people who ignore them.

I would instead try really hard for an agent. An agent has a much better chance of getting publishers to go with a longer novel. That's what Goodkind did, for instance. And his novels never are within guidelines. Getting them published is possible it is just one heck of a lot harder.

It is also frequently easier to divide books up into several than people think. I can think of a number of triologies that actually started a single book.

quote:

---

As for the notion that I am Heinlein...well, if they'll violate their own rules for somebody who's a pre-established writer, but not for an unknown---then the playing field isn't level

---

Life is tough, but that's the way it is. The fact that Stranger was Heinlein's longest book at the time is irrelevent. He was still Heinlein. Look, I'm not trying to be mean. But for a writer to send a publisher work that doesn't fit their guidelines is just a waste. I think even getting an agent with a longer work is harder, but at least that is a lot more likely.

quote:

---

I don't mean to be argumentative, but if your manuscript is good and a publisher sees profit in it, I don't think length is an issue. Case in point, Patrick Rothfuss' book, published in March, is a startling 660 pages, give or take a few. New author, thick book. Reviews are great, by the way. The key is: great book.

---

An agent can get them to ignore their guidelines. An author can't. I suggest you check who Rothfuss' agent is. And, yes, occasionally a first time author can get an agent. Again, it's hard but it happens.

Tor guidelines doesn't give length max http://www.tor-forge.com/Faq.aspx?#ctl00_cphContent_ctl30_lblQuestion

Ace/Roc states usual length between 75,000 and 125,000, but no max http://us.penguingroup.com/static/html/scifi-fantasy/submission.html

Daw invites manuscripts of all lengths but ALMOST never publishes works under 80,000 words.
http://us.penguingroup.com/static/html/daw/submissions.html

My point is, the goal is to write a great book. If too many words get in the way of greatness, cut it. If those words are all needed to tell the story - don't cut. My understanding is that, yes, in the weeding process, they look for reasons not to read the book. Don't give them the evidence. Write a great query, put together an outstanding packet. Publishers' bottom line is that they want a book that will make them money, whether it is short or long.

[This message has been edited by palmon (edited September 24, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by palmon (edited September 24, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by palmon (edited September 24, 2007).]

And yes, you are missing something. When a publisher gives a guideline, they MEAN the guideline. They're not saying it for the fun of it.

There is NO point in making submissions that ignore guidelines, I don't care how freaking good the book is. They won't read it. How hard is that to understand. Sure, go through the guidelines of publishers. If you can find some that that fits in their guidelines, go for it. But there are a large number who give a maximum.

Publishing long books costs a lot of money. Very few first time authors make money even on regular length books. Bottom line - if they spend a fortune on a long book for a first time author most of the time they lose money.

Publisher know this. If you seriousy think this doesn't apply to you, that's fine.

But if you ignore stated guidelines, you're acting like an amateur and guaranteeing that you won't get a sell.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 24, 2007).]

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/004092.html

I didn't even get a nibble from publishers when I was sending out my 250,000 word manuscripts (one must have almost fainted when I wrote by accident - which is probably another reason I did not get a nibble, I'm stupid sometimes - the manuscript was 2500,000 words)and then I came here, and was told with no uncertain terms that my novels were way too long.

I ran and hid for a few days then decided it was time to go back to the drawing board. I began to rewrite. I cut the first novel in half - it was still the same story but without a lot of charaters I realised I didn't need, and I was left with enough material for a whole new novel.

Next I began work on my YA novel, the one I'm seeking representation for right now. Again, its a third shorter, but the story hasn't changed, in fact, is much tighter.

I'm now working on my third rewrite, already cut the first one hundred pages almost in half (its 250,000k right now, so I'm on target for a 125,000 novel). I do beleive its not only improved my writing (just being here has done that) but also has given me a greater chance of getting published.

Just thought I'd share the experiences of someone who's been there.

"Here are some approximates based on page count:
40,000 = 160 pages
62,500 = 250 pages*
75,000 = 300 pages*
90,000 = 360 pages
100,000 = 400 pages
125,000 = 500 pages**" found at http://ldspublisher.blogspot.com/

Write the story. Edit the story. Get a couple of readers to tear the weak spots open in your story. Fix your story. When it's polished to your bittersweet satisfaction, do a correct word count:

SFWA link here

When you have concrete numbers, let them decide the method. If it's within the publisher's guidelines, try the publisher; if it's over, and you're unwilling to make any "artistic" compromises, find an agent. From what I've seen, the right agent will do wonders for your manuscript; direct to publisher can easily fail even IF you are within their guidelines. Why take any unnecessary chances?

General rule of thumb - for non-sci fi/ fantasy you are looking at a word count of 75-90K
for sci fi fantasy - generally between 80 -120K.

Why the difference? Editors, agents and the houses all realize that for the last catagory you need the space to build the world.

Having just come from a conference and spending the weekend with an agent talking about the industry and such, if the word count is very high it gives her a first reason to say "NO." If you have impressive credentials - a number of shorts published - you might get a request for pages but for an unpublished author that word count will make it much harder for you.

Expect that your edit, if done right, will take at least 20-30%% off the top. Now you are closer to the guidelines. Editing the darned thing is going to take you almost as long as it did to write it.

Finish the story arc. If all the issues aren't "done" that's fine but finish the "through line" - the issue/question you pose at the beginning and that drives the plot.

For my novel, the through line is whether the MC resumes her royal obligations. The story ends when she agrees to accept those responsibilities and take action even though many other issues are unresolved.

Figure out what your "through line" is and make sure it is actually resolved otherwise regardless of how wonderful a story it is if it doesn't "pay off" it will be hard to sell.