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Author Topic: "What if Dragons Were Real"
AstroStewart
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I found a very cool documentary from Animal Planet on youtube that is basically a scientific (somewhat) hypothetical: what if dragons existed, what would they be like. How could they fly? How could they breathe fire?

The documentary speculates that dragons (if they really existed) could have contained large "flight-sacs" in addition to lungs, that stored hydrogen gas that may be produced by bacteria during digestion. This would give them lift (like a hot air balloon) making it easier to fly, given how big they are supposed to be, relative to their wingspan. It could also help explain how they breathe fire. If they had some kind of catalyst (like powdered platinum), then ejecting hydrogen gas + finely powdered platinum into room-temperature air would result in a reaction: ie. fire.

For any fantasy writers who like dragons, it's a very interesting speculative program. You can find it by searching "Dragons, a Fantasy Made Real" on youtube.


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rstegman
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I saw that many years ago.

My thought was that the pteradactyls survived the dinosaur age. They descended into the dragons of the past, at least a physical form for them. Pteradactyles were large so the dragons could grow large too.

The flame would be a bit more difficult. I tend more to fine, volitile oils as the fuel for the flame. Starting it would be a matter of question. I am not sure there would be enzymes that would ignite the oil. They might gather flint like rocks in a pouch near the mouth and rattle them, possibly started as a mating thing, but that would spark the oils. Of course, how to protect themselves from their own heat would be a problem.
The hydrogen would be a problem due to permiability. I would think that it would escape the body all over.


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philocinemas
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I also saw this many years ago. The permeability problem with the hydogen gas could easily be solved by having this "flight sac" be an evolved bladder that holds in gasses.

Regarding the evolution, I believe that a small raptor, like microraptor (or a cousin), which is thought to have possibly climbed trees and to have had webbed armpits, like a flying squirrel, would be a better ancestor. This would better explain the tail and elongated neck in most dragons.

Another possibility could be an descendant of the plesiosaur, which could explain the "hydrogen sac".

[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited October 05, 2009).]


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extrinsic
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Dragon depictions vary across cultures. Oriental dragons are more snake-like than Western dragons' flying lizard-like depictions. Their symbolism varies too, i.e., East, wisdom; West, sin by way of descent from the Biblical serpent.

In Native American myths, dragon-like creatures are associated with natural elements. The great horned serpent of Algonquian cultures, named mishi-Ginebig by Ojibwe peoples, is a representation of lightning. Invisible except when the brilliant gemstone above its eyes flashes with a light that blinds, Ginebig's depicted as a sky-tall, tail-walking giant serpent, walking on a bent forked tail. Forked horns reach to the heavens. Ginebig speaks from a forked tongue with the sound of thunder.

No wonder in early contact tableaus the True People thought the Strangers, with pale complexions like ancestor spirits, that came from under the world were god-like. They held lances that flashed brilliant light and spoke with Ginegbig's forked tongue and bit like the fatal touch of Ginebig. I suspect that the Western meaning of speaking with a forked tongue has a meaning different from the generally accepted one in some cultures. Rather than lies, the coercion of superior force.

I was discomfitted by Animal Planet's "What if Dragons Were Real" when I first saw it. Abstractions made concrete seemed a sacrilege of a rich history of human creative imagination corrupted by science for mass entertainment purposes. I sought a message or appeal underlying the premise to ease my anxiety. The eternal inner child longing to make sense of the unknown, and by making sense of it, own it. It's a present-day world of no absolute certainties, and the obsolescence of authority. Question everything. Challenge everything. Test everything. My inner child is saddened that fantasy must be made real.
----
Hypergolic compounds ignite on contact. Like hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide, liquids. They're toxic to life though, carcinogenic in low-dose exposures.

Triethylborane is a pyrophoric compound that ignites on contact with air, like white phosphorous, except it's a liquid.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited October 05, 2009).]


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Corky
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Would the Central American "feathered serpent" qualify as a dragon? (Come to think of it, maybe it was a hold-over archaeopteryx?)
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extrinsic
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Most if not all dragon myths derive from serpents. Hindu dragons are sometimes depicted with cobra-like hoods. Many of the evolutions of dragon myths from serpentine origins are associated with fossil finds. The worm Ouroboros, a celestial dragon, is associated with the smoky trails of dust clouds in the Milky Way.
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snapper
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Dragons is fantasy's FTL drive, an impossibilty that is too important to dismiss.

Dragons (as they are portrayed in legend and in fiction) can't exist! They are too heavy and too large to fly. Dismiss the laws of gravity and the square/cube laws and you still have the problem of feeding such a high energy monster. A flying brontosaurus would need a pasture full of cattle a day.
This doesn't included the problem of producing fire. Doing even if you could dream up a way that was possible you would need to double their calorie intake to fuel that fire.
A thousand of the monsters would strip a continent of every animal larger than a small dog in a generation.


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rstegman
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In my Waxy Dragon stories, there is some magic involved in her flight. there are some worlds she goes to where flight is not really possible with her small wings. That fact came out of the need for it in a story but solves a lot of problems.

With the dragon world we have created, the heat the dragons use is magically caused, but the flame, fire jells or other types of "flames" comes from the dragon itself. The way I am writing our stories, the dragons need heat to harden their shells to hatch. They absorb heat from the environment and then heat the shell. Parents build a fire around the egg to help, getting it hot enough. One dragon in our stories never gave up the heat absorbing characteristics and has become a frost dragon, taking the heat from the environment and even out of the "flame" and sending out a blast of frost. It fits the logic of the world we have created.


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