posted
...Certain phrases that your characters often use?
For instance, I have a character that says things like:
"Of course, it wasn't that he really cared."
or
"But let's be honest..."
If these are 'tag phrases' or tag thoughts of a character, is it okay to use them fairly frequently?
Now, I'm not talking every page, but definitely often.
What are your thoughts?
Furthermore, what are your thoughts on often-fought-over area of vulgarity? I mean, if a character swears a lot, it'd be stupid to have him say "Frick" or anything of the sort, because it just wouldn't fit his character. But of course, some people stand adamant that "swearing is cheating".
I understand that less swear words means that they have more emphasis. But what if the character doesn't use them for emphasis? What if he's just downright vulgar, and uses them as casual as any other word in the dictionary?
posted
I think the key here is how often you repeat phrases or vuglarities that come out of your characters mouth. Too much is too much. But if its appropriate to your audience and your character don't shy away from it like its the plague.
The main point of people who tell you don't do these things is to get you to avoid using them as a crutch in lieu of real character development which incorporates a lot of elements of good story telling -including speaking mannerisms. People aren't totally defined by how they speak, they're defined by their actions, physical characteristics etc...etc...
posted
I like to look at it as a challenge. Rather than worry about using a catch phrase too much, I wonder how I can use the catch phrase to show more detail about my character. You brought up the "of course." After you've established that he uses it, could you find a way to have him use it ironically? Or sarcastically? That way, instead of being repetitious, you add depth.
As for the swearing, I look at that as a challenge as well. I don't like reading stories with profanity, so I don't want to write them. I try to use instances where I would use profanity to dig deeper into the dialogue and make it more revealing. Of course, some people really talk like that, and I don't have much skill in dialogue, so I am not always successful. But I'm working on it.
In the case of my novel WIP, trying to avoid a character using a catch phrase too much actually led me to use it instead as a major plot device which deepened the interaction between two of my main characters. I was very pleased with myself.
posted
I don't like reading stories with a lot of profanity. It grates on me.
"I mean, if a character swears a lot, it'd be stupid to have him say "Frick" or anything of the sort, because it just wouldn't fit his character."
I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with someone who swears all the time in real life so why would I do that while reading? I read a little bit of a story where the main character said the 'F' word at least once a sentence. He was a convict just released from jail so I gave it a few pages to see if his language cleaned up as he entered society. It didn't and I never finished the book, though there were other reasons I put the book down as well.
quote:I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with someone who swears all the time in real life so why would I do that while reading?
I don't really understand this logic, though. I mean, isn't the point of reading to see inside of people you might not otherwise understand? Well, on top of being entertained of course.
I can understand every sentence being too much, but I don't really get why fairly frequent use would be frowned upon from a writing standpoint.
Lyra -- I totally get what you mean there. I would never rely on vulgarity to establish the character as a whole. But it seems rather silly to have the character not swear, when doing so is something he does naturally. It'd be like having a devoutly religious man that didn't pray. It just doesn't make sense -- And censoring for the sake of censoring seems more fake than a character that drops the F bomb occasionally.
Teraen -- That's a very good idea. I'll have to mess around with that. Thank you!
Thank you all for your responses. Please note that everything I say I mean in a civil tongue. I'm not trying to spark a flame war here by any means!
Edit for late night stupidity... Twice.
[This message has been edited by Gan (edited December 10, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by Gan (edited December 10, 2009).]
posted
I don't know about okay. At some point, in order to succeed, writers who think for themselves break away from the pack. There's no absolute rules, per se, in creative writing.
Catch phrases are a stock quality in some genres and common place in certain fantastical milieus. Like jokes and ironical voices and about any other aspect of creative writing, timeliness and context are what makes a catch phrase meaningful. I'm reminded of Betty Slocum's catch phrase in the BBC situation comedy Are You Being Served "And I am unanimous in that." Its off kilter sense is what makes it funny, even though it's repeated frequently, but not more than once per episode.
There are rhetorical terms for repetition though, "battologia, vain repetition," "homiologia, tedious and inane repetition," generally considered vices. As there's also rhetorical terms for the vice of foul language, one species: "cacemphaton, an expression that is either foul of ill sounding." Silva Rhetoricae. When foul language is a rhetorical vice or a virtue is a matter of discretionary judgment that might not agree between a writer and her readers.
Foul language is tricky. It can readily put readers' noses out of joint. My general sense of when it's inappropriate is when it's used gratuitously. Like when a newly come of age writer fascinated with using foul language inflicts it on everyone who no longer will chastise him for it. The F-bomb once in every four words in some stories I've read in workshops and at least one other of a variety of foul words once in four. There's not much meaning in half of the words of a story in homiological cacemphaton. What a waste of real estate.
Foul words in a screenplay earn audience restrictions. Just once of a foul word's occurrence in a screenplay raises its rating from PG to PG-13. More than once, higher. Smoking and adult situations as well as brief depictions of gratuitous violence or sex situations will raise a PG rating too.
There's no formal rating system for literature, per se, like there is for motion pictures. But language, gratuitous sex or violence, drug use, single parent families, and a long list of "edgy" seeming situations will earn library association restrictions, and are restricted in some publications and contests, like Writers of the Future's implicit PG-13 rating.
When foul language works for me, in reading anyway, is when it's judicious in quantity and quality and has qualities beyond the mere shock value of the words. Like when used to show a character as uncouth, depicting a loathesome character in an adversarial role by demonizing him with Strong Language, demonstrating the personal failings of an empathetic character, or when used as an unexpected epithet by a character, focal or auxilliary, to express a strong emotional reaction.
The short story we've been discussing in the second week of Short Story Discussions, Hatrack Groups, Kij Johnson's "26 Monkeys, Also the Abyss" has one foul word in an appropriate situation, BS. It's timely used and appropriate for the context and situation, in my estimation, and falls late in the story's timeline.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited December 10, 2009).]
"I mean, isn't the point of reading to see inside of people you might not otherwise understand?"
True, I wouldn't hang out with a serial killer, but I would read about him. Swearing is different, we're authors and words are our craft. Swear words are powerful words used to create strong negative reactions. Some people are fine with swear words in a story and some hate them. Why alienate part of your audience unless it's for a real good reason?
I don't think having your characters swear is off limits but I think it should only be used if there isn't a better way. I'd say use swearing with caution, avoid it altogether if possible, and don't overuse it.
posted
I have to disagree with satate on this one. I think if you have a character, like a sailor, who doesn't swear like a sailor I would be disappointed. It would feel unrealistic, too sanitized.
But this could be a demographic thing. I loved American Gods.
I do agree with extrinsic though - if your story is for a YA audience you should be sure to keep it PG.
posted
My thoughts on vulgar language would be to use them in moments of surprise like "D**n that hurt." "S**t, I didn't see that." for example. I see nothing wrong in using them occasionally in this context.
I also see nothing wrong in using catch phrases with certain characters to reveal mannerisms. I've used this technique with children in my books. Phrases like "Are ya gonna eat that?" or "I gotta go to the house." I've run into people off-&-on throughout my life that have a favorite catch phrase or two they use at least in any given conversation, and sometimes they don't even realize it. It's part of human nature, and I'd think it would add more realism to some characters in writing stories... but not to the point of being distracting for the reader.
posted
"swear like a sailor " works in Tom Clancy's books about Jack Ryan, because his stories are so compelling. There are times I find it too much, but he uses it at the right moments.
Even people who swear a lot will often modify their speech in varied situations. I work around a bunch of former sailors who clean up their speech around me, sometimes catching themselves short or letting something slip and then apologizing. Its funny because it really doesn't bother me, but I'm female and don't swear, so they make the effort. And not all sailors "swear like a sailor". The worst two offenders here never served a day in their lives.
As for repeated catch phrases, perhaps that's something your beta readers will notice. It's hard to judge how much is too much without reading it. There's a phrase in the book I'm reading now (The Bourne Identity) that is quite irritating because its used so often. If I could give Ludlum feedback, that would be high on the list.
[This message has been edited by MrsBrown (edited December 10, 2009).]
posted
I quit reading Tom Clancy books (his co-written books didn't seem to be as bad) because of the incessant swearing. It's always different strokes for different folks. There are those who don't mind the repeating or incessant swearing and those who do mind and won't pick up another book by the author.
It's a judgment call, but repeating has to be done with moderation or it will pull the reader out of the story, and I think that's the key. You want to keep the reader immersed.
catchphrases for certain characters is like giving them certain mannerisms. If this is how they sound, then that's what should be in their dialogue. The big and tricky line to walk with this, though, is to make sure you're not trying to make it sound *too* much like natural speech, because natural speech written down is pretty annoying to read. Rambles, interruptions, lots of pauses with nonsense syllables to save one's place in the speaking queue, etc.
I'm reading a book called WRITING THE BREAKOUT NOVEL by Donald Maass, and there's a great bit in there about the emotional tone set by certain characters, and how sometimes a character is annoying in speech or mannerism, but if that serves the story's purpose, then it's okay to annoy the readers. At least a bit.
I'm reminded of the emotional tone set in the fifth Harry Potter book, when Harry's entering puberty (not that the author says that, but it's the right timing for his age) and life is upside-down and he feels angry and left out and frustrated. This is mostly accomplished through his dialogue and the deep penetration 3rd person POV details the author shares with us. The whole book feels like that, to the point where i notice when reading that book (i've read it many times) that I'm on edge, a little more snappish, etc. Think about that - how effective is that writer to have engaged me on such an emotional level that I'm feeling and thinking that way just from reading a book? This ties in with another post up right now (Cry Baby) talking about eliciting an emotional reaction from yourself while writing.
Another book we've read recently by Lloyd Alexander has a character with a specific thing she does in her dialog. I'm blanking on the specific name of the book, but it's the first book in a series called The Book of Three. The word Prydain is in the title but I don't recall it exactly. At any rate, the main character, a 12ish year old boy, meets up with a girl of similar age. The girl has this technique of using really outlandish but funny and appropriate metaphors throughout her dialog. It really distinguishes her. For instance, there's once when she was reacting to something horrible by saying (paraphrased), "That's the worst thing I think I've ever heard. It's like standing on your head to make yourself grow taller!" She also continually remarks about how the boy main character doesn't seem to know much for his station (assistant pig keeper) and otherwise makes jokes about his job but in a completely straight-faced kind of way. It's an excellent way to anchor that character. When she speaks, you know it's her, there's hardly any need for dialog tags.
At any rate, I think giving conversational tics to a character is fine, but you should be cautious to stick to something not too annoying (unless annoyance is your intent) and don't try to mimic natural speech too much.
As for swearing, in sci-fi, some groups have found success in just making up a swear word (e.g., frak in Battlestar Gallactica.) It can be problematic if over done, but I personally like the way they use it because it seems so real (certain characters use it more than others, some never say it, etc.) Others make up slang uses for words that we all already know - like Shiny in Firefly/Serenity (as a positive exclamation. "We're going to go to some random off world outpost." "Oooh! Shiny! I wonder if they have new dresses there.")
Otherwise you can always stick with the old standby "He cursed under his breath." Or "He shouted out a curse." or that sort of thing. That would give us the flavor without having to put people through swearwords if they're not into that. Maybe some combination of both is appropriate?
posted
I think Lyrajean and Teraen were making the same overall point: Use vulgarity and catch phrases to develop character, when action and original phrases aren't enough. Otherwise, they're excessive.
quote:Profanity, at its core, is best used as violence without action.
Readers react to profanity and violence much the same way. You'll offend readers if you can't prove that enduring the vulgarity will help them appreciate the story.
posted
Reading transcripts of spoken word is a good way to learn to recognize overburdensome natural speech and why it's annoying in literature. Like in drawing, the way that a few lines stand for all the textural detail of a building, say, like in shadows where crosshatching does double duty depicting detail and shading, but none in highlights, a few words or an occasional catch phrase carry a lot of freight.
A paraphrased passage of a verbatim recordation;
[Q] Okay. Now, uh, you know, like, before the break, you'd said "The tire came out of nowhere," you didn't actually see it come out from underneath the truck in front of you?
[A] Huh-uh. See, like, the driver of the truck, I got that from him. It all happened so fast.
[Q] Okay. So then you didn't actually observe the tire before it struck your car, right? Is that correct?
[A] Uh-huh.
[Q] You have to say yes or no. Discourse markers don't have any meaning in written form. Me and the other attorneys will argue 'til the cows come home over whether an umh-huh or huh-hum means yes or no.
[A] Okay.
[Q] Okay--wait. Let me clear that up for the record. Yes, you didn't see the tire before it struck your car?
[A] Right.
[Q] Is that a yes?
[A] Yes.
[Q] You didn't see the tire before it struck your car?
[A] Okay, all ready. Yes, like, I didn't actually see the tire before it struck my car. All right?
[Q] Okay. Well, we beat that dead horse didn't we. Moving on.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited December 10, 2009).]
posted
How do people feel about British cusswords? I watch a lot of British tv shows and have found that they are slipping in to my writing more and more (also my real life vocabulary). How do other people read those?
For me, I don't have the same visceral response as I would to standard American curses, but they also don't feel like replacement words- like when people say fudge.
posted
Another culture's cussing might not be as objectionable in the U.S. as it is in a homeland, and vice versa. I know of several British terms that seem sensible in the U.S. yet put British sensibilities out of joint. True of other English speaking cultures as well, Canadian, Kiwi, Aussie colloquialisms that have unique usage that differs from U.S. usage. For that matter, some terms in one region of the U.S. have objectionable usage in another region. One term for example, hereabouts a dingbat is a term for a tourist, somewhat endearingly intended anymore, yet call someone on a New York street a dingbat and them's fighting words. Dit dot is a really objectionable term hereabouts. It's meaning relates to pimples and boils.
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posted
I assume you aren't referring to the sort of swear words I hear on a daily basis in the United Kingdom, which are very much X-rated...
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posted
Absolutely. Some seemingly common terms, and I won't name them, have connotations that one or another culture finds objectionable and another doesn't. A term for cigarettes, for example, in Britain means an altogether different thing in the U.S. that's highly objectionable and considered hate speech. Other terms seem entirely innocent in the U.S. but have strongly objectionable connotations in Britain.
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posted
On dialogue - remember that dialogue for reading won't always reflect "real" dialogue - most spoken dialogue in real life is actually pretty incoherent (as any transcript of a conversation will demonstrate). Lots of fragments, hesitation, interruption, repetition, trailing off...
People do have verbal tics and mannerisms but as with all characterisation the trick is not to overdo it - what Damon Knight (I think) called "funny hat" characterisation. By which he meant that, if every time a supporting character came on, they demonstrated their particular individual character tic just to differentiate them from anyone else, it was about equivalent to someone wearing a funny hat all the time, so that the only thing you notice or remember is the funny hat.
posted
I would suggest that unless it's something rather unique (anyone remember "M-O-O-N" from The Stand?) to be careful about drawing too much attention to it. If it's a relatively common phrase or mannerism, it probably falls into the category of real world dialogue aspects that are best minimized in fictional dialogue.
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posted
In BLOOD WILL TELL, I have one character who says "Trust me" just often enough to make another character wonder if he's really trustworthy. Why does he have to keep repeatig it?
Btw, that character is lying about his identity. But he is trustworthy on the subject that he says "Trust me" about.
posted
I have a friend who always says "I won't lie . . . " It drives me nuts. You'd have to walk a fine line between writing an annoying character and writing annoying dialog. I agree that you don't need to transcribe every word that a person would say. As to swear words, if you have a character who swears like a sailor (and I've known a few sailors who didn't, even when they were on-boat) you don't necessarily have write those words over and over. (Reading those words over and over wears on me, if reading isn't a pleasant experience for me why should I keep reading?) You can write things like, Ronald added another string of expletives. (I did read one YA book that was in first person, where the character added # where the offensive word was, he told us to imagine the worst word we can think of. It worked there but I don't think it would work elsewhere.)
But, hey, write your story the way you feel it needs to be written. Let those stooges in marketing worry about who to sell it to.
posted
Thank you all for your responses! I'd go through one by one and say what I feel, but it would take too long! Gotta love this community, I've missed you folks.
I've decided to take a somewhat middle of the line approach in regards to both repetition and vulgarity. I'll be cutting out some of the 'catch phrases' in my second draft, and likely some of the vulgarity. My goal isn't to make the novel readable by children -- No, it would more than likely be an R rated movie -- But I don't want to go too over-the-top with it either.
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