I even have a friend who writes what she calls erotica. She's very adamant that what she writes is "erotica" and not "pornography". She'd be deeply offended if I suggested that what she writes is pornographic, but I must confess the distinction between "erotica" and "pornography" is entirely beyond me. What is more curious is that she evidently considers other authors pornographic who would be quite as adamant as she that their writing is not pornographic.

I don't have a dog in that particular fight. What I care about is good writing. I suppose by the famous Miller standard a work that has redeeming artistic value is automatically not obscene. So is a really powerfully evocative sex scene automatically *not* obscene? Is not only porn if you don't write well?

Before I go further, I should probably note that "explicit" is itself a vague word. One can be very clear about what *has* happened without showing it. One can be very clear about what is happening in a scene without being anatomically precise about the precise anatomical details. And one can be very, very precise about those details.

When I critique a scene, I always ask what the scene accomplishes. I find most explicit sex scenes tedious and not very exciting, because all that detail doesn't move the story forward.

I don't think of sex scenes as really any different than fight scenes. I read a lot of really tedious fight scenes. They're full of detail that is hard to believe, hard to parse, and doesn't really matter very much. The great Hong Kong choreographers of the 80s and 90s were masters of using action to tell a story, to paint characters. One of the best was 1993's Iron Monkey, which had two heroes. The Robin Hood-like Monkey's choreography was heavy on the wire-fu; his lightness and ability to fly reflect his spiritual attainment. The righteous Wong Kei-ying fights low, stable and powerful, reflecting his solid grounding in morality.

The problem I have with anatomically precise sex scenes is that the actors are interchangeable. The action doesn't reflect who the characters are and what their special concerns are. Like dialog, characters should pursue their agendas through action. The detail is wasted.

But this does leave me with a dilemma. What if you *could* write an explicit scene that *does* help paint the characters or move their agenda forward. Does it follow that you should?

I have a story in which a young man (Tenzin) must reject worldly attachment in order to take up a quest. For that to be meaningful, he has to know what he's giving up, and that includes a sexual relationship with a more experienced woman. I have a range of choices. Following the "show not tell" rule, I could be very explicit. I know the characters well enough to make the scene fit them exactly. On the other hand, it's not entirely in character for Tenzin (who is narrating) to talk about these things casually. I've currently split the difference by showing them talking after the deed. This does the work of characterization but seems consistent with his character as narrator, but some would fault me because this is really just a way of avoiding *showing* you what happened. What do you think?

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It was very well written, which sex scenes seldom are, but it struck me that this was something that changed between the time I was a young reader (say in 1970) and the 90s. Explicit sex became respectable in mainstream literature.

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I've read books with fairly explicit sex scenes in which what happened in that scene was so important to the story that the detail was necessary to support what came after. They never bothered me.

I've read other book in which all the writer tells you is that two characters went into the bedroom and closed the door. But, in at least one of those books, that was practically all that happened in every possible configuration. I call that obscene.

I think it is entirely based on what works for your character, and for that matter what you are comfortable writing as an author. I’ve found that some of my favorite love scenes, upon closer examination, didn’t really show anything explicit at all. I remember them as quite steamy, but it’s like seeing a woman’s silhouette in smoke. If you tell it from what he is thinking and feeling rather than describing anatomy you’ll probably have a better scene.

I’ve enjoyed some writing that is rather explicit (Jacqueline Carey), but it limits significantly who I can recommend the books to. I also loved the “In Death” series by J.D. Robb; it is a murder mystery set in the relatively near future (fun! ). By the way, J.D. Robb is a pen name for Nora Roberts, who didn’t want to scare off non-romance readers. The steamy scenes are quite fun and there seem to be a couple in each book, but they always matter to the story. If it doesn’t then you don’t “see” it.

It’s a fine line to walk. Include too much and you limit your audience. Include too little and you may lose the interest of a few. For a story that will be largely absent of such things, I think erring on the side of “wholesomeness” might be the way to go, just as long as you are not sacrificing the story for propriety.

Tenzin is a *tulku* -- an enlightened master who has reincarnated out of compassion for the world.But at the same time he's an awkward and inexperienced young man. Sabbie is the daughter of a famous courtesan who was trained to become a courtesan herself. Tenzin's peculiar combination of naiveté and empathy is a revelation to Sabbie, who is very competent at the mechanics of sex but unfamiliar with love. She'll decide to never return to the city, to remain in her father's home and become a rural matron. This will present Tenzin with a dilemma: to remain with her or to take up the quest.

The crucial details won't be the sexual ones, I'd think, but the emotional ones, as seen from Sabbie's POV. Some small thing Tenzin does (or doesn't do), something subtle, even intangible, that touches her heart and changes her so profoundly.

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But this does leave me with a dilemma. What if you *could* write an explicit scene that *does* help paint the characters or move their agenda forward. Does it follow that you should?

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IMO this is the only reason to include a sex scene in a book, but I don't think I have ever read one that accomplishes this (too be fair, most of the books I read don't even have sex scenes in them). IMO the lead up to the encounter is always more important, more revealing than the actual sex.

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I have a story in which a young man (Tenzin) must reject worldly attachment in order to take up a quest. For that to be meaningful, he has to know what he's giving up, and that includes a sexual relationship with a more experienced woman. I have a range of choices. Following the "show not tell" rule, I could be very explicit. I know the characters well enough to make the scene fit them exactly. On the other hand, it's not entirely in character for Tenzin (who is narrating) to talk about these things casually. I've currently split the difference by showing them talking after the deed. This does the work of characterization but seems consistent with his character as narrator, but some would fault me because this is really just a way of avoiding *showing* you what happened. What do you think?

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I really think you could go either way here. If it is out of Tenzin's character to talk about it, then he shouldn't, and if you can show the characterization in dialog afterwards, then why show it. The only reason to show the sex scene is if it is the best way to show the character development.

I had a marriage scene in one of my stories. The married couple goes into a private room and the door closes. What they do in there is not important to the story so I didn't write about it. What was important is that after one hour they come out, fully dressed and ready. Why? Because the marriage was just a way of him bringing her along legally and now they have to hurry because someone is bearing down on them.

I have a plan of including a sex scene in another story, but that's because someone will try to assassinate one of the characters mid-scene. After all, when is a person more vulnerable than during coitus? I don't see myself writing a sex scene unless I have very important information to reveal with it.

In fantasy literature, fight scenes are expected. In romance, sex scenes are probably expected as well. These scenes are needed in some genres, in others they are just for show. I remember the juicy sex scenes in Ramses by Christian Jacq. They were so juicy in fact that someone declared that historical pornography. Why would a historian want to put such scenes into a historical novel? Ask him. I've also read a work by a science fiction pornography author. Most if not all his stories are both sci-fi and porn. But there, the sex scenes help tell the story. Without those scenes, the story would be pointless.

Your understanding of the issue, I believe, demonstrates that you've answered your own question. Simply, the degree of detail within any scene is dependent on its necessity to the story--be it character development, plot progression, world building, etc.

May I suggest: Sabbie as a courtesan (and daughter of a courtesan, may tend to think more mechanically about sex. I would anticipate her point of view being more unashamedly medically specific and explicit in the act(s) of lovemaking.

This may serve as a delightful counterpoint to Tenzin's perhaps more innocent romanticized and demure point of view.

That Sabbie, as female, has a no nonsense direct understanding of sexual anatomy, physiology, and performance, while Tenzin as male has a more... inexperienced yet imaginative understanding, provides for a fun scene (from the author's and reader's perspectives).

Throughout THE KABBALIST, I have sexual tension between my protagonist Rabbi Cane and his colleague Detective Akako as one of the plot conflicts. This becomes further complicated by a lilin(succubus) posing as Akako. The "sex scene" with the lilin is a bit more explicit, as appropriate to the character. It is more of a battle scene than a sex one. Yet when Cane and Akako finally come together by the end of the novel, the "sex scene" is far less explicit, and reflects their more hesitant natures toward sex and love.

Ever since learning of your concept for THE QUEST FOR NOREMBEGA, I have looked forward to (hopefully) reading it one day. What you share here only increases my anticipation.

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...that's because someone will try to assassinate one of the characters mid-scene. After all, when is a person more vulnerable than during coitus?

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I had a character try that once. It backfired rather horribly. Let's just say the bloke he was trying to do away with has, um, a sense of "appropriate" justice.

Sabbie was not originally an important character. She was there to show Tenzin's innocence and naiveté. Then I did a scene in which Tenzin wrestles with the temptation to stay behind with her. I'd intended to clarify his motivations then throw the scene out, but suddenly I saw that this was the pivotal scene of the whole story. He stops being a likable shlemiel and becomes a hero when he's forced to choose between his desire for Sabbie and his love for her. That meant I had to go back and punch up their relationship.

At that point I became intrigued with the challenge of writing an erotic scene. I had both justification and the material I needed to address what I see as the shortcoming of most such scenes I've read, which is that the anatomical choreography has little relevance to the story and tells us nothing about the characters performing it. I've also been writing a lot of fight scenes, which I have come to dread because they pose similar narrative challenges. For now I've settled on not writing any erotic scenes, because I think I've managed to get the point across without them. But that remains a possibility if critique shows I haven't made the point.

Jewish rabbinic attitudes and teachings about sex are relatively positive and rational. Sex is neither obscene nor shameful nor sinful. Sex is permissible only to married couples, however, and (traditionally) homosexual sex is a non-no; but sex is seen as a blessing that reinforces the love between a man and women--and its limitation to married couples reflects the Jewish understanding that both entail a mutual commitment and responsibility as a possible byproduct of both is the creation of children. Though sex is understood to be not only for procreation, but also for mutual pleasure between a married couple and further uniting them in love.