My first post here except for my introduction one.

Thanks.
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Tamra pushed Jessup's short brown hair back from his forehead. "Jess, I have to go," she said then turned away to get out of bed.

“I could find trail for us to camp for a year or two, you know.”

Her chain mail was laid out neatly on a nearby chair. She started pulling on the padding then the chausses and haubergeon.

She turned with her swordbelt in her hand to look at him in surprise. “Are you serious, or is that one of your cracks?”

He was leaning back against the headboard, one knee propped up and the sheet draped across his midriff. Jessup always looked a bit tousled since he considered frequent shaving beneath the dignity of a ranger.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited July 06, 2007).]

Welcome to Hatrack.

My take:

quote:

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Tamra pushed Jessup's short brown hair back from his forehead. "Jess, I have to go," she said[.] [T]hen [she] turned away [and got] out of bed.

“[I could find trail<--Huh?] for us to camp for a year or two, you know.”

Her chain mail was laid [Deleted] neatly on a nearby chair. She [pulled (Keep it PAST tense)] on the padding[,] the chausses[,] and haubergeon.

She turned[,swordbelt in her hand[,] and look[ed] at him in surprise. “Are you serious, or is that one of your cracks?”

He [leaned] back against the headboard, one knee propped up and the sheet draped across his midriff. Jessup always looked a bit tousled[,] since he considered frequent shaving beneath the dignity of a ranger.

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First, this is more than thirteen lines. Thirteen lines fills the space in the post-box; no more.

Second, you have serious issues with switching tenses from past to present -- sometimes in the same sentence.

Third, the dialogue is wrong for the time period, unless it's a more contemporary fantasy and the "Ranger" you are refering to is either a "Park Ranger" or and "Army Ranger".

If I misunderstood, then I apologize. I am very new to the forum so perhaps you could be a little gentler in explaining the rules to a newcomer. Just a suggestion.

I will re-read the rules about length of posts to be sure that I follow them exactly.

Otherwise, thanks for the comments.

Edit: I re-read the moderator post about 13 lines and I'll quote it here. It still seems to me to be saying that I had the number of lines correct. If I am misunderstanding this, please explain where I went wrong. (ermmm "am misunderstanding" in that sentence is present progressive tense. If I said for example, "was misunderstanding" that would be past progressive tense. Progressive tenses are interesting and useful. They show continuing action. I recommend studying them. )

"When you start a topic in Fragments and Feedback, and put your 13 lines in the message box, you know you're at exactly 13 lines if you can see all of your 13-line text without scrolling. (If you have blank lines between paragraphs, of course, you'll have to scroll that many more lines to see everything, but only in that case.)"

Now what I did was put in the text. I checked to be sure it only filled the text box, then I added the space between lines. If this isn't how it should be done please explain the correct method. I have no desire to break forum rules.

Thanks.

Jessup's first piece of dialogue does read a little strange. At first, I thought they were out in the woods because of it. And do you mean trail or campsite? I thought trails were something you followed, not set up residence on, but that's just me. Not sure what the hook here is. Maybe if Tamra mentioned something she had to go deal with, the reason she has to get up, could be your hook?

I don't have a problem with contemporary language in a make-believe world as long as you don't start throwing around modern slang like bling or phrases from foreign languages, even if they're explained in a sort of punny way...Especially if they're explained in a punny way.

And Kathleen is the final judge of the 13. If she doesn't edit you, then you're good, but I see you've edited your post so I don't know if IB was seeing something different. What's there now looks like the right length.

No, the only edits I made were to a couple of typos so that is exactly what IAB saw. I didn't quite understand what was going on, and I emailed her about the situation.

Thanks for the comments. I'll give them serious consideration.

the standard here is 13 lines of Courier Font at 12 pitch. What you have now reprents 12 lines not counting spaces.

As to your story I pretty much agree with IB.

Using swordbelt and "buckled on" is treating your characters like gunslingers from a western. of course much of fantasy writing today assumes that everybody who wants to adventure is wealthy enough to have and maintain quality weaponry and armor so that isn't too bad of a detriment.

This aside I don't think this is the best scene to introduce a reader to the characters.

I still believe that its poor presentation to introduce characters to a reader this way. It indicates history and even an affectionate history but not one that the reader completely comprehends.

Edit: What it sounds to me like you are saying is that the characters in a novel shouldn't have a past history. I simply don't think that you believe that so I must be missing what it is you're getting at. I also simply don't think you are saying that I should be able to explain their past history to the reader in the first 13 lines. They have a complicated relationship that is essential to the plot.

Sorry if I'm missing the obvious in what you are saying. I really don't quite understand.

By the way, I don't claim to be a grammarian.

But on the issue of objections in general and limited to just what was mentioned in this first 13:

I object to info dumping the names of the armor on the reader just to prove you did your homework.

I object to her having to wear full battle/duty kit when she's clearly had a romp in a bed. I mean if its safe enough to for this romp to have happened in a real bed then its safe enough that she would have some better place to have left this armor before jumping into Jessup's arms.

I object to not knowing where this bed is actually located. Are these lovers in an inn, a castle, a cottage?

I object to not knowing what a ranger is. Is it a hunter, is it a scout is it a bounty hunter is it a robin hood wannabe?

I object to not knowing whether this is an informal or formal group with membership rites or training or what not.

I object to not knowing why other than your description wants them to have dignity I as a reader should credit them as being dignified. Some Tolkien's characters usually used it in a pejorative sense when they referred to Aragon. It was usually meant as someone without land or family.

I object to not knowing why a woman in a fantasy novel (even one written by a woman) has a sword.

I object to finding them in bed sometime post-coitus and yet know nothing of what led them there.

I object to not knowing what kind of socio-economic system they each hold.

I object to quite a lot more but I'll leave it at that.

In general, its not safe to ask what a reader object to in a story, because as a reader I like to know everything. I hate it when an author assumes I already know what kind of world they've created for me to play in, show me the world you've created sooner rather than later but do tell me the things you can't show. You've shown one woman having a sword but you've not told why this woman has a sword and others (likely) don't.

I realize you can't fit this all explicitly within the 13 lines but little hints could do a big help in setting the stage.

"In general, its not safe to ask what a reader object to in a story..." You said that you objected to that as a first scene in your original crit. My asking for clarification was both courteous and a reasonable thing to ask as I didn't understand what you were getting at.

Matt, I post it here solely to find out what critters like or object to. If you don't expect to be asked, why crit?

My asking appears to have made you angry. While I am sorry for that I do think it was a reasonable question.

quote:

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if you agree that "started pulling" is present tense you might want to look it up

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1) I am sorry that you didn't take my welcome as just that, it was.

2) If it makes you feel better: I bow to your oh-so-superior knowledge, JeanneT. You are correct about that tense issue. They are "participles", and I knew that. (Psst. I have seen four manuscripts today that used present-tense "is pulling" and this just blended in with the others. <Shrug> What are you going to do?) As to your email, I don't embarass easily, but thanks for your concern -- if it's genuine.

2) Now, if you can get past the bitterness of your feelings being hurt, you'll see that there is also the rest of the critique, which -- more than likely -- is what Matt was "agreeing with". Which he has every right to (or not to) do, free of reprisal.

3) I'm not a "Her". I'm not even pretty enough (or in the least bit effeminate) to be confused with a female -- of ANY species...well, maybe a baboon? But make no mistake:I'm all man. That should've been obvious by my flaws...

4) IF I didn't see something that I LIKED in your 13 lines, I wouldn't have bothered wasting my time, trying to offer my opinion for your benefit. At the top of my post, you were warned that it would seem brutal. EVERY first-timer takes it that way. It is only later that they learn that this is for their own good. If you want @$$-kissing, and everyone telling you that your prose is brilliant and perfect, show it to friends and family. (Or request that I not try to help) I can take it -- I'm a BIG BOY.

When I object to something it is because I desire it but its not satisfied by information currently present.

I believe most of what I mentioned can be presented to the reader in the first 13 without disrupting the story.

I do not care to make disagreements public, so, yes, I was trying to be nice by emailing you my comments. Perhaps I should have commented further, because your comments came across not as having the least concern about helping.

You capped some of your comments about the grammar issue. This was totally gratuitous. It just indicated that for some reason you thought you had the right to yell about my grammar. Even had you been correct, that would still have been needlessly rude.

I'll say it publicly since you made an issue of my having said something privately.

quote:

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Third, the dialogue is wrong for the time period, unless it's a more contemporary fantasy and the "Ranger" you are refering to is either a "Park Ranger" or and "Army Ranger".

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Saying the dialogue was wrong for the time period was a valid criticism. I will consider your comment and decide whether I agree or not. I thank you for taking the trouble to make it.

Now... would you care to tell me in what way that totally unneeded sarcasm about "Park Rangers' and "Army Rangers" would help me improve my writing?

I assure you that sarcasm from a critter has never been helpful to anyone.

No, I am not insulted. If you were trying for the harshest crit I have ever received, you missed by a longshot. It wasn't even close. It is up to you whether you crit my work again. I will give any crits I receive from you or anyone else serious consideration. I will appreciate the effort put into them.

I will also do crits. When I do I will try very hard to be both honest and courteous.

Matt, I do sincerely appreciate that you took the time and trouble to read and comment. I'm sorry if asking for clarification offended you.

Edit: The harshest crit I ever received was at the Critter Workshop, and every word of the lengthy reaming I was given for sloppy writing was well-deserved.

Every word was polite. She bent over backwards to emphasize that she was expressing her own opinion, and that she wasn't god. She didn't cap anything or make any insulting remarks.

But she told me some very unpleasant truths about the piece of tripe I had written. I smarted for weeks afterwards. More importantly, I learned a great deal from it.

1) I am not yelling. I am typing in bold. If you notice, I do this a lot.

2) The caps weren't rude, they were just a quick way of emphasizing.

3) If you'd care to read my original critique with no predisposed baise, you'd realize that what I took the time to point out was not just to be mean. Were that the case, you'd know it, because those people that know me, would be shocked. (At least, I hope they would be shocked.) "Army" and "Park" -- or, for that matter "Forest" -- rangers aren't sarcastic. That was a legitimate question of time period. The ONLY element in the 13 lines that is remotely fantasy, is:

quote:

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Her chain mail was laid out neatly on a nearby chair. She started pulling on the padding then the chausses and haubergeon.

She turned with her swordbelt...

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...and that could as well be post-apocalyptic /futuristic-fantasy. So, you see, the examples are NOT intended for insult, but, for clarification. If you can't see the question's validity, I simply think you choose to be obtuse.

4) I made an issue of letting you know publicly that I own-up to my mistakes, and am not embarrassed by them. Often making mistakes is how we learn. And, I am NOT above making them. FAR from it.

5) You SEEM very insulted. You've made mention of the "Past Tense" comment in two different topics, and even commented specifically to Matt about it, and even emailed me. Though it was not my intent to offend you, or try to be the harshest crit you have received, I won't baby you either. Nor do I expect it in return.

There is a big difference in bold and caps. Bold is emphasis. I use it myself, in case you didn't notice.

Caps is not emphasis. Caps is yelling. People get upset when someone yells at them. I get upset at walking into someplace like this, a total stranger, and someone comes and starts yelling at me.

Sorry, but I don't believe even for an instant that you were seriously asking if that was a Park Ranger. If you had thought that the "dialogue doesn't fit the time" comment wouldn't have made much sense, would it? *rolls eyes*

I was upset. In fact, I would say I was very upset. That is different from being insulted. My reaction was simply, "Why is this guy yelling at me? Why is he being sarcastic? What is going on here? He doesn't even know me."

I still have the same reaction. You don't even know me. Why be that sarcastic and unpleasant? You can give an honest crit without being mean. Why go on about the length of the piece? It seemed like you were trying to get rid of a new member was all.

Happy writing to you, too.

quote:

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Sorry, but I don't believe even for an instant that you were seriously asking if that was a Park Ranger. *rolls eyes*

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quote:

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If you had thought that the "dialogue doesn't fit the time" comment wouldn't have made much sense, would it?

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It's time to end this before it gets even more out of hand. While I'm sorry to start my time on this forum with an argument, some people simply don't get along. So I wish you peace.

Good night.

The added space is what took it over the 13 lines. On a real manuscript that would have pushed some lines onto the second page; they won't be read by a busy editor scanning first pages only.

Hence the instruction, which is meant to be taken literally. If you have to scroll to read it, after adding blank lines, it's too long to fit on the first page of a manuscript.

I hope this helps.

BTW I'm new here too, and I find the quality of discussion way better managed here than in the Critter's open forums. I think it's due to Kathleen's moderating for which I'm sure many are thankful.

It's true that in some forums, bold or caps means shouting; not here though. I guess it's a case of when in Hatrack River, do what the Hatrack Riverians do.

--
Tamra pushed Jessup's short brown hair back from his forehead. "Jess, I have to go," she said then turned away to get out of bed.

“I could find trail for us to camp for a year or two, you know.”

>> I didn't understand what he was saying. Did he mean, perhaps, "I could find a trail for us to camp along for a year or two" or something like?

Her chain mail was laid out neatly on a nearby chair. She started pulling on the padding then the chausses and haubergeon.

>> I like the 'laid out neatly' because it tells us she's a neat person, another intruiging juxtaposition with the warrior thing.

>> Being not a fantasy reader, I have no idea what chausses and haubergeon is or are, so if you want to draw readers like me in you might want to give us a clue.

She turned with her swordbelt in her hand to look at him in surprise. “Are you serious, or is that one of your cracks?”

He was leaning back against the headboard, one knee propped up and the sheet draped across his midriff. Jessup always looked a bit tousled since he considered frequent shaving beneath the dignity of a ranger.

>> That threw me a little, because I imagined him tousled due to their time, romp, whatever in bed. The shaving seemed irrelevant.

>> But I like these characters already because they seem real, in a fantasy world that sounds dangerous and romantic.

Edit: I never chat at Critter. I have a percentage of around 1600 though so I've done a bit of critting there.

As you probably know the expectation of courtesty at Critters is extremely high. If Aburt finds out you have been rude in crits, he will eat you alive. I shouldn't assume that other forums will have the same standard.

I was probably cheating by putting up something that had been pretty thoroughly critted by some good writers. But I am interesting in trying out a different critting forum just for a change.

Its not that we're not courteous its that we all have a style thats our own.

IB is in my opinion hands down the most thorough and dedicated critter I've ever had. He takes the time to point out every misuse of commas and other grammar points.

However, he is also his own person with whom I have crossed swords over style (in my writing and his) in the past. However, this hasn't caused either of us to not enjoy each others stories.

I say this because Writing prose when compared to other forms of artistry is easy to begin but hard to finish. I say this because writing is fairly easy to do technically (grammar and structure) but hard to do well stylistically while music,dance or art in my opinion are the opposite.

This being the case what you'll find here is a wonderful blend of unabashed stylists who are commenting on your work.

For example when you write

quote:

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Jessup always looked a bit tousled since he considered frequent shaving beneath the dignity of a ranger

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it feels, for at least two of us, that you are assuming that the reader already knows exactly what makes one a "ranger" in your world. Yet everyone here has their own definition of this nearly ubiquitous fantasy profession. This definition comes from their own writing, the writing of others, or their personal real life experience.

Thus simply saying the "dignity of a ranger" means nothing to us. We do not want to do the work for you; we want you to tell us what you want the ranger to be for your story.

In this sentence, I also have a stylistic problem with your world tousled referring to being unshaven. Though it may be a correct use of the denotation of the word, connotation is where the reader lives. Tousled is so rarely used to define unshaven that it really threw me for a loop because I usually see it in conjunction with messy hair not a scruffy three day growth.

But again this is a stylistic issue not a technical issue. So its up to you to take it or leave it.

However, this is a novel so you get longer than the first 13 to develop your story before I toss it away. Personally I give most novels a couple thousand words to hook me.

Well, obviously, you admire IB, but I don't really feel any need or desire to discuss him further.

As I mentioned, that is a chapter that has been thoroughly critted. I debated cutting the word ranger out of that paragraph before. In fact, I did cut it, and then put it back. I've decided to leave it in. I think it adds more than it detracts. But, I do understand what you are saying.

Actually, I think you are right that tousled isn't an ideal word choice in that paragraph. I will probably replace it with disheveled.

I just respect him. There's a difference.

Just read our posted exchange over his short story in F&F for shorts to see how we've crossed swords before.

I think you've got a decent beginning. If within the first 2k words you answer most of my objections about what's missing in the first 13, I feel like you've likely got a good novel on your hands.

I interpret putting on the chain mail as taking her leave with battle in her immediate future. If she wears chain mail all the time in your story world, that will come out and it should be made clear fairly soon. It's one of the areas where fantasy can contradict the historical - chain mail was heavy, uncomfortable and expensive. It wasn't used lightly.

You appear to be introducing and developing characters in our minds. That's one way to start, distinct from showing setting or an event. Your choice. Gotta say, I want to know soon where they are and what is a 'ranger' in this story. I think that's something that takes liberal use of license because we have an understanding of the term in modern times.

"find trail for us to camp for a year or two" - I took this to mean they could travel the trail, camp along it and be together as lovers for a while. If that's what you meant, great. If it's not, there's a clue about how it communicates. In either case, it took this reader some work to make sense of it. That's a cost you have to consider - how many will be confused or object to doing that much work and how much will they stand before they put down the book.

About 13 lines: Kathleen Dalton Woodbury, the administrator, discusses how she tests the 13-line posts in

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum6/HTML/000001.html

from which I conclude that the size of the posting box is a convenience, but not authoritative. She uses a Word template that is offered for download. I use that template in the word processor rather than the posting window to edit story text.

http://www.shimmerzine.com/Hatrack/manu_templates.zip

quote:

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I took this to mean they could travel the trail, camp along it and be together as lovers for a while.

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That is exactly what it was meant to convey. However, I may change the wording slightly since I didn't intend it to be hard to understand.

Thanks for the feedback.

Edit: When I read the instructions on the 13 it seemed like she was saying the blank lines didn't count. Thanks for confirming that.

I don't count the paragraph-separating lines when I count for 13 lines.

And I apologize for not coming in on the unpleasantness earlier. I was out of town for the day (family stuff--it's been a week for it), and decided to wait until today to check on things.

We have many different people here, with many different styles of critiquing, and we try to make certain that those styles include politeness even when the feedback may seem harsh.

When someone first begins posting here at Hatrack, it might be better to include softening disclaimers such as "in my opinion" or "this is how I reacted" because they are not so absolutist and can help to ease the newcomers into our forum.

We've had a few people lately who have been stung by some of the feedback they've received, and some of them have left without being willing to give themselves or us time to get used to each other.

When giving a crit, I do try to remember that I'm not god or an editor. A critter's opinion is exactly that: their opinion. Obviously I am not one to give up easily, and I try to resist the temptation to slap someone up the side of the head when they made me mad, too. Neither is a good reaction. I am more prone to the latter though.

We tend to be a bit . . .hum . . blunt here but then, that's the value of Hatrack.

I'm not sure you are starting in the right place.

This is why:

While you have some really intersting things going on - like she's the warrior - they are getting lost for me as I try to figure out the details.

I do what to know where they are in general terms. Are they at on inn, in her camp, where?

The line: “Are you serious, or is that one of your cracks?”

Is lost on me because I don't know Jessup yet. What cracks?

The language is very modern but you have swords and such so I'd like to be better oriented in time as well.

This: “I could find trail for us to camp for a year or two, you know.”

Made no sense to me. Maybe "find a trail for us to explore for a year or two. . ." is more what you meant. But then it makes me wonder about her. Why is she armed? In whose service is she? Can she really just leave that service?

The term "ranger" isn't capitalized so I can't tell if it's a title or what.

If you start either before the romp in bed or after it, some of these questions won't arise.

Your first 13, unintentionally, raise a host of questions you don't answer and probably can't answer in the paragraph or so afterwards. Think about whether this is the best place to start.

Where does this fall in terms of MICE? ie. Milieu, Idea, Character or Events type of story?

A good bit of the feedback is "sorry, but no I wouldn't read on" or "probably not the best place to start."

Read on - 3
No/ different start - 4

Most everyone is confused about what is happening. The read ons come mostly from having a female warrior.

If you cleared up a few of the questions you probably would increase the read on factor and create a hook.

Your story, your choice but it's something to think about.

Different philosophy, I suppose.

The beginning is right for me and right for the story. Thanks for the comments and suggestions though. Discussion is good for clarifying where you are, even if you decide you're in the right place. I appreciate people taking the time to read and comment.

I was curious to find out how critting here compared to where I am currently having it done over at Critter's Workshop. It was interesting.

For anyone who is curious how I found the difference, over there it takes a while to get crits done, but to count the crit has to be at least 300 words and is usually on at least one chapter, frequently on substantial portions of the novel at a time. So the critting is quite different.

Anyway, thanks all.