quote: there were more Jewish people then Germans. I'm sure if I could find the population count of Germany before the Holocaust I could prove it, however I do not have the time or patience to proove myself to you right now I know I'm right
Gabriel. I welcomed you to the forum, but I do not support your absurd and naive positions regarding Hitler and Germany before and during WWII nor the comparisons of Hitler and Ender. In the ultimate analysis, Hitler was a complete sociopath and one of the greatest murderers in history (most of them German citizens), surpassed perhaps by Stalin in sheer numbers, but Russia had a larger population. Pol Pot killed 1/3 of the population of Cambodia, he's a contender too. Ender, on the other hand, was in training (he thought) to defend humanity from alien invaders, and tricked by his teachers to kill an entire species save for one queen, which he cared for as an act of contrition for his unwilling participation in Xenocide. Ender was moral; Hitler was an amoral monster.
Rivka covered most of the highlights of mistakes in your posts, but I thought this was worth pointing out. Most of the Jews killed were Germans. German Jews are a subset of the German people. Therefore your statement is ipso facto (on the face of it) trivially and totally wrong. Even granting a hypothetical non-citizenship to German Jews, Jews still never outnumbered non-Jews in Germany nor any other country but Israel post-1948. Also, Hitler also had many other civilians such as Gypsies, Poles, Russians, Czech, the insane, the retarded, etc etc. exterminated. In general, try to do your homework before posting controversial opinions, or you will be called on it. If you don't "have the time or patience to proove " your own points, you won't garner any respect but rather only embarrassed laughter.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Could you point me to some of the readings on Hitler’s not regarding the Jews a threat? I don’t doubt you at all; I’ve just never come across them.
I only ask because the last thing I read on the topic was an argument that he was a paranoid schizophrenic. I can’t for the life of me remember where I read this (some journal in a doctor’s office, I think). It was making the broader point that some people with paranoid delusions and highly charismatic personalities have the ability to use their delusions as manipulative tools.
Of course, if he was cynically just picking a convenient scapegoat, that goes against that theory.
I think switching the comparison around and comparing the victims of the two genocides is pretty much a total rebuttal of the article. Bugger – invaders who had killed 100 million people in their first attack and never made an attempt to communicate vs. a greatly outnumbered, powerless people with a history of being oppressed going back to the Philistines. Sheer ridiculousness.
Thanks,
Dagonee PS, I’d like to read the original article (and OSC’s refutation), but I can’t see contributing money to a journal that would print something like that to get the reprint.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I would just like to again applaud someone. Morbo when I read yours and Rivka's, which goes without saying, I got tingles down my spine. Everyone including Gabriel in a screwed up way has helped me understand OSC writings. I hope to do my Senior Project on him this year. I hope that I can read more of your posts to get a even better understanding of him. I would appreciate any help you would like to give me. As I said before I have only read one of his books and I am going on to the next ones. Again I thank you and applaud you. Posts: 12 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Dragonee, I've read so much on the Holocaust (over the course of close to 20 years) that it's hard for me to trace sources. But here's one.
quote: Adolf Hitler, who was born in Braunau, Austria in 1889, had nothing but positive interactions with Jews in his childhood and youth, contrary to popular belief that tries to blame his actions on some early vendetta. In his youth, when he was a struggling artist, many of the people who supported him were Jews. Even more, some important figures in his life were Jewish -- like his family doctor or his commander in World War I who nominated him for the Iron Cross.
And yet, despite these positive experiences, Hitler had a deep-seated hatred of the Jews.
quote: Hitler also was not insane. He had his neuroses, but he was not crazy. In fact, he was a brilliant political manipulator. We can certainly say a lot of horrible things about him, but Hitler was one of the greatest public speakers in human history. If you understood German, you'd understand while watching tapes of his speeches why those blonde, blue-eyed Germans cheered so heartily a man whose very appearance contradicted everything he preached. There he was with black hair, as far away as he could come in appearance from the Aryans, the master race with which he wanted to populate the earth. And yet they gave him their loyalty and gave up their lives for him.
posted
"'I know I'm right' is a statement never used except to prove it's own inaccuracy."
Paraphrased-Taken from OSC in Ender's Shadow, except it was "I'm not stupid!" but you get the general idea.
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Any newcomer who thinks a post of mine is "spine-tingling" automatically qualifies for minion status. Line forms to the right, no pushing or cutting in line. Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
At first I didn't even plan to read this thread bit, I had to see how someone could say such a thing and heres my thouights.
I just have to point out one thing that I haven't really seen yet. Hitler killed but I don't recall hearing about any talkes with these "threats" to discuse changes, and i relize Ender doesn't in EG but at one point he talks with Mazer(or Graff) can't remember which about why they have to fight te buggers and he relizes it becuse he CAN'T talk to them and is told don't worry. If this this is confuseing i'm sorry i just tryed to post my thoughts as clearly as I could.
And another point has has been mad farly well. Hitler killed for power, Ender killed as a unknowing tool. And the only reson he killed the buggers is he was tired of training and thought it would make him seem unfit for command and as soon as he finds out it's real he falls into utter dispare and vows(not quit litterly but we all fell it I think and not tillt he first colony) to use his life to attempt to begin to right his terrble wrong. When did Hitler attemt to make ammends.
I am sorry for any incoherincy and mis spelling but the fact that someone could wright such an article(Which I haven't read) has my head spinning.
posted
My understanding of the article was that Radford uses some similarities between Ender and Hitler (Ender has a strong relationship with Valentine; Hitler was rumored to have a strong relationship with his sister) to provide the basis of her article.
When it comes down to it, there are a lot of similarities between me and Hitler-- we both have brown hair, we both have hands, we both have families, we've both only been married once, we both supposedly love kids. . .
posted
Well thanks Morbo your really nice. Yes I do have a senior project and if I don't do it I fail and I won't beable to graduate so I thought I would do it on something I am passionate about. Then maybe I will get it completely done and not be a slacker. Which most of the time I am. Thanks again though Morbo and your post did send tingles down my spine your a very good writer you should think of it as a profession. Posts: 12 | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote: Hey, don't look at me, Wetchik- I didn't read the article. Just playin' devil's advocate.
Suntrunafs: I'm not blaming you for anything. My hostility is for the "author" of that terrible article. I understand what you mean. You're just trying to be objective. When you get idiots like this person writing stuff like this, objectivity flies right out the window.
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posted
Tris- your last post has an offensive word enmeshed in it. There is a whistle blowing feature, but I have recently (and painfully) been informed that it is polite to point out someone's faux pas to them before blowing the whistle on them. Anyway, we generally try to be more respectful on this forum. Especially this side.
Okay, what about Graff? I was driving on the Freeway the other day, thinking about whether the deaths of Stilson and Bonso will still be deaths in the movie, and thinking about Graff. I mean, he was the one who wielded Ender as a tool to accomplish the xenocide. Rackham was fairly actively involved as well. I think they were acting in what they believed was self defense. I don't think Hitler was acting in self defense because his other holocaust targets were "defective" people. Causing one to think about the Terri Schindler Sciavo case.
The great Irony of the offending essay is that it presupposes that the "formics" were Ramen.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Has anybody read Mien Kampf (Hitler's book)? I am going to read that (English translation...I'm not German) as soon as I catch up with my list (I still have to finish 'Fear Nothing,' and read Catch-22 and Treason...).
Anyway, from what I've heard, in that book, Hitler seems to portray the Jews as animals - to him the holocaust was just hunting for sport. Though I'm apalled by this sport, I wouldn't consider advocates of this evil. I've also heard, though don't know if it's true, that he was a schizophrenic. If it is true, I've had enough schizophrenic friends and contacts that I could understand Hitler's actions. Not approve; understand.
Also, though I have NO idea where Gabriel came up with that stuff, it didn't sound like he was being anti-simetic (unless, of course, he made it up and had no real source, other than himself). It sounded, rather, like he was someone unacquainted with America, who repeated an article he saw on the cover of a tabloid. Liars need bashings; the ill-informed don't. Not that rivka was bashing, but...why would you congratulate her (or him? sorry, I haven't got the sex of everybody down yet) for soemthing she didn't do?
Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: Tris- your last post has an offensive word enmeshed in it. There is a whistle blowing feature, but I have recently (and painfully) been informed that it is polite to point out someone's faux pas to them before blowing the whistle on them. Anyway, we generally try to be more respectful on this forum. Especially this side.
There is quite a bit of evidence that Mein Kampf was not a true expression of Hitler's beliefs, but an excuse for them. He knew Jews personally -- served under a Jewish commander in WWI, his childhood doctor was a Jew -- viewing Jews as animals was certainly not evidenced in his earlier life. Neither was schizophrenia.
Failing to see Jews as human would hardly be a defense of his actions, in any case. It would be, IMO, far more evil. Hitler was a psychopath, and as close to evil as any human can come.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: There is quite a bit of evidence that Mein Kampf was not a true expression of Hitler's beliefs, but an excuse for them. He knew Jews personally -- served under a Jewish commander in WWI, his childhood doctor was a Jew -- viewing Jews as animals was certainly not evidenced in his earlier life. Neither was schizophrenia.
Wow...my brain is so Orson-Scott-Card-ified that I now see a REAL easy connection between Hitler and Achilles (the whole "you saw me in a state of despair, and, thus, you will die").
I wonder if OSC would ever write a book about Hitler...he seems to have a good perception of human nature - both evil and good. And all his books show the point of view of practically all involved characters.
I doubt he would, though, as it would probably just revive this woman's ridiculous accusation.
Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Yes, yes, Da_Goat, you have it right. It is ACHILLES that is developed from Hitler as the prototype, NOT Ender. (And never, for one moment, is any sane reader tempted to be sympathetic with the aims and methods of Achilles.)
I suspect the crazy Radford allegations may have tempted Card to say, "If I WAS going to make a character inspired by Hitler, THIS is how I would do it," and he created Achilles.
So, you are reading Mein Kampf? Good. "Know your enemy." Try Karl Marx's CAPITAL (also available in translation) also. When I read it, THEN I knew why I was not a Communist or even a Socialist.
The people may be dead, the regimes may be over- thrown, but the ideas are not dead at all. We must learn to recognize them.
posted
all very good points and opinions expressed. some very well worded as well as being very foolish. Lets just put it simply, Ender was nothing like Hitler. Card did not intend that and made it apparent himself. Whoever wrote the article waisted their time comparing a sci fi, futuristic hero to a historical tyrant. There really is no point in drawing parallels.
quote:So, you are reading Mein Kampf? Good. "Know your enemy." Try Karl Marx's CAPITAL (also available in translation) also. When I read it, THEN I knew why I was not a Communist or even a Socialist.
The people may be dead, the regimes may be over- thrown, but the ideas are not dead at all. We must learn to recognize them.
I've got to admit, I'm mystified by this comparison. I've read Captial too and I'm really curious what parts of it you think rank up there with Hitler?
I thought that the book contained some very interesting and accurate things and some very innaccurate or strange things. However, I never had a feeling of EVIL coming from it. Especially in regards to the times in which he was writing in, Marx, in Capital, seems to be mostly pushing against evil things rather than the opposite. And that's in the proportionately few times that he is adovcating specific systems rather than describing how he thinks economic systems in general work.
However, I'm always interested in other perspectives. Could you tell me what it was that so horrified you about this book?
posted
I'm really sorry about my profanity. I know I probably shouldn't use it but, I told you to excuse it. At any rate it was wrong and I am sorry. I won't use any more curse words. -Tristionya
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posted
Yes, indeed, Mr. Squicky, Marx's CAPITOL is a completely different piece of goods from MIEN KAMPF. It is not the wildness of a mind going insane with obssession.
It is a coolly imagined social structure that, in its way, simply violates almost every principle that the loosely defined "Western Civilization" is built on.
1. Religious faith is condemned. 2. The family is denigrated. 3. Gradual reform of abuses of the working class is even worse than being an abuser in the first place, because gradual reformers delay the necessary revolution. I cannot give you the exact reference, but there is a place where Marx says the "middle class socialist" (reformer) is even worse than a factory owner. [Granted, that when Lenin defended socialism brought about by violent means, he yanked Marx's quotes out of context; but even in context they are more on the side of violence than not.]
Hitler (and fascists generally) are like madmen spraying bullets at random or swinging sledge-hammers. Marxists/Leninists are careful, well-spoken people who are carefully poisoning the family food.
And when we look, not at the roots, but the fruits, what do we see? Under Hitler, millions of men, women, and children are gassed to death. Under Stalin (Marxist/Leninist) men, women and children quietly die of starvation under the "agricultural reforms."
Yes, it is a very different KIND of evil. But how much difference does it make to the victim?
Posts: 74 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Edie, I think you may be taking about a different book, perhaps The Communist Manifesto. As far as I can remember, Capital contains none of the positions that you attribute to it.
As far as judging a book by it's fruits, I'd no more feel justified condemning Capital because of Stalin's excesses than I would condemning the Bible based on the various atrocities committed by Christians in the name of Christ over the centuries or condemning the Declaration of Idenpendence and U.S. Constitution because of the U.S. attempted genocide of Native Americans.
I must confess that I have not read the Manifesto nor do I know much about economics beyond my required courses (Econ 101 and History of Econ),
BUT
I must say that the point of not judging a written work by the actions of adherents strikes a chord with me. On the one hand, I agree, and on the other there is a part of me saying "wait a minute! these are the folks that are putting into practice the ideas of the author/theorist/philosopher."
I guess it's kind of like the chicken and egg question.
Good food for thought, though.
*Wanders off muching pensively*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
May i ask why Ender is being compaired to an egotistical dead tyrant dictator who killed millions of jews because he thought he was in the process of creating a perfect race? What lunitic would ever come up with this idea?! I am outraged at even the thought!!! So what if he nearly destroyed an entire race! I have two points: a) he, at the time, was completely unaware that he was killing others! he thought it was a game! He was fatiqued and nearly to a point of mental insanity and the fact still stands that he DID NOT know!!! Ignorance? Yes. But, he DID NOT know! b) he was also the only being that could revive the buggars! My personal reation was that he actually introduced the buggars to the piggies and helped two different species!!! He even made a friend out of the queen and many of the piggies!!! He was not evil!!!
{Edit: if you read carefully above, I stated 'What lunitic would ever come up with this idea?!' I appologize if anyone took this as a personal attack or some garbage like that. I ment a LUNITIC, and not, I hope, and Hatracker's. Unless of course you are a lunitic who thinks Ender is Hitler's clone, then it is directed towards you.}
posted
Makes me wonder what kind of creepy mindset would actually approach EG like that in the first place...since what you find in the world (or a book, event, whatever) often says less about the world, book, etc. than it does about you. You find what you look for. Anyone looking for evil in the work of OSC is clearly bring it to the table themselves.
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posted
Shan, I'm not trying to defend The Communist Manifesto or anything. I'm certainly not a Marxist. I am saying that Capital is a book of economic criticism that can stand quite separate from the social reforms that it's author also pushed. There are ideas in there that are very important and shoud not be dismissed because of prejudice or because of what other people made of them. It is an important book, but one whose importance will be missed if you approach it with only hostility and defensiveness. That's pretty much all.
----
As to the comparison of Ender to Hitler, of course on it's merits it's absurd. But that's the thing. I feel that people are reacting to it inappropriately. It's not something to get worked up about. That confers on it an importance that it doesn't deserve. The author would most likely see parallels between any figure responsible for genocide, be it by something as innocent as tripping over a power cord, and Hitler. This deserves laughter and pity, but is not to be taken seriously enough to get upset about.
Although, if I squint my eyes just right and drink 2 3/4 glasses of tequila, I can see where this idea sort of came from. In Speaker for the Dead, Ender Wiggin - the historical figure, not the actual character - is treated as kind of a Hitler figure, in that he is regarded as a monstrous embodiement of evil. I'm sure that in a debate in that theoretical world, it would be common to Godwin your opponent by comparing him to Ender.
quote:"But the Speaker for the Dead, the one who wrote this book, he's the wisest man who lived in the age of flight among the stars. While Ender was a murderer, he killed a whole race of people, a beautiful race of ramen who could have taught us everything-" "Both human, though," whispered the Speaker. Human was near them now, and he spoke a couplet from the Hegemon: "Sickness and healing are in every heart. Death and deliverance are in every hand."
This encapsulates one of the main point of the book, that all human beings are just that, human beings. It is a common human behavior to make a monster out of your opponent, to make them varlese, and thus deny any connection with them. Speaker for the Dead advances the idea that this is not justified. It says that no person is an animal uncapable of being understood, even if they are a Hitler or a Saddam Hussien or a Karl Marx. I could see how some people, who are strongly invested in believing in the absolute evil of some others, would see this as a de facto defense of those others.
Obviously I don't agree. Hitler doesn't have to be a monster, but it is not in defense of him that I say that he was instead a man who did very monstrous things.
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posted
Kristine, you hit upon my point exactly. I asked if anyone had read it because I had the same experience reading it that Scott did (although I was in college. How a 9 year-old...? All the more reason for to OSC). IMO, people making comments about Hitler need to read that book if they want their comments to carry any weight. I know, I know, it's not the only book out there on the topic, but I think it's the best.
Posts: 196 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Did I wander into the Twilight Zone or something? Are people so damned ignorant that they're actually finding reasonable comparisons between Adolf Hitler and Ender Wiggin?
Having read Ender's Game many times as well as studying WWII and Hitler in particular, I have to wonder how anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of both could think such a parallel exists. There is only one way in which Ender and Adolf are alike, and it's a stretch at that. Ender wiped out an entire species, and Adolf tried to wipe out an entire race in Europe.
Now for the ways in which they weren't alike. One, Hitler intentionally tried to murder the entire Jewish race in Europe. Ender did not have any such intent with regards to the Formics. Two, Hitler was his own master and made the decision to attempt to wipe out the Jews in Europe himself. Ender did not-he was tricked into it by his military and political superiors. If one has actually read Ender's Game, then they'll remember the part where Ender annihilated the Formic homeworld because he was quitting the game. He did it specifically because he thought his superiors would find such an action, even in a simulation, unconscionable and thus let him finally quit. Three, the Jews in Europe were no threat to Hitler, and Hitler knew it. They were a small minority almost universally despised throughout Europe at the time. Hitler's own words prove that he was smart enough to know they were no real threat. The Formics, however, were a real threat, in fact one that we couldn't communicate with. They were a numerous, technologically advanced, highly capable society that undeniably posed a threat to humanity.
Gabriel, it's obvious that you are at best poorly informed about both Adolf Hitler and Ender's Game. Your conclusions are based on entirely incorrect information, and you're coming very close to excusing the Holocaust as well as justifying Hitler's pogroms and hatred of the Jews.
quote:He wiped out an entire race of Alien life forms he thought the world was threatened by.
He did not "think" the Formics were a threat, he knew it. If memory serves, they attacked Earth and our solar system on two seperate occassions, razing China among other regions of the planet.
quote:Just like Hitler tryed to wipe out the Jewish people in Germany because he thought they were a threat to him.
He tried to wipe out the Jews in more than just Germany, and if you'll do a little real research on Adolf Hitler, you'll quickly find that he simply used the Jews as a rallying point. They were no threat to him and he knew it.
quote:but I'm sure that all the political influence that most Jewish people had was indeed a threat to Hitler's power
The Jews did not have much political influence in Germany or anywhere in Europe.
quote:Who better then his greatest threat and also the weakest people he could find
Curious. Sometimes the Jews were Hitler's greatest threat, other times they were his weakest enemy. Make up your mind.
quote:Again like you said nobody in Germany really liked the Jewish people in the first place...They were stealing there jobs, they were coming into there neighborhoods, and sending there children to there schools
And yet, this relatively tiny minority was Hitler's "greatest threat"? And what's all this BS about stealing jobs, coming into their neighborhoods, etc.? Fool, the Jews were already there. They had been in Europe for centuries.
quote:but they were a threat to our power just like the Jewish people were a threat to Hitler's.
Have you even read Ender's Game? Remember how the Formics were waging and winning a war of extermination against humanity? Maybe your Cliff's Notes version of Ender's Game skipped that part.
quote:He chose to kill the Buggers as Hitler chose to kill the Jewish people. They did it for most of the same reasons the number one being influence and again power.
Ender did not choose to annihilate the Formics, he was tricked into it. The reasons for annihilating the Formics all are founded on the certainty that the Formics were doing the same thing to humanity.
OSC did not make Ender similar to Hitler. To reach that conclusion, you've had to twist both history and the book, changing or outright ignoring both historical writing (Hitler's), and ignoring just about the entire end of Ender's Game.
quote:Ok Blacwolve oviously you weren't listening to my last post the Jewish people, however hated, were a very powerful influence. Most of them were in office or what not...They were an influence despite popular beleif that is why they were so hated. They were taking from the Germans and Hitlers only way to gain there power was to have the Germans turn against them once and for all. Thats why the Nazis were constructed because if you were smart you would know Hitler killed his first army (I can't recall the name) he developed because he wanted an army of the people...People he knew would cast the Jewish people out with no problems. They were powerful they did have influence within the Jewish community and there were more Jewish people then Germans. I'm sure if I could find the population count of Germany before the Holocaust I could prove it, however I do not have the time or patience to proove myself to you right now I know I'm right...And your questioning yourself.
What the hell are you talking about? There were more Jewish people than Germans in Germany?
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posted
Noeman, I don't think so. The responses were actually very restrained for over 5 days, considering it was such a contraverisial topic on a forum full of OSC fans. S.Watson chose only to post once, for his or her's own reasons.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I don't think we ran S. Watson off. I think S. Watson just posted to get information, and had no intention of joining the forum.
I am just about the only person who responded directly to S. Watson, so I guess I'm a bit touchy on the thought that "we" might have run this person off, especially in light of suntranaf's accusations that I am a nasty blankety-blank who suppresses people's rights to free speech. I believe my reply was very polite and reasonable and understanding, and I even went through the effort of posting a link to OSC's response to Radford's article. I feel that my response was entirely appropriate, and I don't intend to apologize for it.
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posted
I agree that S. Watson was likely just looking for info and never intended to join a long term discussion.
And MegaIcky is a kind, courteous poster who contributes wonderful things to all discussions he is involved in. If he's feeling at all defensive about this or the other thread, he shouldn't. (Got that, Ic?)
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I agree with you, Black Mage. It didn't help me as much as I hoped it would, but if you know OSC's personallity enough (through his published works and of course Hatrack) you should know what lines OSC thinks along, and therefor assume... or is it just me?
Posts: 100 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Oh, hey, Icarus, I wasn't meaning you in particular (or at all). I didn't think there was anything wrong with your reply. Actually, I agree that S. Watson was probably just looking for information, but I had assumed that the reason he hadn't responded at all was because he felt like he'd touched a nerve.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
"especially in light of suntranaf's accusations that I am a nasty blankety-blank who suppresses people's rights to free speech."
If you'd read my posts just a little more carefully I think you could see that I didn't mean anything all that bad- though perhaps I was excessively vicious, I have a tendency to do that from time to time, but I'm "calling em as I see em". As far as I know there are worse insults than blankety blank, and worse crimes than suppresing free speech by accident. It's just that when a whole bunch of people do it at the same time it drives me nuts. Give peace a chance .
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I would just like to again applaud someone. Morbo when I read yours and Rivka's, which goes without saying, I got tingles down my spine. Everyone including Gabriel in a screwed up way has helped me understand OSC writings. I hope to do my Senior Project on him this year. I hope that I can read more of your posts to get a even better understanding of him. I would appreciate any help you would like to give me. As I said before I have only read one of his books and I am going on to the next ones. Again I thank you and applaud you. ![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
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I'm really sorry about my profanity. I know I probably shouldn't use it but, I told you to excuse it. At any rate it was wrong and I am sorry. I won't use any more curse words.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
But how much difference does it make to the victim?
