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You just going to post it with no comment Jay? If you don't feel it deserves a comment, why do you think we should comment? Hmmmmm???
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A 8 year old who headbutts his teacher and in all other ways creates a situation that is physically dangerous for the other children should be removed. As public schools are not allowed to redirect children physically, I'm not sure what other method they might have used to handle the situation.
I don't see anything wrong with what they did, and I surely wouldn't call it a "tantrum". Tantrums are what toddlers have. A 4' tall 8 year old is not a toddler.
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I wanted to throw it in and see first everyone thought. Now that jeniwren has brought up the spanking issue point I can agree with her. Much safer for me! Plus I can ask questions about that too! So… do you think if they were allowed to spank in schools the kid would be more behaved?
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Don't you think arresting the kid was a bit excessive? I have an 8yr old sister and the thought of her being taken away in handcuffs sends shivers up my spine. I think if they needed to remove the child from the environment they should have called the parents and had them come take the child. If the parents refused then maybe the police would be the only choice.
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Depends on the kid and the situation, Penguin. I have seen an out of control kid of this age who truly was a danger to the teachers. Some boys are very strong, especially when they are angry.
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And Jay - I only said that because when you throw out a link to a possibly-volatile article, without quoting any direct part of it you think makes your point, or voicing any point of any kind of your own, it makes it appear you are "baiting" us.
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"Now that jeniwren has brought up the spanking issue point I can agree with her"
Jeniwren said nothing about spanking, unless she edited it out.
Schools are allowed to restrain students, but if the restraint goes for more than a certain length, or if there is no one who is trained in applied nonviolence, or if the danger to staff and other students is deemed to be high, police would be called.
Some of the most difficult children to "control" are younger children, especially emotionally disturbed children.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Trying to restrain a child also raises the issue of liability of any injury to the child and for that matter, to the teachers and/or staff attempting to restrain them.
You think police get hammered for improper restraint techniques?
Imagine what would happen to a teacher who accidentally injured a student while trying to restrain or subdue. The teacher, the school board and anyone else within arm's reach would be looking down the barrel of a very nasty lawsuit.
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That would be great if parents would do that. I have a teacher friend who tells about some of her conversations with parents. For example she’s had to call multiple parents about cheating and the parents don’t believe her. Think that she is lying and don’t believe her even when she has proof. If some kid is turning over desks and you can’t touch him what are you supposed to do? Talk gently? Ask nicely? In this environment of not being able to do anything I think they had no choice. And it is a shame. The kid should have been in detention after about an hour straight of paddling (ok, not literally, but you know what I mean).
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"If some kid is turning over desks and you can’t touch him what are you supposed to do?"
Interstingly, we are not allowed to touvh a child who is throwing desks or destroying property. We remove the other children and call the principal, who would usually call the police.
If a child attacks another child, a few of us are trained to intervene. As Trevor said, it can be big trouble. However, the natural tendency of teachers is to protect children.
It is a very tough situation all the way around. I am a firm believer in inclusion, except for students with severe emotional issues. I think they need to be in a separate place. There are fewer and fewer places for these kids to go.
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I had a teacher in high school, she must have been about 5'1". Two football players were fighting, and she couldn't break them up. She took off one of her shoes and said, "Whichever one wins gets this." They both stopped fighting and started laughing. Then she sent one to the office and told him to have them send a messenger back when he got there.
As impressive a bit of people management I ever saw.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Liz is right. I didn't say anything about spanking, and I don't advocate its use to parents or schools. (Which is not to say I think it's child abuse. I just think it's typically a very poor method of discipline. And that it's one that has been overused despite it's generally poor results.) I am absolutely against its use in schools. Ever. For any reason.
This child was being disciplined by losing the privilege of recess. He lost all control and got physically violent. At 4' tall, he was probably pretty dangerous, even to adults. When kids lose control, they don't hold back. Think feral.
I just hope that the consequence of his actions are sufficient to get the parents attention to see that they may very well need some outside assistance in helping their son. He obviously has some problems.
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I have a friend (male) who is a teacher at a middle school, and a boy there went ballistic and was hitting another student, and this teacher (who is a black belt in martial arts I might add) stepped in just enough to restrain the out-of-control student and get him off the injured student.
Now the attacking student's parents are trying to sue this teacher for allegedly "trying to choke" the boy. Believe me - if he had wanted to choke him - he would have! He was not harming him in any way. Luckily, it appears the teacher has enough witnesses to back him up that it will end up being dismissed.
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If I'd acted like that in Elementary school, My mother would have shipped me off to one of those "voluntary youth discipline" facilities... of course only after she beat the crap out of my rear end... IMO... Alot of parents are so concerned with the emotional effect of disclpline that they often times will let their kids get away with just about anything... Thats the real problem...
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JTStryker, it really isn't always problem. Often, students whom you feel might "need" a spanking, are very often being abused at home.
Edit: Witnesses are key! I would never get involved in any sort of physical restraint without a witness there.
I am on a team at school who is trained in applied nonviolence(silly, silly name, I know). I have been involved in many restraints, but never in this school. Of all the times I have had to restrain a child, the most difficult were the younger ones. "Feral" sums it up. Add insane to that mix, and badabing! No fun at all. Testosterone-laden teenagers were usually easier to handle, because their rage was focused, and once the focus was broken, they were OK.
[ March 04, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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quote: I am a firm believer in inclusion, except for students with severe emotional issues. I think they need to be in a separate place. There are fewer and fewer places for these kids to go.
Unfortunately, I've been in one of these places (just for 12th grade). Kids with severe emotional/behavioral disorders were lumped in with kids who were there as an alternative to juvey and kids who were gay and their parents didn't want to deal with it and kids in long-term foster care and others. Because of the chair-throwers, almost no learning got done in some classes-- not that most teachers treated us as if we were capable of learning, anyway. And the ones that did got harassed and picked on by half of the class because they were used to getting a free ride and didn't want to be expected to do any work.
Luckily, I was largely allowed to do independent study and to spend two periods-- which amounted to a good chunk of a day, because we were on a "block" schedule-- helping out in one of the elementary school classrooms.
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quote: Believe me - if he had wanted to choke him - he would have! He was not harming him in any way.
I've always wondered how effective that would be as a defense with a jury. On th eone hand, they might think of him as violent, or think he knew how to do stuff without leaving marks. On the other hand, it's clear he could have done something worse.
Interesting trial ad problem.
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sorry, I guess i wasn't clear, I'm not saying that they should be "spanked" I'm say that they aren't properly being disciplined.
But on a side note, Several of my friends fall into the category that I was describing. They can get away with anything, so they will go ahead and do anything.... If I were some of my friends parents, I'd be shipping them off to a military school in a heart beat... but since I'm not, I guess I'll just have to settle for using my "If you had my Mom for a mom..." lines...
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Many schools in my town (including elementary schools) have their own police officer on staff. Unfortunately, even primary students have been known to bring guns to school, sexually harass their classmates, deal drugs, or viciously attack other students and teachers. Of course, most of these kids need the officer for more than just their own behaviors - they need someone to check up on their home backgrounds, as well. In some cases, violent parents will try to bully the school into overlooking their child's behavior.
I myself have probably risked lawsuits by holding a child back from attacking another, or by peeling one fighter away from the fight. I've tried to maintain as little physical contact as possible, but I am not going to tolerate kids fighting while their classmates gather and chant "fight, fight, fight". Fortunately, such incidents have been few and far between. I also immediately wrote up what happened and turned the issue over to administration.
Kids are indeed feral when they fight, and they often don't know how to get themselves back under control. Many "street" kids live by a code of vengeance and honor that differs greatly from the type of culture and behavior schools try to transmit.
Good teachers learn to recognize the danger signs, and head situations off before they occur. I believe I have learned how to do this, but it took counseling with my administrators after having fights break out on my watch. But it's not easy.
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Stryker, I think a lot of parents fail to discipline their children because they are lazy/tired/overworked. It's a lot easier to just put up with the misbehavior than to deal with it constructively. Plus, it takes some humility to admit your kids are wrong -- we often have our own identities wrapped up in our kids, so when they're wrong, we're wrong. So when a parent is protecting their errant child, it's really themselves they're protecting. IMO, anyway.
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Ketchupqueen, what I am saying is that the chair-throwers and wrist-cutters and sex-offenders need psychological intervention away from the public school setting, in a small group situation.
Alternative education classes in public schools should not have students who are out of voice control. They should be for students who are struggling for one reason or another. Funding is being cut from these separate prgorams, which cost the school systems a bundle, so they are trying to handle them "in-house." Classes like you described are the result.
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My son-in-law drives a school bus for elementary school kids. He was accused of hitting one of the students on his bus last week. Apparently this child (a first grader) had broken his glasses and told his mother my SIL did it when he gave him a bus ticket for bullying another student. The mother got all upset and demanded a conference. There are video cameras on the bus, and the bus supervisor had evidence of the child's bullying and the lack of any abuse on the driver's part. My SIL was actually disappointed that the child confessed to lying and the conference was cancelled. The bus supervisor suspended the child's bus privileges for the rest of the year.
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Battles not won when they were toddlers, IMO, FG.
If a 2,3,4 year old kid doesn't learn that tantrums are not the way to control the world, they surely aren't going to stop. It's easier to take the humiliation of discovering you're not Ruler of All Things when you're little.
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I think there is such a huge difference even in the kids who parents lovingly spank them and the parents who use time out. You can see the discipline and respect while the others are just down right brats. Yes, beating is wrong. But if there isn’t any discipline…. I think the results speak for themselves.
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Elizabeth, that's what was supposed to be happening. There are plenty of places designed for that. Unfortunately, they don't always work like they're supposed to. For instance, my brother went in with one behavioral problem, and now has about 10.
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I have never spanked my children, Jay, and you would have a hard time finding sweeter, more polite ones.
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Discipline is crucial if a child is to feel cared for and safe. Kids aren't stupid - they know that adults are supposed to set limits. When their own parents don't, however, they learn that it doesn't matter what they do. No one cares enough to sit them down and make them civilized. By the time these wild beastlings get to school, they have internalized that they can do whatever they want in order to meet their immediate needs. No one makes them learn patience, considering the needs of others in the family/group, or make up for mistakes.
And even "nice" "good" people allow their toddlers to become little hellions. They don't want to raise their hands or voices to their kids because then the kid cries and throws a tantrum. Guess what? If a child learns that tantrums DON'T WORK, then the tantrums cease.
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Elizabeth, I think you’d be the exception. The norm really seems to be just the opposite. How do you discipline them? And not that I’m accusing you of this in the least, but I have heard parents of total brats say the same things about their little angels. Please don’t get mad at that. I know it sounds bad. I do know there are exceptions. I’m just trying to point out the little angle myth.
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Well, yes. *sighs* There were several sex offenders where I was who used to-- guess what?-- sneak off and have sex with the girls.
One night some boys went on a rampage and decided to go see the girls. They locked their staff in a storage closet, and headed over to the girls' dorm. They broke windows and climbed into girls' rooms. They tried to rape two girls; they screamed, and two girls came running from across the hall and pulled the boys off. They knocked one out with a dictionary and sat on the other until staff ran in to help them. Some of the boys came for my roommate. (She was younger than me and I was very protective of her.) Luckily she was a sound sleeper. They banged on the window, and I went to it, saw that they were trying to pry off the grate and were yelling for her, and opened it a crack to talk to them. I told them in a furious whisper that if they woke her or continued trying to get in, I would make them sorry they were ever born. I guess something in my voice or look worked, because one said, "Come on, it's not worth it," and they moved on. I went to the door, heard the commotion in the halls, and secured our door with a chair under the knob-- not enough to stop anyone really determined, but enough to deter lazy teenagers. The next morning, when I heard the whole story (there's more than what I'm posting), I was glad I had, and glad that Jordan didn't wake up. She would have been scared to death if she had.
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It can be done. You just have to stick to your guns and be firm. My daughter used to throw awful tantrums. We would take her to her room, tell her that she could throw her tantrum there, and let us know when she was done. We'd usually go check with her and "debrief" afterwards. You have to communicate in ways appropriate for your childs' understanding.
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Ketchupqueeen, that sounds like a frightening job.
I reckon different things work with different kids... but, for some reason spanking bothers me. It doesn't seem nessasary in a lot of cases....
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Jay, time outs can be just as (if not more) effective as spankings. I know that my kids aren't angels, but I am pretty sure my daughter would rather have a spanking then a time out most of the time.
Why do you think that physical punishment is more effective (and do you have any evidence)?
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One of the most important things is never to say you are going to do something that you don't do. If you tell them that they will have a time-out if they throw the peas, and do not give them a time-out, they will learn that they might be able to get away woth throwing peas.
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Jenny, I'm with you. My daughter is nearly 3. She has spectacular tantrums. And she can have them somewhere else, usually the bedroom.
At her preschool, when the kids have fits, they are given a space to totally melt down. Then when they're ready to rejoin the living, they're welcomed back happily. It kind of takes all the air out of the fun of tantrumming when you miss story time, or centers time, or music time. By the time the kids are school age, it's a matter of pride that they don't melt down in public anymore. "Only babies do that."
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Mostly from watching people at church and out in public. Anymore though it seems that kids know they can’t be spanked in public so they’re total brats. And it’s getting so bad anymore because sooo many people don’t discipline at all. It’s always funny to se some kid acting up, parent tells them to stop, kid acts up more, parent ignores, kid breaks something, parents yells for half a second and kid runs off to get into trouble somewhere else. Once, back in college while working in the ER, this kid was running up and down the hall. One time he ran past me and I grabbed him by the arm and told him in a firm voice you can not run in here. Mom promptly came and yelled at me for disciplining her kid. I promptly told her as long as the kid isn’t running in the hall I won’t have to. The mom of course wanted to try and get me in trouble, but the staff told her to get back in her room. Ha! Unreal. I guess to be really honest about the subject it’s not spanking or non spanking that is the problem (even thought I think spanking is far more effective), it’s the basic non existence of any type of discipline.
[ March 04, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
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"Alleged tantrum" is a weird phrase. "Now, on the day of your alleged tantrum... Your Honor! He's pouting, you all saw it! Permission to treat the child as hostile."
quote: And Jay, many states use corporal punishment in school.
Elizabeth. Still? I thought it was pretty much outlawed, or if technically legal avoided due to liability issues. Morbo
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