posted
I agree too, but you just can't win. If you don't discipline kids, they turn into hellions, but, how can it be done? It's either be too strict, like a fascist regeme and end up with a rebellious angry kid anyway, or end up with something like Running With Scissors Where the kids are allowed to do ANYTHING and the parents act like best friends that are like, "Sure you can do drugs, date 40 year old men and wear skimpy outfits." Either way is alarming and disturbing.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I want to see the application when the kid applies for a job. You know the question, "Have you ever been convicted of a felony, if so, please explain the circumstances..."
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: Where the states stand on corporal punishment: Alabama--Legal Alaska--Illegal Arizona--Legal Arkansas--Legal California--Illegal Colorado--Legal Connecticut--Illegal Delaware--Illegal
posted
You are welcome. I am not sure if the thread is still around, but last year Boon had quite a bit of difficulty with her son in school.
Isn't it ironic that teachers can be freaked out about separating kids in a fight, but it is OK to spank them?
"Kansas--Legal"
Wouldn't Farmgirl's friend, who was using a nonviolent restraint, be covered under this?(if he works in Kansas as well)
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know my school district (Moore, OK) does legally allow corporal punishment. I've never seen it happen, and every teacher I've heard talk about it has said that they would never ever use it. But its there if needed...
Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hmm. I'm not sure what else the school could have done at that point - sounds like he was extremely violent. I hope his parents seek some form of help for him.
I'm with Jenny and the others on tantrums. My kids threw them, every kids throws them; it's a normal part of child development. However, when they did throw them they were sent (or carried at times) to their rooms and told not to come out till they were calm. We're always tried to teach them that expressing anger or outrage is ok, but that it has to be expressed appropriately.
I don't think there has to be a choice between spanking and no discipline whatsoever. There are gentle methods that are just as effective for giving a child tools to help them get along in the world. It takes more work, but it's worth it to both child and parent.
posted
I have called the cops on kids before, when I worked as a youth worker in a group home for kids ages 6-12. Liz was right--kids can be DANGEROUS because they have little knowledge of limits, danger, mortality, etc. Their concept of time is very different from an adult's. They are, as Liz said, FERAL. It's scary and dangerous, both for the child and others involved (adults, other kids, etc). While I don't agree with arresting a kid, I do agree with taking control of the situation for the safety of all involved. What this kid did...I've seen it firsthand countless times. It's what I used to work with for behavioral management. The kid needs help, and I sure hope he gets it.
I also think that discipline does NOT equal corporal punishment.
quote: Wouldn't Farmgirl's friend, who was using a nonviolent restraint, be covered under this?(if he works in Kansas as well)
Elizabeth -- it might well be still technically legal in my state, but I have not heard of any school here in this area that still allows it. Most of them have done away with it in their own school policy.
Perhaps Screechowl knows of schools around that still use corporal punishment - probably more of the westerly, rural schools would be my guess, but I sure don't know of any.
quote: I surely wouldn't call it a "tantrum". Tantrums are what toddlers have. A 4' tall 8 year old is not a toddler.
AMEN!
You know, my oldest is now in school, and he has had some mild behavioral problems. And I guess I have gotten a little annoyed when his teacher has suggested things I could do to help settle these issues and how he has improved since the beginning of the year because of the efforts *she* has taken....
You know, some kids really are more difficult than others, behaviorally speaking. Sometimes there is an actual pathology involved. You can't always chalk it up to bad parenting. But it is difficult not to pass judgement on the parents when you see an out-of-control child. I am trying to be more sensitive to this. :/
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Beverly, that is a really good point. I have mostly worked with behaviorally challenged students, and I notice a trend from other teachers and the principal to immediately assume that bad parenting is involved.
As for a teacher giving you tips, that would be annoying. However, she or he might have some good strategies that work in the classroom. I would hope they would want to share those with you, without the condescending crapola. What works at home might not work in school, and vice versa.
However, there are manty clueless parents. One of my favorite lines, recently, was this one:
Parent of failing 5th grader who falls asleep in class:
"But she does her homework! We are really good about it. At 9:00, the television goes off, and they all buckle down and do their work."
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: You know, some kids really are more difficult than others, behaviorally speaking. Sometimes there is an actual pathology involved. You can't always chalk it up to bad parenting. But it is difficult not to pass judgement on the parents when you see an out-of-control child.
Thank you.
Spanking does not equal discipline. On the other hand, spanking does not equal child abuse, and spanking is not totally ineffective. Neither is it always inappropriate. We prefer not to spank, and we rarely do so. But sometimes it is the only thing my kids will respond to. I believe other people when they tell me that they have wonderful angels without ever having had to spank them. But it is not evidence to me that spanking is ineffectual. Rather, it is evidence that not all kids respond to the same stimulus.
Many times kids who act up do so because of a lack of parenting, but this is not always true. We don't get too much of this anymore, because the girls' behavioral issues have really calmed down, but for a while last year we used to get a lot of comments and hints that our daughters got into trouble because we had raised them poorly, from people who didn't know their background or what the heck they were talking about. One woman even told Cor this fall that "sometimes you just need to tell her 'no'"! *speechless*
It's the whole walk a mile in another person's shoes thing. If you are not a parent, you really have only theoretical knowledge. But even if youare one, you really only know what works or doesn't with your own children. It's naïve to believe that the same strategies work for all.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
That kid needs a good smack to the head. Sick that teachers/principles are so handicapped in enforcing anything that they had to call the police. *sigh*
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I dunno. Police are at least trained in how to do things right, one would hope. I wouldn't want my kid arrested, but I also wouldn't want my kid smacked around by a teacher.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Telperion, being out of control is often as scary, or scarier, as witnessing someone who is out of control.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: As for a teacher giving you tips, that would be annoying. However, she or he might have some good strategies that work in the classroom. I would hope they would want to share those with you, without the condescending crapola. What works at home might not work in school, and vice versa.
Yeah, the problem was the advice was inane. My thought was, "What sort of a mother do you think I am that I don't already do this?" If the advice were something unique that had never occured to me, I would have been thankful for it. Instead, it came out feeling like an insult.
Edit: Oh, let me tell you what the advice was. Our son gets intensely upset sometimes, and he gets very loud. He seems to feel like the world is coming to an end and he needs help RIGHT NOW! Her advice to me was not to always bail him out but to calmly talk him through these things and let him figure out what to do.
When our son gets upset, I always keep my cool. I never get antsy or try to "bail him out" without letting him work through it. We expect a lot from him. Sometimes, though, he gets in such a state that the only thing that will snap him out of it is something shocking. At those times, I may shout to get his attention, take him by the shoulders or what have you. In extreme cases (which thankfully haven't happened in a long time) I find the only thing that will actually work is to swat him to get him to stop for just a moment and listen. But that is always a last resort after everything else doesn't work.
posted
Police training or lack thereof is another thread's worth of derailing.
But Telp - my cousin (in law) observed the other day - "It's wild, having kids. Everything I ever thought I'd say or do either went out the window or did a complete 180."
Of course, he ended that thought with, "wait until you have kids." But fortunately I wasn't trying to give him advice on parenting at the time.
posted
Icarus, your post made me think of the reaction I have had while walking my dog.
And... I know. Not the same thing as a child!
Basically our pup is about a year old, a German Shephard / Kelpie mix. She's a decent size, fiercely intelligent, very strong, stubborn as all get out, mischevious, playful, loving and wont to misbehave at the worst possible moment. I am 5' 2" and kinda slight. The thing is, I can handle my dog. I've been to training classes. The collar we use is RSPCA approved - as are the training methods. She is, for the most part, obedient, but she is still a puppy.
I have had so many people stop me at the park while I am walking her to inform me what I am doing wrong with her. Even when their advice goes against everything that the RSPCA advise. Even though half of them have never owned a dog. Or own a maltese.
I guess the thing is that people have an amazing capacity to judge and to interfere with situations where they quite frankly don't have a clue.
That's not to say if I were dragging my dog around by a chain (or, to bring it back to kids, obviously physically abusing my child) that people shouldn't interfere.
But it often seems people are happy to intervene simply because the situation is not how they would handle it - regardless of whether they have actually *had* to handle a similar situation or not.
posted
I worked at a "last chance" after-school program at the Y in Richmond. About 1/2 of our 4th-8th graders had been kicked out of every other after-school program in town, including other Ys. Unbelievably, the only method of discipline the Y advocates is redirection (never mind that that's not a method of discipline at all and cannot possibly work with 90 kids and 6 adults). They don't even let their staff use time-outs. We could do referrals or suspensions, but we had a semester quota of 2 (that's 2 total, not 2 per child).
I cannot tell you how much this crippled us. Let me give y'all and example. One of our 5th graders with emotional problems was having a bad day. He lost his temper and grabbed a stool and went after another kid with it. I am 5'4'' and he was already my height at 11. Instead of redirecting him, I ran after him, grabbed the stool and stared him down. He was angry and frustrated and kept pulling on the stool. I said, in a quiet, low voice, "Dude [I used his name, but don't feel comfortable using it now], I'm going to count to three. When I say three, you are going to let go of the stool and sit down." I counted and he let go and sat down. This was not the first incident with this kid. I know just how that teacher probably felt - she wanted to protect the other children and the kid going off and probably had very little training on how to do so.
BTW, I didn't think the parents of my problem kids were bad (unless they gave me a reason, like having a screaming match in the parking lot in front of their child and his friends) - I just assumed that they were inexperienced. I am lucky that I've worked with children of all ages and many different emotional and behavioral issues - when I finally have children, I'll be able to apply that knowledge.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know about kids, but time-outs actually work very well on our dogs. The way it works is that the dog has to go somewhere (like under the table) where she can't interact with anyone, and has to stay there for 2-30 minutes, depending on the seriousness of the infraction. If the dog comes out before we call her, we glare at her, bare our teeth, and order her to get back under the table, which she does.
Both our dogs HATE this so much that we don't have to do it very often. The words "under the table" are enough to inspire a cessation of bad behavior.
We have NEVER hit our dogs.
[ March 06, 2005, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think "1,2,3" works because it is assertive. You're basically communicating that the current direction is not acceptable, but you are also giving the child a new direction.. AND an opportunity to save face. And you are not acting submissive.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think you're right, Jenny. I also count a lot in the classroom, when things are getting silly or out of control. I just say "One.." and they usually buck right up. It cracks me up, actually, and sometimes I have busted out laughing.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The difference I’ve noticed in “respectful” kids is not related to what form of discipline the parents use, but whether they use it consistently. Has anyone else heard a mom or dad go through this routine: “You’d better stop that or you’re going to get a time out. <behavior continues> Do you want a time out? I mean it – you’re going to get a time out. <behavior continues> If you do that once more you’re going to get a time out. <behavior continues> Do you want a time out?” <repeat indefinitely>.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yep. As soon as they understand you, I think kids are old enough to learn that actions have consequences. For instance, my daughter loves to grab my glasses off my face. She has done it so often that they are bent out of shape, and now fall off easily of their own accord. Anyway, the other night she finished nursing and started trying to grab my glasses. I repeatedly took her hand away (and grabbed my glasses back, if she had been quick), and told her not to do that. However, she began to giggle as she did it, obviously thinking that it is a fun game. So I simply told her that it is not okay to grab glasses, and if she did it one more time, she was going in the playpen. (It's not her favorite place, but she has toys to play with, and it's not going to kill her to stay in a few minutes.) She did it again, and promptly went in the playpen. She wasn't thrilled about that, and so after a few minutes when she stood up and held up her arms to be removed, I reminded her that she was in the playpen because she had grabbed my glasses, and asked, "Are you going to grab my glasses again?" She solemnly shook her head no, and you know what? She didn't do it again that night.
I intend to keep this up for as long as it takes.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know exactly what the RSPCA guidlines are. However, there are some people that train dogs that try to do it by no negative reinforcement whatsoever. (not even telling the dog no in a stern tone of voice) With some breeds this works, because they are so sensitive to their humans. With other breeds it doesn't.
I'm personally not against choke chains and prong collars. Prong collars even though they look far worse than choke chains are actually far more humane. The two work on separate principles. Prong collars don't actually "pinch" skin, even though they are mistakenly called pinch collars. They work basically by using more sensitive pressure points in the dogs neck to achieve control. This is far kinder IMO than a choke chain which cuts off a dogs air supply, when used incorrectly.
Some dogs can be trained on a flat buckle collar without any difficulty. However if you get a high energy breed or a large breed puppy that can knock over small children with its tail. It is better for public safety to use a stronger method of correction in order to keep the humans around you safe. Mastiffs, pit bulls and bull terriers, have very little feeling in their necks. They've been bred that way. So you might have to use much stronger corrections on those breeds than your sensitive border collies.
posted
Dana, you are right. No matter what the form of discipline, if the initial consequence is not followed through, it doesn't matter. Be prepared to follow through on whatever it is you say. Period.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
We used to use "choke chains" on our beasties, but we've since discovered a thing that works even better for them. It's called a "promise collar" and it works like a horse halter. It has two looped straps, one behind the ears and one over the muzzle. The leash is fastened just below the dog's chin, so you're controlling the direction in which the head moves. Where the head goes, the rest of the dog follows. I have found that our dogs, both notorious pullers, can't pull at all when wearing these collars.
The only problem is that the older dog, originally trained to walk near her owner without a leash, is not crazy about restraints in general and this collar in particular. So, she descends into a deeply insulted pout whenever we put it on. (This dog is the best pouter I have ever seen, and I honestly believe she does it partly to make us feel guilty.) The younger dog doesn't much care, since this was the collar I used for her obedience class, so she associates it with positive things like treats, car rides, and walks.
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
Scott, were you laughing because it wasn't permanent? She's only 11 months old, temptation is hard. But she did put her hand down when I told her not to grab the doctor's glasses today (she was reaching for them). She's learning. So there. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It doesn't matter that she was a "hellion", she doesn't need to be arrested. How is she ever going to trust police officers?
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
(one more comment on those head lead collars.) While they do work amazingly well, it is possible for a dog to get whiplash from them if they are used improperly. And too often they are used in place of actual training to get the dog to behave. So I'm not opposed to them, but I'm wary, if that makes any sense.
... as for the kid... wow... I would have had to have been there to see the tantrum in order to make a judgement call one way or the other.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
Where the kids are allowed to do ANYTHING and the parents act like best friends that are like, "Sure you can do drugs, date 40 year old men and wear skimpy outfits."
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
