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"When my daughter was on chemo, I prayed every day that she would just go ahead and die, it was so awful."
- a comment made to my mother at church
"It's because you had herpes when you were younger, and now it's coming back."
- a comment made to me by someone who had asked how my treatment was going and I answered it was delayed because of mouth sores (which are very common in chemo patients and not normally viral cold sores)
"Oh, my (brother, mother, grandfather, neighbor, second cousin thrice removed) had colon cancer do. He/She died from it."
*sigh*
I just got off the phone with my husband, the wife of a general contractor we had done a lot of work for just died. We knew them well, had been to Christmas parties at their home, that type of thing. She had the same cancer I did, in the same location. The only difference is that hers had already metastasized.
I'm wondering if I should go to the visitation. Wes is definitely going, but should I? I would like to pay my respects, but the widower knows I have cancer, will it be painful for him, do you think, to see me surviving what killed his wife? I don't want my presence to upset him.
I just wish I could crawl into a hole and not hear anything about cancer for a while. It seems to be everywhere I turn.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I wish I knew what to tell you, I really do.
I know we love you around here for more than your cancer, without a doubt. If you knew the person and thought fondly of her for who she was, instead of what she suffered from, perhaps paying your respects in person might be best. If she was just a casual acquaintance, perhaps only your husband should go.
There might be a bit of kindred spirit strength your husband could share with this fellow.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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As to the visitation, I don't think it would be a problem if you went. I would think it would be harder on you compared to whatever marginal upset your presence would cause him over what he must be feeling now.
This is going to be horrible for him no matter what. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Belle, if I were this widower, I would not be thinking of WHAT killed my wife at all. I'd be much more preoccupied with the fact of her absence, not with what caused it.
I certainly wouldn't begrudge the survivor. (Speaking entirely without experience, etc...)
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I agree with Dag. I'll add that it would be fine to decide based on what would make you feel the best. I don't think you really could add much to the grief he must already be feeling. On the other hand, knowing your situation, he should be able to understand your absence if you really don't feel up to going, emotionally.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I wouldn't go. I don't know the widower, but seeing someone who survived something that killed a loved one would be difficult for me.
Xavier, I don't think Belle is judging them, but that is a very upsetting and hurtful thing to say. When Aerin was in the NICU, I would hear about babies who died and it would terrify me. Even now I have a hard time hearing about them. I guess it's nice that people want to connect with Belle, but I don't think it's right to mention death to a cancer patient unless he/she brings it up first.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Belle, In a strange tangental way I think I understand exactly what you mean. My problem is very very different. My husband and I have been unable to have children. Still even though the problem is different, peoples lack of tact and understanding is pretty similar. I can't tell you how many times over the years people have made tactless hurtful comments. There are the people who assume that we have a chosen not to have children and take it on themselves to persuade us that we are really missing out. Then there are the people who, on learning we can't have children, ask us to babysit their's for free assuming that this will some how compensate. The list of clueless comments is nearly infinite. Even my Mother, who I know would never intensionally do anything to hurt anyone, has on at least one occasion brought me to tears.
I've come to recognize that these people rarely mean any harm. Usually they're doing the best they can to be sympathetic, they just don't get it. I can't really blame them for not anticipating how their comments might hurt me, sometimes these things even take me by surprise. Understanding that makes it easier to forgive people for their tactlessness, but it never makes it hurt any less.
Over the years, I've noticed that the only people who really know what to say are the people who've struggled with infertility themselves and sometimes they don't even get it right.
Sometimes I've wondered if I can ever learn to comfort anyone without having lived through it myself. I know that I have a particular knack for saying the wrong thing myself. I want to be kind, caring and compassionate. I don't want to say stupid things that hurt people. But I also don't want to suffer every possible injury in order to have empathy and compassion for others. So I muddle along hoping that I can learn compassion for others from those few things I haved suffered through and praying that people will be able to see my good intentions despite by sometimes stupid words.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Xavier, I don't think Belle is judging them, but that is a very upsetting and hurtful thing to say. When Aerin was in the NICU, I would hear about babies who died and it would terrify me. Even now I have a hard time hearing about them. I guess it's nice that people want to connect with Belle, but I don't think it's right to mention death to a cancer patient unless he/she brings it up first.
Oh I agree completely, just trying to express that those people don't mean any harm.
I think it is a natural human reaction upon hearing of a person's unfortunate circumstance to relate something from your own life to show that person that you understand what they are going through. In the case of cancer, just about everyone knows someone very close to them who had cancer, and so that is what immediately springs to that persons mind to use as a way of connecting with the person they are talking to. It generally won't occur to that person that talking about their relative/friend who died from their cancer isn't going to be recieved well.
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I personally think that if you feel up to going to the funeral, that it would mean a lot to the widower. He knows what you are going through and would not begrudge you a better outcome than his wife's, I'm sure.
As for the stupid things people say...I think your title of the thread says it all. Some people just lack a brain-to-mouth filter and it's just plain sad.
At my father's funeral, the priest told the congregation how my dad wasn't in heaven. I realize he was stating a theologically correct position from the teachings of the Catholic church, and he was making a point about how the living should pray for the souls of the departed, and something else in there too. But honestly, my initial reaction was one of wanting to do violence upon his nasty self for being so insensitive. Even if what he said was true, it didn't need to be said at my father's funeral.
(NOTE to clarify, my father was not a notable "sinner" so it wasn't really meant as a commentary on how he'd lived his life. It really was a statement of theology. I just thought it was a particulalry crappy thing to say at that moment.)
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Belle, want me to go slap 'em for you? (Not that I think you would.) It seems sometimes that we are all sort of flailing around trying to make a connection without poking people in the eye. I'm sorry that they made it harder for you.
Bob - not that it is likely helpful now, but the priest was not theologically correct to say that. I volunteer to go slap him, too.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
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((Belle))
I don't know what to say so I geuss I'll be quiet. A hug I think says all thats needs to be said.
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"I'm wondering if I should go to the visitation. Wes is definitely going, but should I? I would like to pay my respects, but the widower knows I have cancer, will it be painful for him, do you think, to see me surviving what killed his wife? I don't want my presence to upset him."
I think you should go, as long as YOU are OK with going. I would not worry about the husband.
When I was sick, my husband's cousin died of cancer, while I survived my A.D.E.M.
I felt extremely self-conscious about being alive.
While I knew in my heart that some family members might have been thinking "how come she gets to stay and he had to go?" I know it was nothing they MEANT to think, if that makes sense.
In my experience, people are really happy to see that people have survived, or are surviving, something their loved one didn't. I really, really think he will be happy for you and Wes. How many people who start fundraisers, walks for breast cancer, charities for children with AIDS, do you think were not affected by the diseases?
All I am saying is, go if YOU want to. There will be no one pulling for you more steadfastly than he.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Ick. I'm sorry you're having to deal with that kind of thing.
I've been trying to put together a workshop for church on the theme "What to say when people are grieving." The feeling of not knowing what to say and then babbling something accidentally hurtful seems to be a common occurance. The problem is all my outlines for the workshop seem to devolve in to lists of what not to say. I think I could fill a three day seminar on "idiotic things that people have told me people have told them when their <insert relative here> died/they got sick/they lost their job."
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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dana, One of the problems here is that the right thing to say can be a highly individual thing. A good friend of mine had a young child die. The following summer, a neighbor came door to door from the school taking a census of children who would be attending school the coming fall. It reminder her of the the daughter who had died and the grade she would be entering. She wished that the nieghbor had mentioned the daughters name so she could talk about the child she was missing. A few years later this friend was doing the school census and went to the home a family that had had a child recently die. Remembering her own feelings, she asked about the child and had the mother blow up at her for being so insensitive.
Go figure.
While somethings are clearly best left unsaid, I'm not sure there is anything you could teach people to say that would be right in every situation.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I should add that the saying the right thing isn't just a person to person thing, it can also be a minute to minute thing.
Sometimes when your suffering what you want is to have someone validate what your feeling. You want someone to say, "Yeah that really sucks, you have every right to be grumpy, angry, or sad about it", and somedays what you really need is for someone to give hope. You want someone to say "My aunt had cancer and it was tough but she beat it. It's been ten years now and she's healthy and strong and able to do all the things she used to do".
If someone comes up with the right words on the right day it can really help. But if what you need is commiseration and someone offers the bright outlook it can make you want to stuff a sock down their throat.
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I agree, Rabbit. I wonder if it might be a good workshop to have where one learns how to accept comments gracefully? To sort ou the things Belle is talking about.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Some people can be really insensitive. To me, the "I know a person who died" speech seems really selfish because they aren't trying to empathize at all but rather include themselves: "I went through this too!". If they wanted to be supportive or sympathetic, there are a thousand other ways. All I can say is the obvious but true: don't give them a second thought. Focus on YOU.
As to the visitation, that's a tough situation. How do you think YOU will handle it? Your emotional health should be top priority. I personally wouldn't attend (just in the case your fears are confirmed), but definitely make a phone call and/or write a letter of support and sympathy.
Note the capital letters: stay strong, your physical and emotional health is #1, your family&friends is #2 and everything else is just background.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Don't worry guys, I have no intention of telling people that there's one perfect thing to say in every situation. It's more about listening and thinking before you speak. And not avoiding/ignoring friends because you don't know what to say.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I'm really glad you said that, Rabbit, because I think it's really true.
Still, I'd like to take a class in how to at least try to open a conversation, what physical cues can help indicate if it's time to shut up...I guess it's just learning to be effectively sensitive. I know someone who is awesome at visiting people in pain. I still don't know what X factor he has that makes him so good at it, but he really is amazing. It's a gift.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: And not avoiding/ignoring friends because you don't know what to say.
Very important advice... I almost lost one of my most valued friends over this very thing. I am very glad we managed to work through it.
Belle, I'd just like to add that, though I don't often address you directly, I have always appreciated your presence here and have been watching/pulling/praying for you since you made your struggle known.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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When my Mom had a stroke, our preacher told her, 3 days later, that he once knew a woman who survived 17 strokes, so they aren't really all that bad.
sigh
I wish you didn't have to deal with such insensitive people Belle. I understand how much that hurts.
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Liz, I think that kind of workshop would be ill advised. Like I said at first, understanding helps you to forgive, but the comments still hurt.
Have you ever noticed that when you have a sore toe, everyone seems to step on it. If you recognize that your toe is just extrasensative so that the usual bumps that happen all the time hurt alot, it helps you not to get angry at people. But it doesn't keep your toe from hurting. The samething applies when you are in emotional pain.
dana, I know you would never attempt such a thing. I was merely musing over how difficult it is. It's something I'm trying to learn but so far all I've learned is how hard it is and how far I have to go.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I'm going to meet Wes and we'll go to the visitation tonight. We cannot make the funeral, because it's tomorrow and Wes is at the fire station. We'll go in, express our condolences, and then leave. If anyone asks me how I'm doing I'll say I'm fine and leave it at that, because I don't want to start a conversation that's about me and my treatment.
These people were very important to us, we owe them a lot. When Wes first started his business, this contractor took a chance on him and we wound up being his exclusive plumbing subcontractor for five years, and he was our main source of income. He also gave Wes a lot of advice and served as a mentor. His wife, the deceased, ran the business office so both of us had a lot of contact with her. They were more than just merely business acquaintances. I really think it's appropriate for both of us to pay our respects.
Chances are likely that no one will even bring up cancer, I'll make sure I don't mention it, and like I said, if anyone else brings it up to me I'll just make it a non-issue.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Rabbit, I don't see how it is ill-advised, really. I get the toe analogy, I just dont see why helping somone receive comments would be ill advised. I never said anything about that taking the pain away. It would be more of a support group kind of thing for people to share comments that have been made, how they took the comments, and how they could be interpreted.
Belle, good luck. One of the things I heard afterwards(and had help receiving) was how, when I was sick, my principal was really worried all weekend. She was so worried because she was afraid I had meningitis, and that it would have been a huge, schoolwide scare. It hurt like heck to hear that. But when I thought about it, and talked to people who knew her, they assured me she was worried about me, but that, being a principal, having a contagious disease on board was pretty frightening. It made me wonder how many other people were woried as much for themselves as for me, but I figure, I probably would have been concerned, too. Still, it felt awful.
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Wow, Elizabeth, it would never occur to me that expressed concern over exposure of hundreds of kids to meningitis could be taken wrong. I'll have to do some real thinking about this.
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Wow, Theca, that is mean, and hurts my feelings.
When she said that to me, and the way she said it, made me feel that I was of no importance, but that my POSSIBLE illness was going to cause her problems.
I will think twice about EVER(sent before finishing) sharing my near death experience.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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I wasn't trying to be mean, I just didn't understand. I guess I still don't quite get it but I'm sorry. I said I'd think about it and that's what I'm doing.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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My principal and tact are not often close companions.
It is a very, very difficult position to be in to be potentially contagious. It made me very empathetic to people with AIDS, or to anyone else who is "defined by" their illness.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Elizabeth, I think my surprise was due to my field of work. I mean, if I collapsed from something infectious like chicken pox or mumps or TB or possible meningitis, the people I work with would rightly be much more concerned with how many people I had put at risk before my collapse than they would be concerned about me. After all, I'd already be getting treatment. The exposed people would not. A principle would serve the same function in a school, to some extent, so I would expect her primary concern to be the students and the possible exposure.
So all I mean is that I need to consider that laypeople don't have the same way of looking at diseases than I do. If this type of thought process can be seen as hurtful or uncaring by laypeople than that is something I need to keep in mind and try to understand
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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No, I totally understand, and my reaction was emotional, as it was when my principal said that. Of course it would have been frightening for her. It just wasn't what i was expecting to hear, months later, when she said how she was worried all weekend, and then said why.
I just felt dirty or something. (only way I can explain it)
Of course that would be where her thoughts took her, and her worries. I guess I just didn't need to hear them.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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(((Elizabeth))) I had to read Theca's post about three times to be sure she didn't mean it sarcastically, so I totally get how you read it that way. Eventually I figured out what she did mean though; once it made sense to me from the perspective of a doctor self-examining over "bedside manner," though, it clicked in.
-o-
quote:Originally posted by prolixshore: When my Mom had a stroke, our preacher told her, 3 days later, that he once knew a woman who survived 17 strokes, so they aren't really all that bad.
sigh
*nod*
When my father had his quadruple bypass surgery (in early 2000), someone came up to me and reassured me thusly: "Oh, don't worry, my father had a bypass surgery and lived for seven more years!"
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In my opinion, practically this whole country needs sensitivity training. I don't have any advice but wanted to put in that I am sorry for what you are going through.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Thanks, Icarus. It is all about perspective, really. It seems so obvious that, of course, I would see thins from the perspective of potentially harmed children. But I was not infectious, and I guess I just didn't find that comment supportive. However, did my principal have ANY CLUE she might be making me feel bad? No. When you are "there," in that vulnerable place, logic does not necessarily come into play.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I guess what Liz was saying (correct me if I am wrong ) was that the way her principal expressed the concern....as if it didn't matter so much that Liz almost died ... at least she didn't expose any kids.
Not that the principal was wrong worrying about it, but it made it seem almost as if she didn't care about Liz at all, only the possible exposure.
And then relief, even though Liz had almost died....because at least the school didn't have to deal with an outbreak. As if she had any control over what she caught.
Not a good way to express concern over the health of a friend, you know. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Yes, Kwea. Here is another example. A student who had been having intense academic problems, as well as family issues, was in the spotlight. Then, the student told me she was moving out of state(we had had concerns over neglect). I called down to the principal, expecting concern, or even an "Oh no." The response when I called downstairs? "Can you hear me dancing down here?" I was horrified. But, for her, it was a big headache instantly cured.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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my father-in-law had bypass surgery in 1981 and he's still alive, active and enjoying life. (Hoping that is more encouraging than a mere seven years)
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Icky, my dad had quadruple bypass surgery in September, almost exactly a month after we hung out with you and Cor down in Disney...it was extremely unexpected, and terrifying to boot.
Quadruple bypass is hard to wrap your head around. I know my sister and I were very scared during the procedure -- even though they're done with a lot more frequency these days, it was pretty intense to contemplate.
BUT he was up and walking around the very next day, AND out of the hospital within the week afterwards. And he seems healthier now than I've seen him my whole life (given that he had a heart attack in '89, and nearly missed one this time around before the quadruple)
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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My father had a massive coronary when he was 42. (my age!). He had a(double, I think) bypass about ten years later. I remember him saying that, to the doctors, it was a very simple operation with a very high success rate. My dad recovered from the operation(which, to us, and to him, was NOT simple!)
He is 70, and fit as a fiddle. He still kicks my behind in tennis as he always has, and is in beter shape than any of us. He drinks like a fish, eats Wonder bread and butter, and generally has not taken the best care of himself food-wise. But he is just fine. Without the bypass, they are quite sure he would not be fine, or even around at all. (this is not to tell your dad to drink up and slather on the butter, just to say my dad is doing well and his lifestyle is still much as it was)
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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It went fine. The widower asked me how I was doing, wanted to know how chemo was going, and chided my husband for not keeping him informed about my progress. When I told him I was very sorry for his loss he said "Don't be. She's out of pain and in paradise and I'll see her again."
We stayed about 15 minutes, speaking to other people Wes knew, and then we left and got some food and came home.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Belle, I've missed you. Haven't been around much, but I'm glad to hear this little trial went okay. I'm sorry about people being insensitive. Stuff like that really bothers me, but I guess it is part of life. *hugs*
Bypass surgery story... My papa had a quadruple bypass (that turned into a triple because the surgery took too long and they feared for him) about 15 years ago. He's also a diabetic, which is an added complication, but he's doing great. Healthy as can be. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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) was that the way her principal expressed the concern....as if it didn't matter so much that Liz almost died ... at least she didn't expose any kids.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It is. 
