posted
When I posted about a possibly pregnant girl, people cracked jokes about the possibility she was faking it to get out of work. Rhaegar didn't claim to be describing his own dream, he was describing somebody else's. As such, I don't see anything truly rude about responding with humor. In addition, I thought many of the replies, including (but not limited to) ak's, BtL's, Poly's, and Kat's, were really quite thoughtful and took the post seriously.
Ed_Sauron, you have a point, insofar as many of us are unprepared to deal with the possibility that these dreams are manifestation of some true spiritual phenomenon, but I wouldn't go so far as to agree with your statement that there is nothing anybody here can say that could be helpful to Rhaegar or this girl. The posts I referred to are examples to the contrary. They sugests hypotheses, and base their advice on the possibility that one of these hypotheses is true.
-o-
Regarding the humor . . . appropriate or otherwise, many of the posts here made me laugh out loud. (And not having seen Boondock Saints, my interpretation of Frisco's line coincided with Tom's, and I thought it was a brilliant line. It's a shame you had to ruin it by admitting it was a quote! )
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"I think it is very possible the dreams are real."
I'm willing to entertain that possibility, as well, Anna. The difference is that she also claims to see these things, according to Rhaegar, while she's AWAKE.
If she's telling the truth, then, and if mystic tigers are NOT appearing to her, she's mentally ill.
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posted
Things like this don't happen in our culture but they are rather ordinary quotidian facets of life in many other cultures in the world.
Perception is an active event, in which the individual is involved. What you perceive very much depends on who you are and what your brain is trained to see, quite as much as it does what is actually there to be seen.
Here in the west, when sane people have such experiences, they usually keep them private, because there is no category of our understanding in which they easily fall. Are you insane? No. Okay, then did you take hallucinatory drugs? No. Okay then you must be insane. No.
The derision shown is not rudeness so much as it is the standard reaction of any system of perception/understanding to something outside its ken. I expect Celts or whoever would similarly dismiss perceptions which didn't fit inside their own systems.
I don't dismiss them mainly because I am a scientist, and we are always alert for understanding outside the boundaries of the currently known, and I have been alerted to the possibility of interesting observations to be made in this manner.
[ November 19, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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posted
The tiger has no stripes to answer oyur question. And what I was really hoping to get out of this thread is whether or not theire are any myths in any culture alluding to a white tiger. Pesonally I believe her, and in this kind of thing.
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quote:Things like this don't happen in our culture but they are rather ordinary quotidian facets of life in many other cultures in the world.
They happen in our culture more often than you’d think. It’s actually fairly common, particularly after a close family member dies, for people to have a waking “vision.” I’ve spent a fair amount of pastoral care time assuring people that they’re not crazy, and that what they’ve experienced is perfectly normal.
If the tiger isn’t telling her to do anything, she’s not disturbed by it, and if the experience doesn’t interfere with her life in any way (ie: she’s not getting distracted while driving, doesn’t have a problem distinguishing between what is physically present in the room and what is in her vision, etc) then it’s probably nothing to worry about. If it does start to interfere, then it’s time to see a spiritual director and/or a psychologist. Preferably both.
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So, um, Anne Kate, are you saying that it's more likely Harvey the Invisible White Tiger is following this girl around than either of the other two options?
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Rhys Ifans? He's one of my favorite comic actors. Great in both "The Replacements" and "Notting Hill" at being the supporting actor that makes the whole thing click together. In fact because he's a such crazy Welshman I've been considering using his name as a basis for naming a dog in my first Cardigan Welsh Corgi litter.
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I was edgy earlier this morning. Sorry if I came across bossy. You guys, for the most part, are all fine with me. I guess I'm just tired of seeing the world through the cynical/realist perspective (which my husband has in spades). In particular, I have always held the deepest respect for Tom D. and Bob the Lawyer. Usually I am right on board with you guys. It's just that every once in a while, I must indulge in metaphor and poetry. And I get frustrated by the prosaic people who treat me as if I'm mad when I do. Hence my championship of a girl who sees mystical tigers.
At any rate, tiger seems a powerful word to choose when describing a beast. Here's some potential interpretations of these symbols that come to MY mind: White can be death or truth or purity, according to your culture. Blood and sand - life and starkness. Spent life? Violence - conflict either in the soul or emotions. Black Knight reaching his end - destruction of old ways of thought, loss of a loved one, vanquishing negative energy. Nordic/elvish patterns - a longing for beauty, connecting with ancestry, fascination with a particular mythology. Tiger/Predatory Cat - beauty mixed with ferocity and danger.
It does seem rather like an alter ego created for one's own soul-protection. I, too, wonder about such an early appearance in childhood. What is this tiger and its accompanying symbols protecting her from? Since your friend is using the language of symbols and myth, it may be that she is doing her soulwork in this way. I think she should be encouraged to stay with the visions, record them, and think about them. When do they occur? How does she feel before, during, and after? Is there anything uncomfortable about them? Can she interact with the characters of her visions? If so, has she worked to understand them?
I, personally, have used the myth of Persephone to come to a greater personal peace with myself and various issues in my life. Mythology can be a very important psychological tool. Sometimes a body can better deal with one's issues by looking at them as part of a bigger story, and teasing out the themes in one's life. Probably depends upon the way you are wired - somehow I don't think mythological therapy would work for someone like Tom D.
(By the way, I'm enjoying my ride on my high horse. Thanks for providing him for me. He's quite beautiful, with a bay coat and dark mane. He whickers, shakes his head, and laughs a horsey laugh at me. He thinks I'm hilarious and quite out of my league.)
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quote:Exactly similar to this medieval legend in spirit, although differing widely in detail, is the modern story of Shuï Rhys, told to me by a peasant in Cardiganshire. Shuï was a beautiful girl of seventeen, tall and fair, with a skin like ivory, hair black and curling, and eyes of dark velvet. She was but a poor farmer's daughter, notwithstanding her beauty, and among her duties was that of driving up the cows for the milking. Over this work she used to loiter sadly, to pick flowers by the way, or chase the butterflies, or amuse herself in any agreeable manner that fortune offered. For her loitering she was often chided; indeed, people said Shuï's mother was far too sharp with the girl, and that it was for no good the mother had so bitter a tongue. After all the girl meant no harm, they said. But when one night Shuï never came home till bed-time, leaving the cows to care for themselves, dame Rhys took the girl to task as she never had done before.
' Ysgwaetheroedd, mami,' said Shuï, ' I couldn't help it it was the Tylwyth Teg.' The dame was aghast at this, but she could not answer it--for well she knew the Tylwyth Teg were often seen in the woods of Cardigan. Shuï was at first shy about talking of the fairies, but finally confessed they were little men in green coats, who danced around her and made music on their tiny harps; and they talked to her in language too beautiful to be repeated;
indeed she couldn't understand the words, though she knew well enough what the fairies meant. Many a time after that Shuï was late; but now nobody chided her, for fear of offending the fairies. At last one night Shuï did not come home at all. In alarm the woods were searched; there was no sign of her; and never was she seen in Cardigan again. Her mother watched in the fields on the Teir-nos Ysprydion or three nights of the year when goblins are sure to be abroad; but Shuï never returned. Once indeed there came back to the neighbourhood a wild rumour that Shuï Rhys had been seen in a great city in a foreign land-Paris, perhaps, or London, who knows? but this tale was in no way injurious to the sad belief that the fairies had carried her off; they might take her to those well-known centres of idle and sinful pleasure, as well as to any other place.
quote:Nu Kwa, a mythical empress of China, was reputed to have become a goddess after she had passed to the celestial regions...When the demons of water and fire, aided by rebel generals of her empire, set out to destroy the world, Nu Kwa waged war against them. Her campaign was successful, but not until a gigantic warrior had partly destroyed the heavens by upsetting one of its pillars and the flood had covered a great portion of the earth. The empress stemmed the rising waters by means of charred reeds, and afterwards rebuilt the broken pillar...Thereafter she created the guardians of the four quarters, placing the Black Tortoise in the north, and giving it control over winter; the Blue Dragon in the east, who was given control over spring; the White Tiger in the west, who was given control over autumn; and the Red Bird in the south, who was given control over summer, with the Gold Dragon, whose special duty was to guard the sun, the moon being protected by the White Deity of the west. The broken pillar of heaven was built up with stones coloured like the five gods
quote:The Four Directions have been represented at least since the second century BC, by four celestial animals, the Dragon for the East, the Bird for the South, the Tiger for the West, and the Tortoise for the North. Each animal has its own colour: the Dragon is the Green of Spring, the Bird the red of Fire, the Tiger of Autumn the glittering white of metal (of ploughshares or swords), and the Tortoise Black, for night, or water. The four celestial animals, which have no connection with the twelve animals of the Chinese zodiac, are also the names of the four divisions of the sky. The Dragon's Heart, the Pleiades, and the Bird Star are the names of three of the lunar mansions which marked the central position of the Dragon, Tiger and Bird. As there was no identifying star at the centre of the Black Tortoise, the appropriate place (the eleventh mansion) was called Void.
quote: The White Tiger of the West, for instance, is associated with metal. When, therefore, metal is placed in a grave, a ceremonial connection with the tiger-god is effected. 'According to the Annals of Wu and Yueh, three days after the burial of the king, the essence of the element metal assumed the shape of a white tiger and crouched down on the top of the grave.' Here the tiger is a protector - a preserver. ...As we have seen, white jade was used when the Tiger god of the West was worshipped; it is known as 'tiger jade'; a tiger was depicted on the jade symbol. To the Chinese the tiger was the king of all animals and 'lord of the mountains', and the tiger-jade ornament was specially researved for commanders of armies. The male tiger was, among other things, the god of war, and in this capacity it not only assisted the armies of the emperors, but fought the demons that threatened the dead in their graves
quote:Ceridwen[, a] Celtic goddess was attended by white cats, which carried out her orders on earth
quote: In China the tiger is Lord of the Land Animals. It is the emblem of some military officers, typifying war, might and courage. Representations: The White Tiger represents the earth, the West, the region of death, and is guardian of graves. The Blue Tiger represents the East and plant life. The Red Tiger represents the South and fire. The Black Tiger represents the North and winter. The Yellow Tiger represents the sun.
quote:In Scandinavian myth cats pulled the chariot of Freyja.
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Katharine Kerr is only the fourth person I've ever met/heard of specifically who spelled her name that way.
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posted
Noemon, from what I understand, black cats pulled Freyja's chariot into battle, not white cats, which is what we're talking about here.
I agree with most of what you posted, Jenny, but I felt like maybe the dream of the death of the black knight could also have been a symbol of rebirth, or new beginnings in her life. Although, it could also be interpereted as the ending of a negative period and a beginning of a more positive time in her life. Sand, given it's usual origin next to the sea or bodies of water (even deserts were oceans at one point in time) could support this, as when the tide rises it covers the sand and when it receeds, the water reveals the sand again. This can be seen as a cleansing, as well.
I was going to post more, but I believe Jenny said most everything else I had to say.
(edit to add: Yeah, I know you were all wondering when I was going to post on this thread)
posted
What I'm saying, Tom, is that your derision is what is to be expected due to your worldview.
Observations which do not fit into the current worldview are generally dismissed, and usually also derided. This has no bearing on whether or not they are true observations.
A good example is all the many observations that were made in geology prior to the theory of continental drift, which supported the idea that the continents had not always been in their current places. For instance, the fact that fossils from old world faunas exist in a few places on the eastern borders of North America. The fossils of tropical faunas in Antarctica, etc. These observations were uniformly dismissed and often derided as well. Or they were explained away with spurious unlikely arguments similar to the madness hypothesis above. The girl shows no other signs of madness, so this would seem quite an unlikely theory.
Because there was no known mechanism for continents to move at the time, it seemed inconceivable to most scientists that it could be. What did they do? Go plowing their way through the ocean floor? You see the difficulty. It took a different level of understanding before those previously "wacko" observations now made perfect sense and became something we were collectively able to perceive. On every level of reality, from the small constant everyday perceptions we all make, to the greatest and deepest understanding of existence, the same effect occurs.
So, yes, Tom, I don't think it likely that this girl is mad or even lying. I think what's likely is that her experience falls outside what we can currently include in our systems of perception, limited as they are. As such, it's interesting, and notable, but not very useful to anyone except perhaps the one who experiences them.
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posted
So what you're saying with your analogy is that these white tigers really are roaming the streets in a dimension which only this girl can see...but someday we'll all be able to see them and look back on this discussion and laugh?
I'm going to start being nicer to cats. Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
No, what I'm saying is that observations or perceptions that can't be understood are often not even made, and when they are, they are almost always dismissed, and quite often with derision. This has no bearing on their validity.
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posted
Perception may not be reality. But how do you know what reality is without filtering it through your perception? I don't know that you can have one without the other. Is there really only one reality for everyone Tom?
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I agree. There is a thin, blurry line, if any.
It's when people start building a brick wall between the two that we label them as "whacked out of their skull" and toss them in the padded room.
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posted
"Is there really only one reality for everyone Tom?"
Yep. There are multiple PERCEPTIONS of that reality, and countless interpretations of it, but there's still only one real thing.
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posted
Tom, learn what this reality which we all experience is. Learn what we actually know of it. Learn about quantum electrodynamics, electromagnetic fields, and particle physics. Then learn about perception. Learn about the visual cortex and the various layers of its processing, for instance, and about neural net computers, and artificial intelligence, and what is known by science now about the way the brain perceives. Then you will understand reality a little better. Then we can have an intelligent conversation about reality. You talk about reality but you don't even know what it is.
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