posted
I dont mind them teaching abstanance, but I do minf them noit teaching realisim, sex happens, get over it, they need to get their heads out of their patooties andget a grip. Tell them how to be safe, tell them where to get a friggin condom.
posted
I'm doubting anal sex is on the curriculum Rhegar. Even if it is heterosexual within a marital relationship. AJ
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posted
No I meant in the NC curriculum. It was those persons who set the rules up (I assumed) to whom Rheagar was referring about their patooties...
AJ
I mean theoretically according to those regulations both oral and anal sex could be disucussed as long as it in the context of an already married couple and emphasized that abstinence was reccommended before marriage. Actually birth control could be discussed in that context too. Giant loophole, clearly the guidelines weren't written intelligently.
quote:True Lalo. The more sophistecated of us use the much more flexible Chess definitions.
Why just last night I got Knight to Black Rooks Three.
Man, Dan's behind the times. I use a series of charts. Third base, for example, is a strike on D-5. If the tactical hit is done by a veteran, there are very real possibilities of sinking her battleship.
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posted
Personally I don't think schools should have a "sex-ed" class. I think as part of high school science curricula they should have a semester in human anatomy and cover the reproductive system.
Girls do need to know how one gets pregnant. They need to know about how their bodies work and unfortunately, not every parent gives them the information. They should know the dangers of teen sex, namely the possibility of pregnancy, the failure rate of contraceptives, and the risks of STDs.
But it is not the school's place to teach morality. It's my job to instill morals and values and to teach her why we think sex should be reserved for the marriage bed. I especially don't want the school giving her the idea that sex is okay so long as she uses a condom. And I don't want the school giving her any or telling her where to get them.
Teach the kids how their bodies work, so they are armed with that info. Emphasize the dangers of unprotected sex and the problems that can arise out of sex before marriage because those are facts. Give them the stats on teen pregnancy and the spread and dangers of STDs. Give facts, not the opinions of any religious group or political action group.
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quote:Girls do need to know how one gets pregnant. They need to know about how their bodies work and unfortunately, not every parent gives them the information. They should know the dangers of teen sex, namely the possibility of pregnancy, the failure rate of contraceptives, and the risks of STDs.
Shouldn't boys learn this stuff as well? And what about the operation of contraceptive medcines and devices? That seems to fall under "facts."
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quote:And I don't want the school giving her any or telling her where to get them.
But that's the problem. If the school isn't allowed to say, "they sell condoms at 7-11, wal-mart, the local drug store, and in mall bathrooms" then how is your child _ever_ going to find out? It doesn't sound like you'll tell your child. So the kid might find out from a friend, or might see them for sale by accident.
Which might be okay, if your kid never has sex. Ever. Or always intends to become pregnant when sexually active.
But you're letting your kid slip through the cracks if he/she does have sex. In high school. Or in college. Or in marriage, when he/she doesn't want children.
It's one thing to offer condoms at the school either by pay or free. High schools come into a lot of trouble in that ground. Colleges do it all the time (most of them). But kids don't just start having sex in college, plenty start in high school (and a few earlier). I'd rather not let them slip through the cracks so easily.
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posted
Jon Boy, I'm sorry. I do think you're funny, and you're funny consistently. Your responses to the jokes were funny, which is why they kept happening.
*friendly pat on the shoulder*
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posted
Thanks, Katie. I think my responses were funny because I hate saying, "Okay, that's enough. Stop picking on me." When it gets to that point, everyone feels bad. And I know that you're a nice person who wasn't doing it to make me feel bad, so I was determined to take it the right way. But it just started to get old, and I've been grumpy lately.
[ January 15, 2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
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posted
Okay, I'll stop. *re-pats shoulder in a very appropriate fashion* It's the streak of the devil inside, I think. If it helps, I only tease those whom I think can take it, have back-up, and who won't be hurt because it's obviously not true. I know you have a good sense of humor, have lots of back-up that tells you how funny you are, and so you know it isn't true.
Plus, your responses were funny.
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posted
We started health education in grade 3. And I for one am very happy they did.
We didn't cover sex at that point, but puberty, etc. That year we started on "you will start changing soon and that's normal" sort of bit.
By grade 4 we talked about the menstrual cycle, etc.
We covered "health education" from grades 3-10. We learned tons of stuff...
We talked about abuse- physical, emotional, and mental.
We talked about depression, about different physical illnesses.
We learned how to "properly" take care of young children and babies. How to change diapers, how to prepare bottles.
We learned about nutrition, about what our bodies need.
We learned what to do if we were raped- what organizations were there for support. Which organizations were "private" (ones who would offer help without making you report it to the police).
We learned about shelters, about food kitchens, about where in the community we could get help if we ever needed it.
We learned about birth control (doctor's and health nurses came in for this), the different types, the prices, and the consequences. We learned about STD's. We learned about other diseases that could be transferred by other means.
And we were taught about abstinence. I went to a Catholic school. We were told the churches views- that sex was for in the marriage and for procreation. It was emphasized time and time again. In both health class and in religious education.
We learned about our bodies, about the opposites sex bodies. We learned how they function, how to take care of them, how to identify if something "serious" is wrong and the steps to take.
Birth control was only part of it. And not a terribly big part.
And I -am- for sure happy that I was taught this at school.
My mother died suddenly when I was in grade 8. We never even got the chance to cover everything that was in those classes. Because my mother died, should I have wandered around in oblivious bliss? My father never would have told me. Hell, he wouldn't go and buy pads -with- me. He'd wait in the car well I went in.
You can't trust that parents will tell their children everything they need to know about their bodies. Some just don't know about them. Others aren't comfortable talking about it. Others just don't get the chance due to disease and death or other reasons out of their control.
Belle (and others), I mean this in the context of a daughter who never got to have many of these (and many other) discussions with their Mother (or Father but for other reasons)... If, for whatever reason there isn't a chance for you to tell your daughters/children these things, would you really want them not to know? Or to have someone who might not have all the information trying to educate your children?
posted
I'm all in favor of putting condom vending machines in high school bathrooms and locker rooms (both male and female ones).
Access to information is important, and easy access to contraceptives without embarassment or a sermon is even more so.
I do believe in sex education in school and special counseling for at risk students. So many teenage girls are still getting pregnant even with the sex ed classes we have been giving. STDs are still there among the young and we need to be more aggressive in combating these situations.
Abstinence should be a vital part of the curriculum, but it should not be the whole curriculum. One only has to take a look at the birthdates of ourselves and our siblings and compare them to the marriage dates of our parents. Or I guess, for a younger generation, look into who the baby diddy is.
Perhaps in the case of unwed mothers, the state should require paternity testing before any form of public assistance is given. Potential fathers could be subpoenaed to provide samples and those found to be the fathers would be required to provide court ordered child support. With such strictures, it might carve into what has been a steady problem for so long.
One thing we can't do, however, is adopt a sex ed curriculum that stigmatizes sexual relations, it creates an unhealthy outlook in some students and backfires in others (sometimes some students find that by being "bad" they gain something among their peers ... the easy girl in high school was rarely without friends and admirers...)
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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O_o Maybe I really should've had a whole course on sex ed, eh?
quote:If it helps, I only tease those whom I think can take it, have back-up, and who won't be hurt because it's obviously not true. I know you have a good sense of humor, have lots of back-up that tells you how funny you are, and so you know it isn't true.
This makes me feel a lot better. Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
(Should this go in a different thread? Probably. But I'm lazy. I invite you to sue me.) It's weird, but I never really get tired of people picking on me. When I'm in a good mood, I find it funny. When I'm in a bad mood, I like to make myself feel as bad as possible, so I really wallow in it.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Hmm, sex ed is an interesting topic for me. I never really had an formal sex ed, since I was homeschooled. A bunch of homeshooled girls and mothers got together to watch a video they felt was appropriate several years early. I don't know where I learned it, but I basically knew everything in it already. Later on when I actually started my period, my mother gave me an extremely rudimentary explanation of how to insert a tampon. I did better by reading the directions.
I took college biology when I was 15 and that was pretty much as rigorous of a scientific explanation as you can get, since you had to memorize and regurgitate it on a test.
My parents are definitely in the abstinence before marriage camp. They didn't worry too much since I never had a boyfriend while living at home. Their main occupation was making sure that any of the guys that were my friends never considered me girlfriend material. However, Mom's refusal to listen to medical advice in one case did affect me quite a bit.
I had extreme acne. Like most kids these day with extreme acne they put me on Acutane. The dermatologist normally prescribed birth control along with the Acutane for all female patients because Acutane can cause such horrible birth defects. My mother (in the room with the doctor and me of course) looked the doctor straight in the eye, and said, no she isn't going on birth control and she won't get pregnant. The doctor then looked me straight in the eye and said, you realize if you do get pregnant you would probably need an abortion? I think I nodded my head, but I wasn't about to open my mouth one way or the other since I would have gotten in trouble no matter what I said. I knew I wasn't sexually active at the time, and that I wouldn't be, knowing I was on this medication.
However, I did not have nearly a drastic improvement while on acutane as most female patients do. It turns out that if they had put me on birth control at that time my acne problems would have been corrected because the root cause was entirely hormonal in nature.
Six or so years later, when I graduated from COLLEGE. Mom came out to visit at my graduation, and had a hissy fit because my face was breaking out. It always had and I was just used to it by then, and I'd been under huge amounts of stress my senior year. Fortunately I'd figured out how to use make up in the mean time to minimize the worst of it (no thanks to my mother who didn't believe in wearing any). Anyway she dragged me to the dermatologist while she was visiting because she insisted on doing it while I was still on her insurance. My mother is a determined lady and it wasn't worth the argument so I went. She reeled off the litany of my face looking awful to the latest dermatologist. (Do you know what it is like to have both parents tell you, you look awful and to go wash your face the entirety of the teen years and most of college?) The doc looked at me and I could tell see the humor in the situation of a woman dragging her 21 year old in. He could probably tell by my entire body language what I thought of the ordeal, especially considering I'd had to lie on the checklist about drinking and being sexually active since my mother was looking over my shoulder when I filled it out. He looked my mother straight in the eye and said. If it has lasted this long, the problem is clearly hormonal, when was her last OB/GYN appointment?
My mother sputtered a bit about me not needing it, because I wasn't married. He gave her a thorough lecture on women's health (which I enjoyed because of her discomfiture) and we left. Fortunately by the time the OB/GYN appointment rolled around, she had left to go back home, and I was able to talk to a doctor in peace and confidentiality. Turns out I had polycystic ovaries, and that my current birth control didn't provide enough estrogen to compensate for my high testoserone counts that caused the acne.
All of this could have been avoided and I could have been acne free years earlier if they had put me on birth control when I went on acutane to begin with. The relatives started doing the same thing to one of my teenage female cousins, and were talking about putting her on acutane. They asked my opinion and I told them exactly what I thought in hindsight and that the hormones from birth control would do her more good than the acutane if her problem was at all similar to mine. Fortunately for my cousin, her father is a pharmacist and he understood the medical logic (though he'd never applied it to his own child before) rather than being as muleheaded as my mother.
Most of my interesting and practical, and fortunately medically correct sex ed, was learned from all of my friends I hung out with while I was high school age, but going to the community college. They were all science nerds so they would discuss it from both the sexually and scientifically explicit and rigorous angles, and I'm lucky to have known them, even if it was an eye opener a couple of times, finding out more than I wanted to about their sex lives! Fortunately my parents only saw the science nerd side and had no idea how kinky they actually were. Otherwise I'm sure I would have been banned from hanging out with them!
posted
Belle, I think my teacher did a wonderful job of presenting information without pushing an agenda. He was very much in the no premarital sex camp, but I only knew that because I went to church with him. I must have just gotten extremely lucky.
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posted
Yes, boys need to know it just as well, I just used girls in my example because I was thinking of my daughter.
I sat down with my daughter and explained all this to her already. We opened an anatomy book together and I told her everything, from what ovulation is to what STDs are.
I don't think the school should give my daughter condoms. In my household we don't condone pre marital sex, and I don't want the school interfering in what messages I choose to send my child about sexuality. That doesn't mean I want my child to remain ignorant - I just want her hearing it from me first. That's why I have given her all the information I could and answered every one of her questions. It got to the point that she told me to hush, she didn't want to hear anymore.
I was taken to an OBGYN when I was 14. I intend to take my daughter to one as soon as she begins menstruating. Not so she can be given birth control pills, but so her health can be assessed and she can be monitored. Coming from a long lineage of women with PCOS and endometriosis, she has a fair chance of having one or the other or both. I agree with your doctor AJ, that girls should see a GYN long before they need an OB.
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posted
Belle, that's why I don't feel strongly about having condoms available at the school. But I still feel strongly about giving them the entire sex education talk in school. Your thorough discussion with your daughter doesn't mean that every parent gives their children the same thorough education.
I feel it goes into lifelong learning. I was taught how to write checks in middle school. Everyone should be handed the same basic knowledge in school, _especially_ when it's as important as sex.
It seems like you're saying that sex is too important to be left to school administrators. And I'm saying that sex is too important not to be.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I think condoms should be available from a school nurse, on request. I think beyond that (except maybe as a practical portion of sex ed, the old "condom on a banana" shtick) is unnecessary.
Personally, I think that comprehensive sex ed should be explicitly opt out. I think at the beginning of any school year that will have sex ed in some form, a letter goes home to all parents, to be returned with the parent's signature if they don't want their child in sex ed. The reason for this is for people like Jaiden, or myself, who have unavailable, uncomfortable, or uneducated parents. Parents like you, Belle, are pro-active enough in this area such that requiring you to sign an extra piece of paper is not a problem. But to have sex ed be opt-IN will (and would have) caused many more children to have no clue, or grossly inaccurate ideas about sex, and their body.
It's convenient to argue that sex ed is the beginnings of morality taught in schools, but even comprehensive sex ed programs are 99% apolitical. There's the occasional outliers, but there is no system that can account for that, without outliers of its own. It's up to the local parents to then take responsibility like you do, Belle, to prevent the outliers. If they don't, then they either don't care as much as they proclaim, or they assume the schools are simply teaching the parents' brand of morals anyway.
But your alternative seems to me to create more outliers of a nefarious type: naive, mistaken kids. Those outliers are a lot harder to fix after the fact.
quote: It's my job to instill morals and values and to teach her why we think sex should be reserved for the marriage bed.
Unfortunately, Belle, this doesn't always work. I have plenty of friends whose parents have taken this same approach, and very few of them are still waiting. The sad thing is, teenagers have sex. I'm not condoning it (I'm personally waiting for marriage), but it's true. Few kids end up with the same views as their parents on sex. There's nothing wrong with wanting to instill your values in your kids, but I think that they should know how to have safe sex, if they decide to do so.
quote:I especially don't want the school giving her the idea that sex is okay so long as she uses a condom.
That's not what schools are saying. They're saying that if you do decide to have sex, you'd better use one.
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quote: Why just last night I got Knight to Black Rooks Three.
I feel so freakin' lame. Is the point of this that I'm supposed to use my own dirty mind to figure out what Dan got?
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quote: The pregnant girl responded, "What does sex have to do with having kids?"
I've heard this too...and even worse I was teaching the male anatomy to my child development class last semester and over half of my students couldn't correctly identify a penis. One boy even got it wrong. *shakes head sadly*
I teach in a high school with a fairly high population of teen parents. Research shows that teaching about contraception is much more effective in preventing STD's and pregnancy than teaching only abstinence.
While I am a firm believer in abstinence, I also believe in making educated choices. Many of my students who are parents are in that situation for one reason: they didn't know how to keep it from happening other than just not "doing it."
Teaching abstinence is great- but that's a moral decision that some people will choose not to make. I view teaching about contraceptives and protection against STD's as education on safe sex, not encouragement to have sex.
posted
Why is it assumed that safe sex techniques are only useful for teaching teens to have sex? Don't married people need to know this if they wish to avoid more children every year?
You can teach abstinence and the avoidance of premarital sex and still teach safe sex.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
You know what I've always wondered? Given the preponderance of free condoms in sex ed, not to mention the pamphlets from Planned Parenthood, who often help high school girls get abortions with or without parental consent, I wonder if high school sex ed teachers have ever considered trying to be completely fair to to give students all the possible options.
That is, why don't they also pass out a list of fast marriage license providers in the state, or nearby in other states? You know, drive-thtough chapels that don't look too hard at ID or ask for parental consent.
I mean, if you can trust a kid to decide to have sex as a teenager, even if it's "safe sex", why not to get married?
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posted
Most people who teach sex education don't trust a kid to be able to decide ably whether or not to have sex.
They understand that lots of kids are going to decide stupidly to have sex (perhaps some in an informed manner as well).
And as such, its far better to educate kids on what it means to have safe sex rather than to create a situation where they're either going to have an abortion, put the child up for adoption (least likely), or have to raise the kid (and with either of these last two the kid has to go through the societal humiliation we've constructed for pregnant kids below college level).
This isn't about some sexual agenda against what you consider moral, Sachiko, this is about preventing kids from being in bad situations they would otherwise fall into, and in particular educating those whose parents have taught them f***-all about safe sex, or even sex at all.
posted
No, I'm not talking about a moral agenda. I'm just talking about presenting all the options and educating children about them, so that they can make an informed choice.
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posted
What would people think if a Safe Sex Ed class had an opt-out like this:
If to opt-out, you fill out a form requiring both parent and child's signatures. It would ask if you had already taught Abstinence or Safe Sex (or both). Then it would ask the child to sign in agreement.
1) I have taught my child abstinence. 1) I was taught that sexual intercourse is unacceptable before marriage.
2) I have taught my child of safe sex options. 2) I was taught how to use and obtain condoms for prevention of sexually transmitted diseases and the prevention of pregnancy. I was taught how to use and obtain birth control pills for the prevention of pregnancy.
-------------------
Unless are truly angry about having the word "condom" on anything their child could read...
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
You're either deliberately or naively twisting what sex education is about. Sex education is not about helping kids make an informed choice whether or not to have sex, it is about ensuring that when kids do make that choice they know how to protect themselves.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Well, I agree with you Fugu that in an ideal society, there would be no problem with sex ed in schools.
I also (but to a lesser degree) respect a parent's decision to educate their child individually. I'm just very concerned that some children will get absolutely zero education (not even abstinence ed) after their parents sign them out of the class due to communication problems.
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posted
That consent form sounds nice, but I think the issue a lot of people have with that would be that children get into "trouble" (STDs and inintentional pregnancy) because they are ignorant of the basics of sex ed.
(Okay, correction, SOME children will chose to make "trouble" for themselves no matter what; others do it out of ignorance of human biology and contraceptives.)
These children have "trouble" ( ) because their parents either: 1. Fell down on the job of teaching them because of ignorance, laziness, or discomfort with the subject, or 2. Deliberately didn't teach their children because of moral beliefs.
The chip on my shoulder would like to point out that many people add "false", "restrictive", or "outdated" before the phrase "moral beliefs". Okay, Chip is done.
If the feeling is that these ignorant children must be rescued from their parents' incompetance, a consent form like that wouldn't address those issue adequately.
It sounded nice, though. Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Why wouldn't sex education be about helping kids make an informed choice? That's what they claimed it was about in school.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I dunno. I have no clue what the opt-out rate would be in different communities. Maybe you'd have to do a book report to fulfilll the requirement of Sex Ed
Opt-out is definitely better than Refusing To Teach Contraception and STD Prevention. I feel the parents who really don't communicate with their children wouldn't turn in the form.
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posted
I'm still wondering what would be wrong with giving kids information on marriage licenses and local chapels.
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posted
Wrong? Nothings particularly wrong about it, except it has nothing to do with sex education. The choice to get married is not something that our school system, in sex education or out, is intended to get involved with.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Marriage is very much involved with sex education, as sex ed is taught. Sex is a huge, complicated issue fraught with emotional and physical and societal consequences.
Many people oppose the "here's a free condom" kind of sex ed because they believe sex is a sacred act reserved for those who are married and that sex and marriage are inseperable issues.
I think marraige has everything to do with sex, and therefore sex ed, and if the schools are willing to get involved with one, why not the other?
After all, if students are mature enough to be given information on how babies are made, and are given resources on how to prevent or abort those babies, then why not offer resources on marriage?
Being a contractual situation, I would think marriage is a less controversial topic than ones that deal with the creation and extinction of human life.
posted
My school, like Jaiden's, started with sex-ed in elementary school, where we covered basics like puberty and how to be healthy in general. They started teaching the basics of menstruation as well, which I think is important because girls are menstruating as early as 8 or 9 years old now.
I'm pretty sure they started teaching about STDs, contraception, and other stuff like that in about 5th grade, the first year of junior high. My mom and I still laugh about the first day of sex-ed. I came home after school, and told my mom all about what they were teaching me. (My mom and I have always been very close and she's always been very open with me and my sister about sex and related subjects...we read the "Where do babies come from?" book when we were about 6 and 4, respectively.) I related everything I had learned about STDs and condoms. And I told her that abstinence was the best way to prevent STDs and pregnancy. But I was a little bit confused -- I looked at her and asked, "But Mom...what's abstinence?"
So, for the record, I believe all sex-ed classes should also teach vocabulary.
I, however, am all for complete sex education, especially in low-income areas. If you think about it, most (and I'm honestly going to say all) Hatrackers are well-educated (we're all literate, at the very least), and have enough money to have access to a computer. It is not our children we need to worry about.
I challenge you to compare teen pregnancy rates among children of people like yourselves and teen pregnancy rates of kids of people living in or close to poverty. The difference is astounding. Public policy needs to be directed towards helping kids from low-income, broken or non-existent families whose parents don't have time to or choose not to be involved in their childrens' lives. This is why the opt-out system is a good idea -- parents like Belle are involved enough in their kids' lives to take the time to sign a piece of paper. Other parents may not be.
Basically, as I've been reading this thread, I've become concerned that everyone here has basic assumptions about the kind of kids we're dealing with -- namely, our own. But Hatrack is not at all representative of the general population.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I think there's a tendency to assume that because students come from poor or broken families, they are not only more ignorant of sex, but are also unable to refrain from it.
Children do need a knowledge of human biology.
But I think that trying to fix the problem of poor, broken homes and neglected children with birth control is too simplistic. It's slapping a band-aid on a symptom and it doesn't address the real problems that got those families to that point to begin with.
What all children should be taught is how to make wise decisions for themselves, by teaching them about the consequences of their actions. I think having students carry around a bag of flour like it's a child is a good introduction to Responsibility 101.
I wouldn't like to assume that, if a child hasn't been taught responsibility, they cannot learn it. It seems unfair that Hatrack kids would get careful moral and/or religious instruction, whereas disadvantaged kids would get instructions on how sex is done, free birth control, and the number to the local Planned Parenthood.
Don't disadvantaged kids deserve to have the long-term consequences of promiscuous or pre-marital sex pointed out to them, too? Isn't that important for their emotional sexual health, to learn to recognize the dangers of not controlling their sexual urges?
quote:I think there's a tendency to assume that because students come from poor or broken families, they are not only more ignorant of sex, but are also unable to refrain from it.
Take a look at some of the statistics, Sachiko.
[ January 31, 2004, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Are there statistics showing that some people are morally stunted and that's why they're poor? That income corresponds with an inability to learn to control oneself, or to make decisions based on other than that which is immediatly pleasurable or convienent?
Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I never said that disadvantaged kids shouldn't learn that abstinence is the best way to prevent pregnancy, best way to protect yourself, yadda yadda yadda....I'm saying *everyone* should get the whole package, and that when legislators consider these issues they need to consider families and children who have other problems that prevent them from adequately educating their children about sex and responsibility.
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