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In fairness to the_Somalian, while I don't agree with how he said it, I surely felt that way when I first came here and read some of OSC's articles. I think it came from having this very strong appreciation for the man and author, having read a ton of his books and thought I had a grasp of how he would be "in real life." You read the books and find this love of life, appreciation for diversity and interesting points of view and...well, nothing that would have pointed to a bitter, Conservative rant on a monthly basis. When I first read his articles, I had expected some of the warmth, wit and good humor of his novels but found only poorly worded re-treads of the kind of right wing apologists that one can hear on Rush or Hannity type show.
It isn't a matter of "it is his space and his right" which of course is true. It is big fans of his work having to come to grips that the author of such wonderful and inclusive tales of Alvin Maker or Ender Wiggin is so completely on the other side of the fence outside of those stories.
I could ask the question "What Would Alvin Say" about certain topics and couldn't hear him saying the kinds of things that OSC does about his fellow citizens. So while the Somalian may have gone off half-cocked, I can completely relate with the feelings of disappointment and shattered images of who the real OSC is outside of the novels.
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I don't disagree with OSC all that much - it's mainly one issue, civil gay marriage.
I saw a perfect example of the kind of opinion that spurs a lot of OSC's editorials in the Post Express today (they don't put those online). It was basically a ranting dismissal of opponents of gay marriage, with no attention paid to the unique government purpose behind the legal benefits of marriage.
The casual dismissal of the "gays can marry straight people" argument is similar. This is not ridiculous when taken in context of the larger debate on the societal importance of traditional marriage. Yet people generally dismiss it with one sentence.
It's mind-boggling to me. If you disagree with a point, then explain your reasons. If you jump up and down and call the person with the opposing opinion names but don't provide reasons, don't expect to be taken seriously.
Dagonee Edit:
quote:I could ask the question "What Would Alvin Say" about certain topics and couldn't hear him saying the kinds of things that OSC does about his fellow citizens.
I think you'd be surprised what Alvin would say. OSC clearly thinks that there is a role for government in the preservation of a traditional community sturcture and underlying moral code. I'd be surprised if Alvin doesn't agree. Remember who Alvin is loosely modeled after.
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You know, I've always known and been aware of the fact that this forum is operated and paid for on a strictly volunteer, charitable basis. But I'd never thought about that while thinking of Card's essays.
Now, I'm not talking about Card's opinions which I often disagree with (well, actually, it's mostly social domestic areas I disagree with). I'm talking about how he writes his opinions when he is obviously intelligent enough and aware of the fact that many people won't like them, and some in fact will come to hate and despise him for thinking the way he does (to wit, the_Somalian).
But still he write, and maintains the forum, and even permits people to disagree with him. I haven't been to Ornery in quite awhile, so I guess I'd forgotten it's 'Charter' (so to speak) about creating a place for political dialogue. Card is definitely doing that, and I can't say I'd be as generous about it if I were him. So, thanks again, Cards and mods, for the generosity. I've said it before, but this time it's for a different reason.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I do have to say that from the flip side of the coin, Mr. Card has never ripped into The Somalian for his statements.
Perhaps he understands that private opinions publicly expressed are still, at their core, private opinions.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I dislike OSC's opinion articles as much as anybody, but I am still always happy to reread the original Ender series. I would still buy his books if he didn't insist on inserting his rants into them, a la Petra's monologue against psychology in Shadow of the Hegemon.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'll still read his books. Like CT I'll probably try to avoid the Shadow series (and fail, the same way I peek at the occasional article or two) It's just frustrating to me, because on a certain level I LIVE this issue. I'm not just someone sitting on an armchair who probably knows very little about what it is like to be queer in America, I'm in the game ready to take the blows and kicks that comes from them... It's just hard getting those sort of blows from an author I (still) respect. It's about as painful as being rejected by friends, not that that has happened to me. (yet) It makes me want to argue with him in the most politest manner possible, but it's agonizing to read him and realize he sounds like Billy Bob and Snot Nosed Punk of CWFA only without the terrible name calling! So frustrating... Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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A man whom we all love (hence being on his fansite) writes an essay expressing his point of few.
The essay is offensive, it's radiacal and goes against what some people on Hatrack believe and possibly practice.
So, one gets on the forum, that has been made in his honor, so that they can bash him and his point of view and his action in expressing the point of view due to it's harshness. Despite how, he has in someway provided a place for all of you to meet one another, enjoy one another on both an intellectually stimulationg level and a simple enjoyment of each others company.
So let me get this strait.
I came into your house, ate your food, enjoyed your home and family, and then when you decide to tell me what you think about the world, I call you idiotic and offensive just because I don't agree, or your just too harsh in what you say.
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i came onto this site due to meeting people from the site. i was on here long before i was familiar with the man's work. and i've only read one book by him. i'm farily indifferent toward the guy...
but that's neither here nor there.
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And no one started this forums saying I disagree with him, in a respectfull way. The way that this site was designed to be used and what has kept it alive for these years. People came into the site acting as if the man didn't have the right to write his own articles and express his own point of view. Like he was commiting a sin by writing what he believed in because it was offensive, or harsh, when it is thanks to him that we have a place to come and do that exact thing.
I'm sorry, I guess it just comes off as ungrateful to me somehow. I understand disagreeing with OSC, I do alot of the time. The man is simply that a man. But as a man he has every right I do, and by saying or implying that he is to blame for "alienating" people and condemn him simply because he expressed his opinnion, however radical, is what some of us do everyday. So the man can't do that now that he has fans?
[ July 14, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Jimmy ]
Posts: 43 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Bob -- you want to sit down and talk to OSC over a bowl of lime jello casserole? Dang -- two of the foods he hates most in the world -- jello and casserole. Guess we'll have to pass until you come up with a better menu Posts: 780 | Registered: Jul 1999
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KACard, y'all could come over and have pot roast, mashed potatoes and homemade biscuits at my house any ol' time... Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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W.W.A.D.? Keep in mind that Card didn't just write Alvin. He also wrote Peggy and Thrower and Calvin and all those people.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hey, if OSC comes over to my house, I'll completely go against one of my dearest held values-- and make the man a steak well-done.
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I am willing to serve up a steaming plate of feijoada. With or without farinha, on the side. His choice.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Note to Kristine -- Bob is not planning the menu for the wedding reception. On the off chance that you guys could make it, don't let the threat of jello stop you.
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Hobbes, are you just joshing, or are you really posting political articles somewhere? If you are, where?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Dag- perhaps. But not noticing for six hours after is unusual (see, the joke is that he would have accumulated 230 posts in six hours) Aw, forget it.
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Well so long as you promise never to kiss me again I may just start this idea up... of course this would require some sort of bloging like technology that I currently don't have...
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I'm not so sure I would want Dag as my attorney. I'd be afraid he'd be billing me for all his internet time.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dag, I've having EXACTLY the same problem at this law firm. Though, do your bosses come up to your computer after two days of saying, "Rohan, I'll have something for you in a few minutes," and say, "Hey! what are you doing at some non-legal website!?!?"
What a j-o-k-e.
p.s. The pay's not bad. Posts: 196 | Registered: May 2003
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I'm getting paid nothing - it's an internship for the US Attorney's office in DC. It's not bad - I get to go to court whenever I want pretty much, but they have a problem of evening out the workload. Either I have 2 motions and 3 discovery packets in one day, or I have to stretch one motion over 3 days.
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Responding to posts of the previous page: Well, hating jello is something on which I definitely agree with OSC! Blech! Nasty, jiggly, slimy stuff!
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I remember having to live on jell-o in the days following surgury. Actually it was only one day but it was still enough for me to swear off it for life.
Thankfully now that I'm a vegan I can say I can't eat it because of animal bones in gelatin. And people will nod understandingly and tease me about being vegan for the next few months. But I don't have to eat the jell-o. I feel this is a good compromise.
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I am a first. Most of my buddies couldn't find anything as first years but I guess I just sold out under a lucky star. Wait till I tell them you're working for the US Attorney in DC.
Posts: 196 | Registered: May 2003
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quote: Thankfully now that I'm a vegan I can say I can't eat it because of animal bones in gelatin. And people will nod understandingly and tease me about being vegan for the next few months.
Don't feel sad. Every conversation I have with my vegetarian friend starts with "You want a ham sandwich?" or something similar.
You'd think after two years I'd remember she doesn't eat meat. Just chalk it up to stupidity.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: Thankfully now that I'm a vegan I can say I can't eat it because of animal bones in gelatin. And people will nod understandingly and tease me about being vegan for the next few months.
So I shouldn't tell you about the "jello"s that are made with pectin or agar-agar instead of gelatin?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I would just like to say one thing. The fact that this is Card's forum is a total non-issue. I am getting very tired of people buttressing their viewpoints by stating the obvious fact that people have a right to hold opinion contrary to it. Of course I have a right to disagree. It is gracious of Card to offer this forum, but it's a bit tiring how the fact is used to address any objections someone may have to his articles.
At any rate, my hate for Card's political viewpoints stems from the fact that they're so emblematic of the stubborn, simple minded and self-righteous wing of conservatism. That Card states regretting not calling the COPS on people who INVITED him to their house...because they were in possession of some Marijuana...is profoundly indicative of what an unpleasant prude he must be. To whoever said he'd like to hang out with Card--why, for the love of God? Judging from his political essays, he's judgmental, self-important and quite the pompous asshole whose grandiose notions of himself as some sort of Speaker for anything and everything that makes Conservatism so repugnant to half the nation made me seriously reconsider my love for his fiction. I read some of his stories today and as I'm enjoying them, I'm reminded of the fact that the same man once suggested Syria and Iran be invaded after Iraq, and I shudder in disgust...
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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"People came into the site acting as if the man didn't have the right to write his own articles and express his own point of view."
Some of you need to realize that an objection to a man's opinion isn't the same thing as an objection to the man's right to hold that opinion.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Printer-friendly view of this topic
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I really don't read much op-ed anyway.![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I'm very indifferent to this topic. I have no idea why I posted.![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
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Keep in mind that Card didn't just write Alvin. He also wrote Peggy and Thrower and Calvin and all those people.
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(see, the joke is that he would have accumulated 230 posts in six hours) Aw, forget it.
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