quote:Ela, the Democrats don't and don't have to do anything to help them either.
That's because the Democrats have been thwarted in recent years by a Republican administration and Republican majorities in the House.
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Ela, in that general regard Republicans really aren't going to do anything for minorities because Republicans don't do things for groups (although individuals might). Even with the policy on gay marriage (which I vehemently disagree with) Republicans aren't doing for religious conservatives, they're doing it because that's what the majority of the party tends to believe in.
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quote:It's kind of like Kat's first response about how Dean's mark was idiotic because it won't play to the stupid people
I wish you could explain how you got that characterization out of "I think it's an act of desperation by a man with few cards to play."
I'm assuming you acted in good faith, mainly because of how easy it is to compare what Kat said to what you said. But it's a real strange kind of good faith.
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Ela, your argument of being Thwarted by republican control of the house does not stand. Clinton began his presidency with a Democratic House and Senate! Tell me what good he did?
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The statement Kat made that has been bothering me is this one:
quote:The dems are out of power in the federal government in every way it is possible to be out of power and still have a party.
What exactly are you trying to say here, Kat? Do you think one of the two major parties in this country is going to disappear because they lost an election? Sounds almost as though you think we are heading toward a one-party system, though I suspect that's not what you meant.
[ February 15, 2005, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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I just meant they keep losing. They've lost control and are getting farther and farther behind.
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I was referring to the February 15, 2005 03:48 PM post, my mistake.
Kat, when you say behind, what do you mean? I don't know, once again, maybe it's because I'm a minority, but I think the worth of a party is richer than it's ability to get the majority of the people to agree.
posted
OK, then where did she say "it won't play to the stupid people"?
quote:I'm not bashing Dean. The dems are out of power in the federal government in every way it is possible to be out of power and still have a party. I think Dean's trying to rally the base, and the race card is one of the few he has to play. It does look slightly idiotic considering the current Secretary of State, but he doesn't have many options. It's pathetic, but he has a long road ahead of him.
quote:It does look slightly idiotic considering the current Secretary of State, but he doesn't have many options. It's pathetic, but he has a long road ahead of him.
Kat,
No, Kat, I actually think that being a minority has informed how I see majority-ruled democracy.
quote:They've lost control and are getting farther and farther behind.
I grant you that the Democrats have lost control of the House and Senate, for now. But Kerry got 49% of the popular vote in the presidential election - not as far behind as you seem to think.
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Ela: They continually lose more seats in the House than they gain, and this past election, they lost a dramatic number of seats in the Senate. If the point of being in government and serving your constintuents is getting things done, they are continually doing worse.
[ February 15, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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If your constituents have it wrong, the point of government is the educate the people, there is a pull and a push, and anything short of that is political pandering. ____
Dag, I'm talking about her post, and I even highlighted the specific part of her post, and I told her why on the post speaking to tokenism.
posted
Continually? Last I checked, Democrats gained seats in 98. That's only 4 elections ago. Don't forget they held the advantage for decades before Gingrich's revolution; short term fluctuations aren't exactly bellwethers.
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Are we discussing SimCityAmerica? The hero saying "I have a plan." "What?" "It's secret." is quite the hoary Hollywood cliche.
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I was making an allusion to Nixon's secret plan to end Vietnam. Nixon's from Whittier, ane that's little bit east of Hollywood. I thought it was a more elegant answer than, "That's none of your business," while both responses are true.
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So what you meant was, "It's kind of like Kat's first response about how Dean's mark was idiotic for reasons I reacharacterized as 'it won't play to the stupid people.'"
Very cheap tactic, there Irami, using a disputed interpretation of a post as a reference to it.
I guess that duty thing doesn't extend to honest debate, huh?
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This whole thread is about how looks don't matter with respect to the truth. In other words, it may not be important how my answer plays on Hatrack.
quote:So what you meant was, "It's kind of like Kat's first response about how Dean's mark was idiotic for reasons I reacharacterized as 'it won't play to the stupid people.'"
Why don't we just ask her? Kat, what did you mean when you said, "It does look slightly idiotic considering the current Secretary of State, but he doesn't have many options."
posted
Irami, do you really think you can speak for all Black Americans? It bugs me sometimes, because my boyfriend of 5.5 years is also African American, and his family including his father have an entirely different perspective on race issues than you do. I'm trying to figure out why.
I realize that they came out of the Afro-Carribean experience which is somewhat different, but they have an interesting mix of socialism and libertarianism in their philosophies that is almost diametrically opposed from yours. In three generations, they've gone from immigrant truck driver, to a school principal with a Master's Degree who is a thesis shy of a PhD in History, to Steve, an engineer.
Why did they escalate up the social ladder so sucessfully so quickly, if there is such a racial bias in the system and a paradigm against their way of thinking?
(sorry this should have been way higher up the page about 3 or 4 of Irami's posts ago) AJ
quote:Ela, in that general regard Republicans really aren't going to do anything for minorities because Republicans don't do things for groups
No? What about tax cuts for the rich?
quote:Even with the policy on gay marriage (which I vehemently disagree with) Republicans aren't doing for religious conservatives, they're doing it because that's what the majority of the party tends to believe in.
I'm not rich and I got a tax cut. Why not say, "What about tax cuts for everyone including (gasp!) the rich?"
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quote:Irami, do you really think you can speak for all Black Americans? It bugs me sometimes, because my boyfriend of 5.5 years is also African American, and his family including his father have an entirely different perspective on race issues than you do. I'm trying to figure out why.
I speak for Irami, and I am black. Ela and NFL don't speak for all jews, but I imagine that being Jewish in America has informed their sense of America in a relevant way. I'm pretty sure they have said that at different times. Being a generation away from Jim Crow has informed how I look at Democracy, as I imagine being a generation away from the Holocaust has informed their sense of government and what people will agree to do. I can guess how, but I don't know. You should probably ask them. But instead of having a biased view, I'd say I have a richer view of the situation. And I'd say they have a richer view of the complexity of the problem.
The mccarthy hearings should have taught all Americans something about principle, but I don't know how good of students we are.
quote:Why did they escalate up the social ladder so sucessfully so quickly, if there is such a racial bias in the system and a paradigm against their way of thinking?
That's a good question and I don't have a very nice answer for it. And I'm also not sure that it's right. They bought in. It's not the same as selling out. "Selling out" has all of these ridiculous connotations. It's absurd. But there is a sense that I think that Harold Ford Jr. "bought in" in his support of the Ownership Society. This is grey area for me because I just don't know enough, and this idea isn't springing from my head fully formed like Athena.
quote:Why did they escalate up the social ladder so sucessfully so quickly, if there is such a racial bias in the system and a paradigm against their way of thinking?
It's controversial when you talk about escalation. It's a queer value system. I'm not so sure that being an engineer is that much better than being a truck driver, even if it pays more.
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David, the largest tax cuts went to the rich. According to Fact check.org:
quote:...the average [tax cut amount] is inflated by the fact that most of the money is going to a relatively few taxpayers at the top of the income scale, as seen from the following table distilled from a more extensive analysis by the Tax Policy Center...Taxpayers making more than $1 million a year get an average cut of nearly $113,000 this year. Such huge cuts at the top tend to pull up the numerical average [$1,586] that the President is fond of citing.
[ February 15, 2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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Irami, Steve works for the State of Illinois as a civil engineer. If he doesn't do his job in the Public Trust correctly and ethically, 1,000s of people could die. He checks concrete consistency on some of the busiest roads and bridges in the country. Is he morally superior to his truck driver grandfather? Absolutely not.
Does his job require a high code of ethics? Absolutely. Does he work with his hands in reasonably hard labor despite his college degree? Actually yes. You should see the amounds of concrete and asphalt he has to physically haul from one place to another for testing.
Does he or any of his family feel as if they've "sold out". They would be horrified at the idea! That's what ticks me off. You ASSUME that he has "sold out" or "bought in" or some such crackpot notion ("buying in" just seems like you trying to be nice). When he hasn't. And some automatically assume he's sold out or bought in because he's dating me because I happen to look like a stereotypical white chick, no mater how much I might dispise my blond hair and blue eyes. Never mind that we actually get along quite well and both happen to be left-handed engineers. He has to be a sell-out. Don't you realize how insulting that is?
Let's get personal: how many white women vs. black women have you dated? Unless you date soley black women I don't think you've got room to talk.
posted
Also, as has been repeatedly pointed out, unless you took advantage of some fairly esoteric tax cuts, all the tax cuts you received would probably have benefited you more in the plans the democrats tried to pass. So if you were voting your wallet DB, the way to vote in your case would have been Democrat in 2000.
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quote:Does he or any of his family feel as if they've "sold out". They would be horrified at the idea! That's what ticks me off. You ASSUME that he has "sold out" or "bought in" or some such crackpot notion.
As I'm not a crack pot, and I put more than my share of qualifications around the statement, especially considering that I usually write none, I'm just going to call this an impasse and figure it out on my own dime.
quote:how many white women vs. black women have you dated? Unless you date soley black women I don't think you've got room to talk.
I like women. , and on occasion, women like me, God bless them. If you really think that I don't have room to talk about my distaste for the ownership society or cultural value systems that fall along racial lines because I like women, then I don't know. It seems that you are the one propogating a bad argument.
posted
Yes I am sure that a majority of the Republican party believes that gay marriage should be banned. The "rich" pay more taxes which makes it logical in a capitalist system that they would recieve higher tax cuts.
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Irami, yes you tried to qualify it. But you still *said* it. And your bias is always dripping with scorn for it. So spare me please.
And yeah Steve's father the 2nd generation, is probably the most highly educated of the 3 generations. He's also been a sucessful black role model for lots of minority kids as a school principal. I'd actually love to see you and he converse, because he IS everything you claim you are trying to be.
quote: Have you seen hotel staff, especially in the midwest? It's like pretending that the overwhelming percentage of gardners in southern California aren't recent Mexican immgrants.
It's nice to a white person who isn't okay with it and is not afraid to say it.
I don't think acknowledging a fact and using it in a tasteless joke are the same thing. It ignores one group entirely for the sake of poking fun at another group.
Let's say I'm making fun of lawyers for tailoring to a rich white clientele: "The last time that lawyer saw a Mexican was when he spilled coffee all over his desk!"
Sure, a lot of Mexicans work on cleaning crews, but the joke is still tasteless.
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I saw something different in Irami's post about "buying in" vs "selling out. I didn't see it as just another way of saying the same thing, I saw it as a refutation of the negitive connotations of "selling out", which to me is a great idea.
I think that most of us, regarless of race, have "bought in" to the current system, and that works well for us as a society. "Selling out" implies (at least5 to me) that minorities don;t ahve a vested interst in succedding in education, or social progression, which I find stupid...I don;t see those values as tied to any particular color, which is why the whole idea of " selling out" never made much sense to me.
As far as only dating people of your own race....where did that come from? Why would that make anyone anything other than a racist? I can see not being particularily attracted to people from other races...if it isn't your thing, then it isn't your thing. But to deliberatly exclude all others, solely on race? I don't get how that would make anyone proud.
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The real problem with this is that the media and the american people spend more time talking about politicians gaffes than they do about the issues. Why should we care if Dean, when preaching to the choir, made a joke that seems tasteless when it hits the press? Why should we care if Dean let out a scream at Pep Rally? Why should we care if his wife is the quinticensial hostess?
Why should we care if Bush can't pronounce "nuclear" correctly? Why should we care if Bush figited during the debates?
All of this supports a move toward image and away from the policies and actions that really matter. Its time we let the media know that we as voters want substance, not this pathetic drivel.
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quote:Irami, do you really think you can speak for all Black Americans? It bugs me sometimes, because my boyfriend of 5.5 years is also African American, and his family including his father have an entirely different perspective on race issues than you do. I'm trying to figure out why.
Because, as individuals, they are distinct from Irami in every detail but the one that should matter least. They may share a skin color, but that does not mean that they have to share anything else.
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quote: I like women. and on occasion, women like me, God bless them
Yes, God bless the poor women who like you. They obviously suffer from a mental disease, and should seek help immediately.
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Yes, I know that was an ad hominem attack, taking a seemingly self-deprecating quote and turning it around in order to make a point that was mean and nasty. Those familiar with my character would vouch for the fact that I am usually polite, and refrain from saying nasty things. However, this guy has really pissed me off.
He says stupid, inane things and then when people (rightly) call him out on it, he makes it look like it is them who are guilty of the very thing that he is. Case in point:
quote:You ASSUME that he has "sold out" or "bought in" or some such crackpot notion ("buying in" just seems like you trying to be nice).
quote: As I'm not a crack pot, and I put more than my share of qualifications around the statement, especially considering that I usually write none, I'm just going to call this an impasse and figure it out on my own dime.
pssst . . . Irami . . . calling someone's notion "crackpot" isn't the same as calling the individual a "crackpot." Instead of answering the accusation, he turns it around. This isn't my only beef. He assumes that somehow his opinion on what a is good for a group is the only valid opinion, and if you disagree then obviously you don't care about his group. Didn't the president in his party once say "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"? But nooo, his idea of what makes a good party is one that believes in somehow "doing things" for its constituents. There is no free lunch in this world. The people who get ahead are the ones who do what AJ's friend did and suck it up and help themselves. But I digress into politics.
And what's this b.s. about "buying in"? What the hell is the problem with actually realizing that only you can better your situation, and actually doing something about it instead of complaining about how the other political party has it in for you? What a load of hogwash.
Again, sorry about the ad hominem attack. But there are too many things that Irami said that just get under my skin.
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quote:I don't think acknowledging a fact and using it in a tasteless joke are the same thing. It ignores one group entirely for the sake of poking fun at another group.
I thought the joke was funny. Look, as I see it, anytime the republican party has to choose between helping minorities, not just ethnic minorities, but gays out of principle or catering to WASP fears, the party chooses WASP fears. A constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage is absurd, and I imagine that most conservatives with a sense of principle agree, but the Republican party will push it. Profiling Arab Americans is gross, but Conservatives get nervous about their kids being blown-up and the Republican party comes down on the WASP side. American WASPs are some self-satisfied cats for all the wrong reasons, and I'm glad Dean is getting tough with them.
The "black community" is at each other's throat trying to figure out what to do. I'm not just talking about Cosby, once again, I agree with Cosby's comments. I'm talking about the day to day roughing up we give ourselves. If you think I'm tough on white people on Hatrack, I'm at least as hard on black people in real life. Do not be fooled, the solid democratic voting block means that black people know that they don't want to become white republicans, but outside of that, 50 black Kerry voters will give you fifty different visions for the black people in America.
quote:Let's say I'm making fun of lawyers for tailoring to a rich white clientele: "The last time that lawyer saw a Mexican was when he spilled coffee all over his desk!"
If that's how to get the ball started on the lawyer to gardener ratio in southern california, then so be it. It's a fine joke with enough truth in it.
Dean is serious about the problems. For some reason, the guy has a lot of credibility.
quote:What the hell is the problem with actually realizing that only you can better your situation, and actually doing something about it instead of complaining about how the other political party has it in for you? What a load of hogwash.
posted
The Dean Scream seemed to the uniformed viewer to convey a sense of instability. My first thought was that I didn't want him anywhere near America's nuclear arsenal. In private he may be a calm and collected man, but that wasn't the impression he gave. His comment on race wasn't just a joke, but a reflection of the Democratic attitude toward race relations.
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By the way, for the record, I have a great deal of respect for Howard Dean, though I disagree with his politics. I see him as neither ultra-liberal nor a nut case. In this particular situation, though, I thought his remarks was stupid, ignorant, and ill-advised. I also think the Democrat party, in general, takes the African-American vote for granted. I think there are many African-Americans who could plausibly think that the Republican Party could do more for them, and they aren't sell outs. Then again, I'm a poor white young guy, so please, feel free to ingest a hearty amount of salt as you read my words.
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quote:I think there are many African-Americans who could plausibly think that the Republican Party could do more for them, and they aren't sell outs.
That's the question. Do I support the party that's going to do more for me, or do I support the party that's going to do the right thing?
Kwea,
quote:I think that most of us, regarless of race, have "bought in" to the current system, and that works well for us as a society.
I think it's kind of like a credit card debt. At first, it's just convenience, and you know it's bad but you don't worry about it, then it becomes essential, then you find yourself approving of, or making excuses for, all manners of evil to pay off the bill because you are a slave to it. This isn't my story because as you can imagine, I have one little credit card, and I pay off the bill, but I think this is the problem of "buying in."
I don't know. Like I said, this isn't something I've figured out.
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They've lost control and are getting farther and farther behind.
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, and on occasion, women like me, God bless them. If you really think that I don't have room to talk about my distaste for the ownership society or cultural value systems that fall along racial lines because I like women, then I don't know. It seems that you are the one propogating a bad argument.
