Of course it isn't that simple. Nothing in life is simple. But it is a heck of a lot better than complaining.
Listen. I'm a pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps kind of guy. I guess that mentality comes from the fact that I had a very modest upbringing. We always had enough for our needs, mut not much else. I am putting myself through college on a combination of scholarships, financial aid, and loans, and I fully intend on working hard and making enough money to support my family. Any excess I will use to help my fellow man pull himself up by the bootstraps.
Nowhere in this scenario do I see government involvement. This is where I fundamentally disagree with most in the Democratic Party.
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quote: Do I support the party that's going to do more for me, or do I support the party that's going to do the right thing?
The latter. That's why, in general, I support the Republican Party. Because I believe they support doing the right thing.
IMO, the Democrat Party is more about "doing more" for people rather than providing them opportunities to help themselves.
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posted
So in order for someone who is a minority to vote for the Republicans because they feel that's the right thing they must be "selling out" or have "bought in?"
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quote:e Dean Scream seemed to the uniformed viewer to convey a sense of instability. My first thought was that I didn't want him anywhere near America's nuclear arsenal. In private he may be a calm and collected man, but that wasn't the impression he gave.
If everyone who had ever screamed at a pep rally was unstable, then we'd need to lock up 99% of the population. The problem with the Dean Scream, is that it was picked up by the media and played out of context specifically to create the unstable image. That was my complaint, the media focuses on image over substance.
After reasoned consideration, do you really think that Dean's scream at that rally was an indication that he was unfit for a responsible job? If not, why was that your initial response and why did it become a voting issue?
When the media picks up something like this from Bush, the right wing pundits cry foul play. If its foul play when its done to a republican, its foul play when its done to a democrat.
quote:His comment on race wasn't just a joke, but a reflection of the Democratic attitude toward race relations.
And he was speaking to a group of democrats, so making a joke that played to democratic biases seems perfectly reasonable. Its certainly no worse (and probably not as bad) as GWs "Some people call you the elite, I call you my base".
Was this really even "playing the race card"? After all, he was only preaching to the choir when he made the statement. How can that be considered a play of any kind?
On the other hand, the comment Orrin Hatch made during the Alberto Gonzales hearing specifically calling people racist if they objected to Gonzales record on any item was "playing the race card" and should have offended everyone involved.
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posted
Well, then I retract my support of that statement.
I read it like this, although I don't think it was what you meant.
Selling out means that someone has betrayed core values of their race, at least in the usage I ave heard.(BTW, I lived in Detroit, although in the 'burbs....actually it was Utica, on 20 mile and Van Dyke) I heard it over and over again for years. A "sellout" is someone who has turned their back on their roots, and moved on to things that are not traditionally thought of as part of their heritage.
My problem with that is that a lot of the things that the black communities suffer from are a direct result of either refusing to participate in specific situations...such as education....or in being denied access to those programs by other people because of race. I don;t think that someone who works hard and betters themselves is selling out as much as he is buying into the American system....and the whole attitude that that is selling out, somehow betraying their communities, is counterproductive, both to individuals and to society as a whole.
I don;t think that ignorance is a cultural value that is in the best interest of Blacks, but over and over again I have heard the Black kids who do well in school labeled sellouts. I don;t think that there is anything wrong with wanting to live in a safe area with your family, but I hear people being called sellouts because their girlfriends are white, or they drive a nice car, or they have a house in a better neighborhood.
It is the attitude, that "success" doesn't belong in the 'hood that creates the desire to leave it all behind and not look back. Rather than celebrating the fact that they are successful doing something they like to do, the Black community calls them sellouts because they don't live in a tenement building on 8 mile road anymore.
If they were a little more accepting about success, even if it came from avenues other than sports and music, people might stick around and try to help out a bit more. But no one likes to be called names, and not many people will try to help those who are calling them those names.
Why is a Black man who goes on to become a Doctor (or a professional classic musician?) a sellout, while a rapper who makes millions bragging about having people killed for fun isn't?
And what does that say about that section of society?
I don't think that success is a White thing, not failure a Black one. I don't think that Education should be a White thing, or ignorance a Black one.
But I don't hear White people calling each other sellouts when they move on and try to improve their lives, either educationally or professionally. Maybe they are using different words, like uppity, or getting above themselves, but for the most part I don't hear anything at all, not compared to the things I use to hear from my Black friends in school.
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quote:So in order for someone who is a minority to vote for the Republicans because they feel that's the right thing they must be "selling out" or have "bought in?"
Considering that I don't know what "bought in" means, I don't know. "Selling out" may have been appropriate in another era, but it's absurd now.
quote:I don't think that someone who works hard and betters themselves is selling out as much as he is buying into the American system....and the whole attitude that that is selling out, somehow betraying their communities, is counterproductive, both to individuals and to society as a whole.
Buying into the American system. That's the thing. How is it that I'm American, yet it's not my system. It's not just about working hard and bettering yourself, it's about buying into what "better" entails. Who got to decide what "better" means? And what sense does it make?I imagine it's the same people who decided what it means to be in the American system.
posted
See, I don;t think it was any one group who made the rules, although it was primarily white males who founded it.
My point was that if the people who are seeking to "better" themselves (education, better jobs) are removed from the society they grew up in, by that societies choice of minimizing them, why is it any surprise they don't feel obligated to the people who treated them so?
Who is selling out who...the people who want to do better than their parents did, or the society that is so arrogant that it assumes anyone not sharing it's exact values is "selling out"? It seems to me that the society is selling them out by refusing to support their choices.
Or are you only "Black enough" if you conform to some arbitrary standard of "Blackness"?
I see this happening a lot, to be honest.
Fact of the matter is that Black people, just like any other group, are a very diverse group...not all of them come from the same place, and they all have different backgrounds, different standards.
Irami isn't any less Black for being a classically trained musician, despite what might have been said by people I know. I know a lot of Black people who are college educated, and have better jobs than I do....does that make them less Black? Did they sell out?
I am not trying to be rude, just trying to express (and not all that well, I fear) some of the things I am thinking about within the context of this discussion. It is a sensitive issue, but everyone is afraid to ask questions about this for fear of offending someone.
quote:Considering that I don't know what "bought in" means, I don't know.
You don't know? You wrote it under the name Irami. Irami and Snowden are the same person. Yo don't know what you meant when you said that? Or were you hoping no one would notice you're switching identities in order to back yourself up?
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posted
kat, look at the post where he first used “bought in.” He said right from the beginning that he’s trying to figure out a concept that he’s not completely clear about. That’s not being disingenuous, it’s being open about thoughts that are still “in process” and not fully formed.
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It is a tremendously loaded and insulting phrase to toss off so casually when you don't know what you mean though.
It's like saying Dean is corrupt, and then claiming to be unsure what corrupt means when called on it.
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quote:the comment Orrin Hatch made during the Alberto Gonzales hearing specifically calling people racist if they objected to Gonzales record on any item
Really? I'm assuming you meant his "Every Hispanic in America is watching" comment. If you didn't, please link the actual quote.
Proceeding as if that is the quote you meant, you take his statement way to far, especially with the "specifically" description. Did he really say "any" objection was racist?
posted
Rabbit, sometimes people scream at pep rallies, but usually they don't appear to lose control over their mental faculties because it wasn't just his voice cracking, it was his facing going red and the uncontrollable rant. As far as why the media picked up on it so much, because they want ratings and clearly the media didn't have Dean in mind for who they wanted to get the nomination.
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posted
From your point of view why would Fox even care who won the Democratic primary they should actually be the lone objective voice? And just so you know I was mainly watching MSNBC and CNN for coverage of the Democratic primary.
posted
No, I just think NFL has bought into the excessive news coverage of what I view as an insignificant event and given it way too much significance.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Dean is mentally unstable, as NFL seems to imply.
[ February 16, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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posted
I like the second sentence of the above post. That addresses and refutes what NFL said, instead of just generally dismissing him.
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posted
I logged in Snowden by mistake. I thought this was Ornery, and I got confused. I figure everyone who made it this far knows that Irami/Snowden is the same person so I didn't go out of my way to change it. You can see some sort of grand stratagem in it as you want, but I have bigger fish to fry than some alias game.
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posted
Given that up? That's like saying, "Katie, I'm glad you stopped stealing cars, it's really a shameful habit." I've only ever had two names on this forum. Snowden, and Irami, and I'm pretty sure that when I switched to my real name, I made a thread saying that, "Hey guys, Irami = Snowden."
posted
You don't remember Questioner? I do. You have done the fake alias thing to prove a point before.
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posted
Yeah, I forgot about that. A woman asked me a question about birth control that I couldn't answer so I came to hatrack. I wanted people to address me like they would address a woman about birth control, because, you know, sometimes I have a problem showing my sensitive side and I imagined the counselors on hatrack would use better words, words and phrases that I could just steal. I didn't anticipate that they would lay into "Questioner" as much as they did, and when that happened, I fessed up in that same thread twenty some odd responses later, and started shaking my finger in people. because the responses I had gotten as Questioner were even more insensitive thatn my boorish instincts, making me glad that the real woman had come to me instead of hatrack. It was a lark, and as soon as it became something more, I put a stop to it.
posted
Ela, like I said I don't Dean necessarily is unstable, he may be an intelligent, calm, collected man in private. However, that was not the impression he made in a public speech and impressions made in public during an election have all too great of importance to expect the media to dismiss them. Since I am neither a registered Democrat nor do I live in state with open primaries I didn't have a real preference as to who got the nomination once I knew that Lieberman didn't stand a reasonable chance.
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posted
I think Dean's joke was a little tasteless, and stupid for a politician to tell at a public event. Of course, it has an element of truth in it: Republicans routinely scrape up 10% or so among black voters. I think the Dean scream has been hyped and replayed so much it makes the conservatives who do so look ridiculous. On the Sean Hannity show he plays that sound-bite all the time, over and over again, then has a chuckle over it. Other conservatives bring it up anytime Dean is mentioned. It makes them sound vindictive and nasty--I mean, it was a year ago, and Dean lost the primary. Move on.
I totally agree with what Rabbit said. Image rules in American politics, and that should change.
quote: All of this supports a move toward image and away from the policies and actions that really matter. Its time we let the media know that we as voters want substance, not this pathetic drivel.
Rabbit
quote: I'm a pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps kind of guy. I guess that mentality comes from the fact that I had a very modest upbringing. We always had enough for our needs, mut not much else. I am putting myself through college on a combination of scholarships, financial aid, and loans, and I fully intend on working hard and making enough money to support my family. Any excess I will use to help my fellow man pull himself up by the bootstraps.
Nowhere in this scenario do I see government involvement. This is where I fundamentally disagree with most in the Democratic Party.
Brian Hill. Brian, education however you get it is a good thing. But I have a question for you. Do any of the "scholarships, financial aid, and loans" programs you use involve the goverment? I'll bet they do.
So are only programs that help you positive? That last may seem harsh, but I have seen many people express that attitude before.
Of course people should try to help themselves to the best of their abilities. Some are more able than others, though. Many people have different needs, and I think the government has a role in helping them. Not exclusively the government, but a role.
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posted
I forgot to add that I thought Irami was treated a little harshly in this thread, maninly about the "buy-in/sell-out" dealio. Dkw was correct in pointing out that Irami seemed unsure of the whole concept's validity. As many are, including me: I have mixed feelings about it. Minorities should cherish their own culture while trying to fit into the mainstream. Not easy.
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posted
Very good point, Morbo. I am appreciative of the help the government has given me to pursue an education. I guess I was getting too carried away when I said that *nowhere* do I see the government involved in my plans for my future. I admit that my statement was more hyperbole than well thought out reason.
This brings up the issue of what is appropriate government involvement. I think there are several areas in which government programs are helpful, including help with my education. I believe that in a "perfect" world, there would be enough private money available to help me get myself through college, but such a world doesn't exist. However, if there was absolutely no help available at all from the government, I would still become educated. My belief still remains that our future is ultimately our own responsibility, as is the responsibility to help others.
Things are rarely black and white. That's why I am always modifying my statements with "mostly," "IMO," "in general," etc. So I will end this post with a statement I've already made.
quote: That's why, in general, I support the Republican Party. Because I believe they support doing the right thing.
IMO, the Democrat Party is more about "doing more" for people rather than providing them opportunities to help themselves.
I don't apologize for my comments to Irami, except for the ad hominem cheap shot. His whole take on this issue (and most issues) is offensive to me, for reasons I've already been over.
I am now returning to my regularly-scheduled lurking.
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posted
Dean's scream scored some him some points in my favor. I thought it was cool to see someone excited about politics, even if they're weren't cool while they were being excited about politics.
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because the responses I had gotten as Questioner were even more insensitive thatn my boorish instincts, making me glad that the real woman had come to me instead of hatrack. It was a lark, and as soon as it became something more, I put a stop to it.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
