I don't think we're communicating well. Shan's mom is only responsible for divorcing the men she divorced. She's not responsible for her X's previous divorces, nor is she responsible for the divorce of her own parents.
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MrSquicky - I just want you to note the following, please:
Out of all her husbands, all but one of them had also been married and divorced AT LEAST ONCE prior to marrying her. I could go deeper, and tell you how many times each of their former spouses had also been married and divorced. In sharing my personal example, I am trying to illustrate how the no-fault divorce has branches and roots far beyond the nuclear family.
Regardless - I do not think my mother was a "screw-up" for making mistakes. She was a human being - just like my biological father, my adoptive father, my two step-fathers, my step-mother . . . do you get the point? All human beings make mistakes - and regardless of their mistakes, name-calling is not helpful.
I entirely agree that selfishness and immaturity are the problem. But, saying that "easy divorce" doesn't add to the selfishness and immaturity is like not acknowledging that children are ultimately happier and healthier (and better behaved) when they have secure boundaries -
And is that not what a marriage should be? A place of safety within clearly defined boundaries for a couple and their children?
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quote: I entirely agree that selfishness and immaturity are the problem. But, saying that "easy divorce" doesn't add to the selfishness and immaturity is like not acknowledging that children are ultimately happier and healthier (and better behaved) when they have secure boundaries -
That is exactly what I was going to point out. Kids learn to share and to not be selfish because they aren't *allowed* to behave selfishly without reproach. Adults should be held to the same standards.
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See but you are both sayign that easy divorce makes it so that children don't have secure boundaries, which isn't true. As I said, having easy divorce with responsible, mature people isn't a problem and having no easy divorce with irresponsible, immature people is still a big problem. Children don't have secure boundaires when they come home to their parents constantly fighting. There is a lot more to having a good environment for children than simply "both parents are there". You can have these things with easy divorce, but they are very difficult to have where there isn't responsibility and maturity.
Shan's mom is a human being. She's also a human being who failed, repeatedly, at one of the most serious and important areas of adult life. She behaved irresponsibly and immaturely.
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Adults shouldn't be held to the same standards as children. They should be held to higher ones. Adults have so much more freedom and their decisions are generally longer lasting and more serious than those of children. As such, they need to develop (wait for it) responsibility and maturity. It doesn't work to constantly be looking over their shoulders to make sure they don't screw up. Focusing on the breakup of the marriage misses out on the fact that the important parts are the entry into the marriage and the time within the marriage. Prevent the ending without fixing these two vastly more important parts and you've got a really bad marriage and a terribly insecure place for the children. But hey, at least they didn't get a divorce.
edit: Also, how is excusing Shan's mom from her culpability in her divorces not allowing her to act irresponsibly without reproach?
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quote:It doesn't work to constantly be looking over their shoulders to make sure they don't screw up. Focusing on the breakup of the marriage misses out on the fact that the important parts are the entry into the marriage and the time within the marriage. Prevent the ending without fixing these two vastly more important parts and you've got a really bad marriage and a terribly insecure place for the children. But hey, at least they didn't get a divorce.
Certainly, I don't disagree that the first step to making divorce undesirable is to choose the right mate. In fact, I agree with most of what you said about making adults take responsibility. Where we disagree is on the "how".
How do you propose we, as a society, convince adults to be responsible and less selfish?
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For one thing, by not saying "The problems with marriage are caused by some external force." and by saying that you can't say that people screwed up when they get divorced.
Our culture pushes irresponsibility and immaturity pretty strongly. It'll take a large change in our culture mores and mytholgies before marriage actually gets better. That's not going to happen if we keep blaming our problems on external factors.
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quote:edit: Also, how is excusing Shan's mom from her culpability in her divorces not allowing her to act irresponsibly without reproach?
I wasn't excusing Shan's mom from *her* divorces. Of course, she is partially culpable in her own divorces. I was excusing her from being at fault in her parents' and in her X's previous and subsequent divorces. If she wasn't a party in the marriage, how could she be at fault?
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No - I wasn't saying that "easy divorce" makes it so that children don't have secure boundaries.
I was comparing the importance of boundaries for children's health, happiness, and good behavior to the importance of boundaries for adults in order to experience the same. In the adults' case, society erects the boundaries (expectations), whereas in the child's case, the parent does.
Okay - one more try, Squick - Lay off my mother. You're being insulting. She's a human being who tried her best. No - the results were not all I could have hoped for, nor were they what she wanted, either.
My biological father failed because he preferred to spend his paycheck on things other than supporting his wife and child. This is her fault?
My adoptive father failed because he attempted to use all the children, especially me, as pawns in his attempts to control my mother. This is her fault?
My first step-father is CLEARLY not to blame for his alcoholism (he was "in recovery" when they married) and his brutality? Silly me - that's her fault, and all of us kids, too, right?
My second step-father of course did nothing wrong when he grew tired of the quarreling over the two youngest children, and sought the company of another woman. That would be her fault, too, I suppose.
I know! Let's lay the blame on the doorstep of Waly Disney for all those silly cartoons that taught girls to be passive pieces in the game called love and marriage . . . yeah, that's what we should do.
MrSquicky - my mom doesn't have a problem with me sharing my perspective on how the choices all my parents made affected me or my siblings.
However, I have a problem with your continuing to emphasize her part in it, without acknowledging all the other associated parts.
And I have a real problem with the lack of respect.
I still agree 100% with you on the issues of selfishness and immaturity.
But I think that if the expectation were for adults - who (AS YOU SAID) should be held to higher standards than children - were for "working together to solve their problems", that this provides a far better model for children than the solution of "it's too hard, I give up, I'm getting out."
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I honestly don't understand how the point about other people's marriages are relevant to Shan's mom. I don't get why people are mentioning them at the same time while talking about how easy divorces are the problem.
I'm not blaming Shan's mom for other people's divorces. I'm blaming them. But, again, it's not the fault of easy divorce, but rather of their own immaturity and irresponsibility.
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Shan mentioned 16 divorces in her post. The point was that it is way too easy to get out of the contract of marriage if one person can be immediately touched by that many divorces.
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Let me try again - it's relevant in that "divorce" does not just affect one family, one person, one generation.
I am trying - very unsuccessfully, too - my apologies - to show how multigenerational divorce is . . . how far-reaching the effects are . . .
Both my grandmothers (now in their 80's) were divorced. They and their spouses re-married. All their children experienced at least one divorce. And all of their children - it just keeps spreading out and branching out.
Then again - maybe this is one of the strongest arguments ever for a variety of marriage contracts - different time periods, different purposes, different expectations -
I don't know . . .
I'm going to head off to slumberland, now, so good night all.
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quote:Okay - one more try, Squick - Lay off my mother. You're being insulting. She's a human being who tried her best. No - the results were not all I could have hoped for, nor were they what she wanted, either.
No she didn't try her best. She made mnay serious mistakes. She could have done much better. She could have tried much harder.
quote:My biological father failed because he preferred to spend his paycheck on things other than supporting his wife and child. This is her fault?
No, but it's her fault that she married someone like this.
quote:My adoptive father failed because he attempted to use all the children, especially me, as pawns in his attempts to control my mother. This is her fault?
She married someone who would abuse her children and you think that she tried the best she could? She was at fault for marrying this guy and for allowing him to abuse her children.
quote:My first step-father is CLEARLY not to blame for his alcoholism (he was "in recovery" when they married) and his brutality? Silly me - that's her fault, and all of us kids, too, right?
Again, no one forced her to marry him. That was her own bad decision. And so on.
quote:However, I have a problem with your continuing to emphasize her part in it, without acknowledging all the other associated parts.
And I have a real problem with the lack of respect.
I'm not emphasizing her part. Nor am am ignoring everything else. I saying that she should have acted responsibly, which she did not. REsponsiblity isn't a zero-sum game.
I work with kids in the Scouts. I try to teach them about responsibility, as the Scouts is one of the few organizations left that, despite its many flaws, tries to teach boys to be men. One of the lessons I try to hammer home is that, when something goes wrong, your job right then is not to blame others for it, but to do what you can to fix it. That's what it means to be responsible, what it means to be an adult.
An adult takes responsiblity for the things that they do and the things that they could have done. An individual's reponsibility is not affected by what other people do, except as it affects the possibilities of what he could do.
Regardless of the many other immature and irresponsible people in this story, your mom ultimately bears full responsiblity for her actions and decisions, just as they bear full responsibility for theirs. She didn't live up to this responsibility and you are continuing with this by excusing her by putting the blame on external factors. That's not something I let the 12 year old kids I volunteer with do.
quote:But I think that if the expectation were for adults - who (AS YOU SAID) should be held to higher standards than children - were for "working together to solve their problems", that this provides a far better model for children than the solution of "it's too hard, I give up, I'm getting out."
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. For responsible adults, it doesn't matter that this option is there. It doesn't make them do anything. It's not the option, but the choice that is the problem and you don't fix the choice by taking away the option. That choice, the "end the marriage" choice is still going to get made. It'll just travel down other channels. To fix marriage, we need to work on fixing the choice.
That is not done, is in fact hindered by putting the blame on external things.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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(((Shan))) thanks for the hydration tip LadyDove... want some gatorade Shan?
We just went through and split up the photos. UGH.
I hate this.
Maybe it is my fault... It never occured to me that he was using his father as a role model and relationship counselor... the guy who's been divorced 3 times himself. I mean... it should have occured to me, but it didn't.
Where would he have gotten the idea that marriage vows are serious stuff from this guy.
My son finally cried for the first time tonight since we told him. He "only wants to stay in this apartment with the family still united."
All he wants for Christmas is for me to be happy again.
quote: She didn't live up to this responsibility and you are continuing with this by excusing her by putting the blame on external factors.
Squick - NOWHERE did I ever say she wasn't responsible. Nor did I say she was. Nor did I point fingers at anyone in the whole sorry mess.
YOU started pointing fingers, assigning guilt, and laying blame.
I merely demanded that you do so equally.
And when you continued in the same vein, I offered additional corroborating evidence that there are indeed two sides (and oh, so many more) to the story.
And - just so you can rest easy - I'd be the adult child in the whole fam-damily that bears the black sheep label for continuing to insist in open that what occurred in our lives was wrong.
I concur with LadyDove - Intelligent people weigh their options when making their choices.
If I park here without paying the meter and get caught, it'll cost $12.00. But if park there and get caught, it'll cost $30.00. So on and so forth . . . choice does not exist in a vacuum.
Edit to add: (((mimsies)))
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Our marriage counselor introduced me to Attachment Theory This is sort of tangential, but it helped me alot in figuring out why I had made many of the choices I made. I also expect it to help me to avoid the same patterns in the future.
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Squicks, Shan, I think you both agree that:
1. "Responsibility isn't a zero-sum game."
2. Shan's mother is responsible for the decisions she made in her relationships.
3. Other people in her mother's life also share responsibility in what happened in those relationships.
I don't think Shan is saying that #3 lessens her mother's responsibility in any way. Perhaps Squicks got that impression because of this comment by Shan:
quote:Welcome to the world of no-fault divorce
I can see how Squicks might have reasonably interpreted that comment a shorthand way of saying "no-fault divorce caused all the problems!" But as Shan has clarified her stance on this matter, we can see that you both agree there is plenty of responsibility to go around.
However, was it necessary to use this kind of language about someone's parent?
quote:You're blaming no fault divorce for your Mom being a big screw-up.
I know you didn't intend to be mean-spirited, Squicks. Based on what I've read in this thread and in the date rape threads, I know you feel very strongly about personal responsibility, and therefore, you do get very offended when you sense people trying to pass the blame to others.
But that is a pretty harsh thing to say about anyone's parent.
Of course, striking the right tone is always a challenge in this type of thread, which is both a public policy debate AND a place where people share very painful and personal memories. I know I've always had a tough time expressing myself in these type of discussions without unintentionally offending people.
quote:The problem was with your Mom and her bad choices, not with no-fault divorce.
As with any complex social problem, there are always multiple factors that we can consider. Just because we are considering the additional factors doesn't necessarily mean we are absolving the actors of their responsibility.
Take gun control for example: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Very true.
If little Johnny stole his father's gun and accidentally killed his sister, then Johnny and his parents are both at fault.
However, do we ignore the fact that loose gun control laws made the firearm available in the first place? Surely, even without a gun, Johnny's disobedient nature and his parent's irresponsible parenting would have manifested itself in some other type of problem. But the gun just made the problem that much worse.
quote:Were your mother a mature person who acted responsibily in her relationships, the ability to get no-fault divorces wouldn't have affected her relationships. Conversely, even if she were unable to get an easy divorce, her poor relationship choices would have very likely had some pretty bad effects on you. You'd get to be in the middle of the fighting all the time.
What about borderline cases? If someone is on the fence about leaving her spouse, would the availability of no-fault divorces sway them one way or the other?
I'll give you an example. My parents have been married for almost forty years. During the first twenty years of their marriage they lived in an Asian country where divorce was socially unacceptable. In the last twenty years they've moved to the United States, where divorce was fairly commonplace.
For as long as I could remember, my parents never got along. Even as a child I could tell that my parents were not meant to be together. However, they never talked about getting a divorce until they moved to the United States and saw that many of their asian friends were divorced, and that it was basically an act with little social stigma attached to it.
Eventually they decided not to get a divorce. But they were tempted, and they were definitely influenced by the social norms of the communities they lived in.
Btw, I also want to commend LadyDove for the way she is shepherding this emotional and personal topic. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I am sorry for all the grief and suffering your mother went through, Shan. I can well understand fierce devotion to and protectiveness of one's mother. I largely agree with Mr. Squicky on this subject, although I would've phrased things differently.
I'll agree that it's possible for a person to be snookered by another person in a marriage, totally without the victim's knowledge. It's even possible in cases when the victim goes out of his way to learn all he can about his future partner-listening and watching carefully all that the future spouse says or does, listening to what friends have to say, and just hearing what enemies have to say, knowing them for a good long time before getting married...
But as it happens repeatedly, as one person serially dates and marries scumbags and jerks...well, yes, those people are still scumbags and jerks, of course. But the question of, "Why do you keep marrying these assholes?" has to come up at some time or another.
I think the answer is that the person made a series of very bad choices, very serious mistakes. People do that sometimes, and although it may be hurtful to say it, and saying so is disrespectful...well, the question occurs.
That's all. People screw up. Sometimes little, sometimes big.
Also kudos to Ladydove, and my apologies to anyone who is upset by this topic-I realize it's deeply personal and painful.
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I'm so sorry, Mimsies. I remember the picture seperation. In the end, I just gave them all to her (after scanning a few of them). I didn't know what to do with them.
She was selfish. And she's paying the price, because that's not the person she wanted to be or the thing she wanted to do to our son, or to me, for that matter. I honestly don't take any delight in the guilt she feels, or in the fact that her husband is a recovering alcoholic and so is emotionally immature, or that she has to deal with his ex-wife (2 marriages were destroyed over this), who's understandably still very bitter. It doesn't make me feel any better. He's good to my son and to her (though I do make sure to keep an eye on things). As others have experienced, it could have been much worse. We share custody and work hard at reassuring our son and loving him and spending time with him. We have even taken him to a therapist together to get some insight. She tries to be a good mother. She made a huge mistake and will now spend the rest of her life paying for it (and knowing that Connor will be paying for it, though we can minimize the pain as much as can be done). In the end, that's all that matters- his welfare.
The pain and hurt and anger can pass, as cliche as that sounds. Don't waste your time or yourself hating and hurting. It won't do anything to him and it will only poison you. As someone said, just rely on your friends, be as involved in your child's life as you possibly can so as to avoid the loneliness. And when it does, know that you'll get through it.
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quote: Where would he have gotten the idea that marriage vows are serious stuff from this guy.
If it's any consolation, I got the idea that marriage vows are serious stuff by looking at my two parents' six marriages and thinking, "Gee, you two are losers."
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I'm also very glad that my mother wasn't forced to list all the bad things my father did just to get away from him. She did her best to keep it amicable, and not to dis him to us (though she never pretended he was ideal, I don't think she demonized him, either).
Don't blame the laws, blame individual's attitudes toward marriage. I knew my mother took marriage very seriously -- if she hadn't, we'd have been out of my father's control much, much sooner. She waited until their counsellors agreed divorce was her only remaining option, that he was dangerous. She got us out before before he ever hit any of us, though it was obvious his rages were headed that way.
In any case, I'm glad she didn't have to demonize him in court. I think it helped me have a cordial relationship with him later.
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LadyDove, that link looks great. I'll read through it more closely after work. And I'll second Beren's commendation for the way you have been shepherdessing this topic. He's right - it's painful and emotional. And you have done a wonderful job -
Beren, you are the voice of sweet reason. Thank you for drawing the two approaches together.
Rakeesh - of course the question gets raised. I have no problem with the question. I do like it to be equally applied. Just my peccadillo.
IanO - thank you for working so hard on helping your son through this time. And you're right - in the end, it's the welfare of the children that matter.
TomD - I laugh; and I mourn. All at once.
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quote:Originally posted by mimsies: Geez, I don't know if this thread is therapeutic or if it is pushing me over the edge... I can't stop crying
Yeah, me too, but this thread has truly been helpful to me, thanks to all the thoughtful posters. My 14 year-old son has been reading it too, I think it's helped him.
Mimsies, I've been thinking about you ever since you first posted about your seperation. Things do get easier in time, but it is so hard to see our children suffer.
LadyDove, you are awesome. dawnmaria, you give me hope. Shan, your honesty is so admirable. Stay strong. IanO, your son is so lucky to have you!
TomDavidson, thanks for lightening th emood with some humour! you give me hope, too, that some day my kids will be able to laugh about this...
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quote:Originally posted by ctm: dawnmaria, you give me hope.
I don't know about all that now. I still have my bitter moments. Like yesterday when I got the Christmas card from my Dad that couldn't have been more generic. NO salutation, NO Love, just his first name , my step mother's and "the girls". It could have been to a business associate it was so generic. It didn't bother my little sister. She says he's busy. I might be too busy to send the pics of his grandbaby in his card! But then I'd feel like a sh*t. The only thing I don't think I've ever been able to put behind me is I still have an innate need for this man's approval and it pisses me off that I feel I need it. I too would like to thank you Ladydove. This thread has given me a lot to think about and I feel I am not alone in my feelings. Sometimes I wonder is it "just me" that feels these things and now I know I am not alone.
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This irritates me. How can you know that? You weren't there. You weren't her. How can you know what she tried or what she didn't or what she was capable of? If one party tries her hardest and the other party doesn't care, I'm sorry, but she can't carry the whole relationship forever. At that point, it's not a relationship! And it's not fair to expect that.
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quote: But the question of, "Why do you keep marrying these assholes?" has to come up at some time or another.
I think this type of question is at the core of most of our relationship issues and illustrates Shan’s point about divorce being an “inherited” trait. Btw, I’ve really enjoyed your thoughts in this thread.
Tom,
quote:I got the idea that marriage vows are serious stuff by looking at my two parents' six marriages and thinking, "Gee, you two are losers."
My parents didn’t divorce, but I had this same reaction to their parenting “skills”. At the age of 8, I started reading child psychology books and keeping a diary of how *not* to be a parent. I wonder what makes some people emulate what they hate and others use that same hate as a kickboard to become the person they want to be?
Olivet,
quote:Don't blame the laws, blame individual's attitudes toward marriage.
I’m not looking to make the laws any tougher. For instance, the law requires that abuse be chronic before it will prevent or limit a child’s exposure to an abusive parent. If I had had to wait until I could prove a chronic pattern before the legal separation, it may have been too late.
What I’m looking for are social consequences and frowning on elective divorces. I’d like to see divorce portrayed as a way of surviving rather than an avaenue to thriving.
Shan, That sight is not as directed and easy to read as I’d like. The worksheets I learned from are in PDF format and, if you’re interested, I can give you directions on how to get to the link.
ctm, It’s so hard to know how much to share with the kids and at what age. In my case, I’m trying to give my boys the tools to cope with the situation without dumping any of my baggage on them. I’ve found that one of the things that helps them most is talking about other families going through the same problems. It’s a way to address the issues without it becoming too personal.BTW, I think it's important to let the kids broach the topics since mine are so young.
dawnmaria,
quote: I feel I am not alone in my feelings.
Having never had sisters, I was always at a loss for what the whole “sisterhood” thing was about. Since the separation, I’ve shared my story and listened to so many stories that are *just* like mine. I can meet a long known acquaintance, begin to share what’s going on in my life, and by the end the talk we are friends. We are sisters. We have suffered through and survived. We are not alone. You are not alone.
posted
KQ, She married an abusive drunk who she then allowed to abuse her children. I get that it's not nice to say bad things about people (or at least ones that our posters arren't bashing behind their backs) but that doesn't mean that this isn't right or useful. At some point you have to actually say that people did something wrong, even if it hurts someone's feelings. That's part of being an adult too.
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I feel I should emphasize that I am not calling Shan mother a bad or evil person. Responsbility and maturity are not matters of good or evil (or intelligence for that matter).
It's easy for me to be responsible. I was gifted (through no merit of my own) with a very warm, loving, and stable upbringing upbring by two wondeful parents as well as a very supportive extended family. I didn't have any of the burdens and disadvantages that Shan's mom had. I strongly believe that a person's moral nature can only be understand by taking where they started into account. It's entirely possible, on an absolute scale, that Shan's mom is a better person than I am.
Maturity and responsibility, however, don't exist on this sliding scale. There is no weighting based on where you start. There's an objective standard and Shan mom failied this standard. She did not behave maturely or responsibily and no amount of being offended that someone would say this is going to change that.
She would not have behaved maturely if she were unable to get divorced. She (and her husband) still would have failed in living up to the responsibilities that go along with being married and having kids. However, they would have been stuck in a very bad marriage, which would still have left a great many emotional scars on Shan and her siblings.
This was not one of the potential "borderline cases" where possibly the inability to get an easy divorce would have led to growth in the relationship.
Legal adulthood provides people with many, many freedoms, which many use irresponsibly and really screw themselves and others up with. Denying people these freedoms and treating them as much as possible as if they are children isn't a good long term solution (although in come cases - gun control, for example - you can make the case that it's a necessary one).
In an ideal world, the freedom one has would be tied accurately to their level of maturity and responsibility. That's neither possible nor anything but a really scary idea in this imperfect world of ours, but I don't think should stop us from expecting people to use their freedoms responsibly and to accept responsibilty when they messed up, instead of blaming it on other things or people.
I don't like divorce. I'm not advocating that easy divorce is a good idea. What I'm saying is that blaming "We allow easy divorce." for the problems with marriages not only ignores that actual rampant immaturity and irresponsibility that is the real root cause, but also fosters the "blame external factors" attitude that is part and parcel with these things.
Rather than making it hard to break up a marriage, why aren't people suggesting we make it hard for peopel to get into one? Or perhaps tie how hard it is to your divorced status. Something like the first one is easy but it gest progressively more difficult to get married as you get divorced and try to remarry? At what point should we step in and expect people to prove their maturity and commitment before they get married and why isn't this a more natural idea to combat these problems that "Don't let people get divorced."?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Rather than making it hard to break up a marriage, why aren't people suggesting we make it hard for peopel to get into one? Or perhaps tie how hard it is to your divorced status. Something like the first one is easy but it gest progressively more difficult to get married as you get divorced and try to remarry? At what point should we step in and expect people to prove their maturity and commitment before they get married and why isn't this a more natural idea to combat these problems that "Don't let people get divorced."?
I would buy into anyone of the above ideas. They all make it socially less attractive to divorce. Maybe the problem is semantics. I say, "Make it less attractive to divorce." You say, "Make it more attractive for people to stay together." In either case, marriage is taken more seriously.
Though I like your emphasis on the willing commitment, I think that the "willing" part needs a nudge with how far the pendulum has swung toward divorce being a viable option to responsibility. I think that a carrot and stick approach is often very effective.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mr. Card's column really struck home with me. My parents divorced in 1979 when I was 10 and my sister was eight. There was no infidelity between my parents, no physical abuse, just a long-standing series of disagreements and fights that I've spent decades listening to them still hash out.
I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could have been had they stayed married, who I would be. When my folks divorced, my Dad was a successful real estate broker, my Mom was a stay at home mom. I rode to school in a brand new jaguar, we had a nice four bedroom home in a nice neighborhood and all the trappings of a classic American family. Except my parents slept in different rooms, didn't take meals together and fought about anything that came up.
And one day, my sister and I got off the bus and couldn't get in the front door of the house. Both of our parents cars were home and all the doors were locked. We could hear them arguing and no one would come to the door no matter how many times we rang the bell. We sat on the front porch and waited. Then one of the garage doors opened and my Dad pulled the car out. He waved goodbye to us and left. A few minutes later my Mom unlocked the doors and let us in. They had decided to divorce then; they were 33 and 29, married for 10 years.
Within a year, my father had lost everything and had to move back home with his parents. My Mom had to take a minimum wage job. All the money was gone, eaten up by attorney's fees.
The divorce was nasty, the child custody battle was worse, with the attorneys and judges pulling us children in to the proceedings over the voiced protests of my parents. Cousins and distant relatives waited outside the courtroom to cuss and scream at the parent on the opposite side of the fight as they came out.
It was pure hell. We had just moved to a new town the year before the divorce and I had just started going to a second school since I arrived, one across town from my home. My grades went into the toilet and I started becoming a problem student and, it pains me so much to admit it now, a bully. Or at least it's the reputation I got. No one seemed to realize I spent a lot of time pounding on the kids who had been pounding on the class victims before. Whatever.
Man, it flat out messed me up and did a fair number on my sister, too. She stayed out of trouble, however. Two years after the divorce, they demoted me out of the gifted and talented program and pretty much labeled me as that day's equivalent of an "at-risk" kid. That pretty much stuck with me through high school where I was lumped as the underachiever C student who the guidance counselors couldn't waste their time on to talk about colleges.
Blah, blah, blah, cry me a river. That's the kind of crap I carried on my shoulders until I was about 23 or so. Then I realized something very, very important. My parents had been young, stupid and lived in a time when divorce was the popular answer instead of working things out. They did what they had to do and I got slammed, not by them, but by the process.
I realized that, crap, was I going to carry this dreg around with me for the rest of my life, always dragging it out as an excuse for why I wasn't happy or wasn't accomplishing anything? Was I basically going to go back to that front porch when I was 10 years old and couldn't get into the house that was locked by my parents' divorce?
I think when I put that baggage down and realized that I would work hard to make sure my children never had to carry it either (and we can hand our baggage right directly to them if we aren't careful), that I became an adult and began to move in my life.
Yeah, divorce sucks, it's selfish, it hurts innocent children. Wish I had better advice for those going through it, but I do know it takes two for a marriage but only one for a divorce. Sometimes it's just a sorry old world. But try to be kind to the kids and never let the divorce be bigger than they are.
posted
I seem to be butting into a lot of conversations with my 2 cents late in the game, lately. Sorry about that.
I'm the child of two second marriages: My mother's first marriage was annulled, my father's first wife died of cancer.
While I think there's some merit in what Card has to say, I think (perhaps in part because his response is based to studies, which tend to be hypothesis-positive or hypothesis-negative) that in one respect his response is rather too black-and-white, and in another, while his intentions are good, I think his attention could be better directed.
The black-and-white: While I certainly agree that physical or sexual abuse is cause for divorce and getting the children away from the abusive partner as quickly as possible, I think there are divorces that don't fall under those lines that still aren't as simple as one or both people deciding to call it quits to pursue happiness elsewhere. I think there are marriages that grow cold, distant, and hostile without anyone ever laying a finger on anyone else, and one has to consider that there's a very real possibility that divorce is preferable to living in a home that's already like a war zone. Which is not to say that people of good conscience shouldn't seek help and counseling and every reasonable step to save a marriage, especially if there are children to consider. But I don't think every marriage under stress is salvagable, even if both members might try. And I think in as much as the recently divorced are more in need of the support of their communities than before, to shun them while third parties try to parcel out blame will probably do more harm than good.
As to the attention of the piece: I can't help but wonder if maybe the relative ease of marriage isn't at least as much of a problem as the ease of divorce. So many people enter marriage without the most basic skills of conflict management and negotiation, coming in on the "hormonal rush" that Card mentions. A lifelong commitment is a hard thing to understand, even without the glorified versions we see in fiction. We encourage people to get married, we often pressure people if they haven't married by a certain age. Perhaps we'd do a greater service if we counselled people to wait and watch and learn. We deal in lacy photo albums and images of old people watching sunsets from porch swings, and don't dwell on the sick one AM feeling that you didn't really say what you wanted to say as well as you could have, that you didn't really make yourself understood.
Part of our current situation with divorce, I think, is a culture that comprehends divorce and the temporary better than marriage and the enduring.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
My parents divorced around when I was 14 (my brother was 12). My dad was hit with my mom's infidelity (he is now my step-dad) and his mother dying in the same few months, and he had a nervous breakdown. Not good times; it took several years for my dad to get back to somewhat normal (including finding the right meds).
That said, the first thing that came out of their mouths was that it wasn't our (me and my brother's fault). The divorce took some time, in part because my dad was mentally ill, and it wasn't always pretty, but they both made sure we always knew they loved us, and that we were not the divisive issue. It was about as amicable as could be hoped.
I think we turned out well. My dad even goes to Thanksgiving dinner at my mom's sometimes. They are friendly, even if it is a bit weird (especially for my dad). I have decent relationships with all 3 parents.
I'm married now, and I'm going to do my best by her and me. It's funny though, the implicit stigma on divorced kids. My wife (then-girlfriend) went on a 12 hour car ride to Indiana with her parents to go visit her sister in college. We'd been dating not quite 2 years, but had been living together for 8 months or so. Her mom kept saying that she should be prepared that I, being a child of divorce, could have commitment issues. This was difficult for my wife, because at the time I had already bought the ring (we shopped together), and I was waiting for a romantic time to make it official; (giving it to her right after purchase, with her completely aware, would have been anti-climactic, so I waited a couple months ).
quote: Man, it flat out messed me up and did a fair number on my sister, too.
Sounds like the king of understatements.
What an awful time you had. That was almost 30 years ago and it still seems remarkably fresh in your memory. So much for time healing all wounds.
quote:I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could have been had they stayed married, who I would be.
Did you come to any conclusions?
quote: I think when I put that baggage down and realized that I would work hard to make sure my children never had to carry it either (and we can hand our baggage right directly to them if we aren't careful), that I became an adult and began to move in my life.
You are strong to have come to this conclusion on your own.
Can you think of anything your parents could have done within the context of the divorce that would have made it easier for you and your sister? And please forgive or ignore this question if it seems inappropriate, but what was harder on you guys, the divorce or the drastic change in lifestyle?
Sterling,
quote: As to the attention of the piece: I can't help but wonder if maybe the relative ease of marriage isn't at least as much of a problem as the ease of divorce. So many people enter marriage without the most basic skills of conflict management and negotiation, coming in on the "hormonal rush" that Card mentions.
You and Squicky are on the same page.
I definitely didn’t enter marriage in a “hormonal rush”. I lived with my spouse for 8 years before getting married and it was another 3 years before we had our first child. It was at the point that our first child was born that things started going downhill. What we never did was learn conflict resolution. I just gave in or got quiet when we had an issue. For me, nothing was important enough to fight over until I was responsible for another human being. If I’d taken responsibility for sticking-up for myself early in the relationship, the relationship wouldn’t have born children. Bleh, hindsight is always 20/20.
In any case, I agree that the marriage counseling and conflict resolution education should go on before marriage.
Bokonon,
quote: It's funny though, the implicit stigma on divorced kids. My wife (then-girlfriend) went on a 12 hour car ride to Indiana with her parents to go visit her sister in college. We'd been dating not quite 2 years, but had been living together for 8 months or so. Her mom kept saying that she should be prepared that I, being a child of divorce, could have commitment issues.
You’ve hit on my only real problem with attaching socially negative aspects to divorce. I hate the idea of advocating something that will make the life of the child-survivor of a divorce more difficult. Of course, the idealized hope is that if divorce becomes less prevalant, there will be fewer children who may have to bear the stigma.
Mama Squirrel, I think I’ve told you this before, but knowing how well you turned out helped me through those first bad days after the split. I kept thinking, "I’ve got a chance that if I stay healthy and help my kids in every way I can, they can enter a loving and healthy relationship just like Mike and Connie." This thought and you and Pop reaching out to me and the boys made a big difference in July and August.
I still think about the conversation in my kitchen where Pop was talking about the relationship of God and the church being like the relationship between a husband and wife. It made me examine myself and my relationship and helped me make sure that I had done everything I could short of putting my boys and myself in danger. His words kept me there to the last day. Though I must admit, I look at you and Pop and marvel that married life can be that good.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Thanks LadyDove. We think about you often. I am sorry we haven't been in contact lately.
I still remember something the counselor mentioned at one of our pre-marital counseling sessions. He mentioned how some people he counseled wanted to change the vows. Instead of "till death do us part" or "for as long as we both shall live," they wanted to say "until it can no longer be." It didn't sound to us like the type of thing you would say if you were going into marriage without having divorce as an option from the beginning.
This thread and breyerchic04's landmark brought some memories up. It was the question about her first memory. My first memory is at the court. My brother and I were taken into the judges chambers where he asked us who we wanted to live with. I was about 3 1/2. Not the best of first memories.
I do think that because of my parents' divorce that I am very aware that marriage takes work. It isn't easy. I know that with two kids (almost 3) that it gets harder to find spousal alone time. It is something we have been trying to work harder at lately.
Before dating Pop I actually went to pre-engagement counseling with another person. I ended up breaking up with him not long after we finished. Apparently (according to him), he and the pastor agreed that I had commitment issues. He was the one who wasn't even sure God wanted him to ever get married. There were many reasons, not one of which was commitment issues, why I broke up with him. I see it as an example of the stigma associated with children of divorce.
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posted
I wonder what someone could find out if they did a similar study in Ireland. Wasn't divorce illegal there until recently? I wonder how some of those families turned out with parents locked into marriage even if they wanted out.
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quote:Originally posted by human_2.0: I haven't had the time to read the whole thread and article, just snips. But I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
My parents are seperated and didn't divorce. I'm still glad they aren't divorced. My mom has divorced parents and she has trama stories that I don't. I'm much more emotionally healthy than she is and even she admits that too.
I just don't think having fighting parents comes anywhere near the torture of being abandoned, and my parents sure knew how to fight.
Just my experience and 2 cents.
That is a sensible and in my mind a correct approach to living the life you have, and not wishing yourself sick over what might have been.
My parents were dysfunctional, and stayed together 'for the kids' ... to our detriment. When they finally seperated - I was 17 - it was a relief. For a long time I blamed my mother for everything wrong in life. After therapy and growth I began to understand that they simply were wrong for each other, and that both of them were so wrapped up in their own dramas that they actually didn't realize what they were doing to us. I have forgiven them, and worked on healing the child within me. I have a harmonious long distance relationship with both of them now, and my life is much better for that distance.
I married the wrong person. He drank, and gambled, and was abusive. I divorced him. My ex was bitter. He and his family did their best to withhold support from us, and were the source of frequent turmoil. I raised two children under difficult circumstances as a single parent. I made my mistakes, but I can say that my children are better off and more stable than I was at their ages. It wasn't easy, but it was worth it.
Sometimes you get all the good breaks: a stable family, economic stability, and parents who both express their love for you and put your welfare first. Sometimes you are dealt a more challenging hand in life. It is what you do with what you are dealt that is most important.
I became interested in genealogy a few years ago. In my research I found many of the same relationship patterns that my generation dealt with in my ancestors' relationships. The thread of instability traveled back MANY generations. These relationship patterns and instabilities had been passed on from generation to generation. I had read about this happening in textbooks, but witnessing it in my research was different. That was an important realization.
So, what do you do when you are given lemons? You make lemonade.
Becoming a responsible adult is a choice. In my early thirties I made a conscious choice to grow up, and accept responsibility for my life. I chose to forgive my past and move on with my life. I've done my best to pass those lessons I learned on to my children, hopefully to the betterment of their children. I think we may have broken the cycle, or at least we are well on our way to doing that.
Posts: 337 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
LadyDove, Honestly, I try not to carry my parents' divorce around on my sleeve, it's really just not worth it and it can be too easily used as a crutch or an excuse for one's own life. Of course, that column really brought it to the forefront, as do the holidays generally when my wife and I get pulled this way and that from my Dad to my Mom, or more specifically between my grandparents, who divorced back in 1989.
Do I have any conclusions of who I could have been or who I would have been? Heck, it's just nebulous ponderings isn't it? In truth, what I feel it did more than anything is put my development on hold until my parents could get back to being adults for a while. And really, that's a lot to ask of a 10-year old kid.
I guess what I'd have to say is that anyone who is looking at going through a divorce needs to look at how difficult the road ahead of them is going to be. And then they need to sit down with their spouse and ask this very, very important question: We can choose to walk down this road but do we want to MAKE our children walk down it? Your children have no say in whether it happens or not, they can't back out one day and say "Hey, I made a mistake and I want to have a family again."
Let's face it, both parents really need to think it through before going through it and decide what they want to put their kids through. Will the marriage be rougher on them than the divorce?
Heck, I can't answer that question for anyone, every divorce is different, right? Is it really different in the eyes of the kids, though?
Listen, I could try to polish it as much as possible but every divorce is going to hurt the child involved in ways that you can't imagine unless you've had it happen to you. All of a sudden, their parents aren't together anymore. All of a sudden they don't have a home anymore -- they've got Mom's house and Dad's house. All of a sudden the holidays are no longer about them anymore, but about who they are going to be with and on what day.
And all of a sudden, they have to deal, daily, with the very adult issues that Mommy and Daddy couldn't deal with together anymore.
Personally, I think if you're about to get divorced and abuse isn't an issue in the divorce, then both parents ought to read what I just wrote.
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quote:Originally posted by Sopwith: Listen, I could try to polish it as much as possible but every divorce is going to hurt the child involved in ways that you can't imagine unless you've had it happen to you. All of a sudden, their parents aren't together anymore. All of a sudden they don't have a home anymore -- they've got Mom's house and Dad's house. All of a sudden the holidays are no longer about them anymore, but about who they are going to be with and on what day.
And all of a sudden, they have to deal, daily, with the very adult issues that Mommy and Daddy couldn't deal with together anymore.
I read that part to my kids. My daughter (age 12) said, "That's perfect." My son (14) said "Sopwith is 100% right."
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posted
I was staying with a twenty-something friend of mine when his parents announced they were getting a divorce. He was living and sustaining himself on his own, by then, but I still remember he came in looking a little like he'd just seen a traffic accident. He put on a tape of the Muppets and watched an entire show before he told my wife and I about the announcement.
He was an adult, and as he said "my parents have never exactly been a 'cute couple'", but it still clearly hurt.
On the other hand, he's said lately that his father has been much happier, much more open, and much more "of a person" since the divorce. And his mother is doing things she couldn't have easily done, within their marriage (she's a recent religious convert.)
It's definitely not an easy question. And I truly hope it's one I never have to face.
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posted
I read the article a few weeks ago. I plan to read the book, although I have already read other books by children of divorce.
Sopwith, your last post was excellent. The problem is that some people cannot accept (despite the extensive research) that THEIR divorce will actually harm their kids as much as people are telling them it will.
My ex still thinks the issues our son is having (and has been having off-and-on for years) are unrelated to the divorce and subsequent lack of consistent time spent with his father. (And mind, I think my ex is a good dad, and he spends quite a bit of time with the kids, probably 25-30% of their out-of-school time. But it's not the same as getting to see both parents every day, and it never will be.) My oldest is just now getting to "ok" or better most of the time (not all the time -- she IS a pre-teen after all ); and my youngest, who is too little to really remember a time when she didn't shuttle back-and-forth between parents, shows distinct effects as well.
I have three kids in therapy now. All because my ex was (and is) somehow convinced that divorce would not be as bad for them as I (or various other people, including both the therapists we saw during the year after he walked out) kept saying it would be.
(The problems with our marriage came from both of us. The choice to divorce instead of continuing to work on them was all his.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I've been suicidal for a long time, most people here know that. And I'm 17. I've grown up with my parents arguing. Mostly about religion. My mom flat out told me the arguments were my fault. She has been very nasty at times- she wont even TRY to stop smoking for the sake of her children, and doesn't really care that everything she believes my dad has "done" is a lie. Example: She believes that my dad had an affair with a woman in the church who lives in our town and had children(older than me, but I knew them) in the band with me. See, I KNOW this isn't true. The times she thought they were acting inappropraitely- I was THERE. NOTHING happened. But my mom won't believe anyone. My dad broke off his friendship with this woman five years ago, and hasn't seen her or spoken to her since. It was just a friendship. But my mom doesn't even want him near the church. Any church, pretty much. THere are a lot of other problems, too. But that's not the point.
The struggle I have is this. My parents saw lawyers about a month ago. I know they could work out their issues if my mother would just TRY- she knows what she needs to do to make this work, but she refuses to do it, not even for me and my sister. I'VE done more to save her amrriage than she has. But I've gotten so sick of her bashing my faith, tearing apart everything I do as "not good enough" (this includes straight A's and things like Honor Bands and first chair in the high school wind ensemble). My sister is going back to college next week, and she doesn't plan on coming home again. My sister and I are(or were) really close. SO I've lost that too.
I don't know whether I want my parents together. They fight when they're together, but I love them too much to see them apart. My mom doesn't really have any friends. SHe doesn't leave the house and she's always depressed. I know that if my parents divorced, this would only get worse. As it stands, I don't think my mom will live to see her grandchildren grow up. My sister is 20, but she doesn't plan on marrying until well after college. My dad, my sister, and I are really the only good influences my mom has. I don't want to see her life go down the drain because of something stupid like what church I go to.
Do I abandon my church and my friends there(and I mean, no more contact with any of them, period- that's what she's asking) and keep my parents together and happy, or do I chose the selfish route and watch my mother die?
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Tinros, the choices your parents make are theirs, not yours. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR MARRIAGE. They are.
And whatever choice you make about your life is NOT what will save -- or not -- their marriage. Their choices (it sounds like it may be mostly your mother's but I don't really know) are.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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You see, rivka, it was MY choice that got my dad to start going back to church after 20 some years of abandoning God altogether. I'm the one that kept him there, that started the whole disagreement. It's my responses to my mother's questions about what I believe that are making or breaking her. How do I know I'm doing the right thing? Do I answer or stay silent? I don't know which would cause more harm.
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Tinros, it is really, really important that you talk about this with an adult you trust -- preferably a pastor or school counselor, or maybe a teacher you trust.
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I have, rivka. They just told me to be the best daughter I can be. In other words, obedient, and keep my nose out of it. And you know, I'd really like my nose kept out of it. But my mom keeps bringing my nose back into it. Is there something attractive about my nose? Just kidding.
Tom, My dad started going to church because I needed a ride and he didn't have anything better to do. He asked me questions, I explained things to him, and he decided to become a Christian again. I f I hadn't started wanting to go to church, none of this would have happened.
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); and my youngest, who is too little to really remember a time when she didn't shuttle back-and-forth between parents, shows distinct effects as well.
