I apologize if someone has already started a thread on this, but I just read it and agree wholeheartedly with the essay.
This essay hits very close to home for me since my husband and I separated in July.
I was very unhappy in the marriage for years, but refused to leave because I don’t believe in divorce as an option in marriage. My family doesn’t divorce and the people I spend time with are, for the most part, part of intact families. Sadly, my beliefs were naïve and I finally left when I realized I couldn’t protect my children without the court’s help.
Despite appreciating the fact that separation was an option, I am just as appreciative of the people who love me enough to say that if my husband gets better and I choose to bring him back into our lives, they will accept him. They support my decision to leave and (in the case of my family) don’t like my husband, but if there is a possibility that the family could safely live under one roof again, they will make him feel welcome again.
The only thing I see missing from the essay is the idea that many of the problems that lead to divorce were present when the couple was dating. IMO, not only is each of us responsible for doing everything in our power to uphold the contract of marriage, but we are each ultimately responsible for our choice of a mate. In hindsight, I feel completely responsible for marrying and bringing children into the world with a man whom I knew was damaged. To justify my error, I thought that the good outweighed the bad, that age would mellow him and that between his family and me, we could heal him. I was wrong and I shouldn’t have gambled with something as precious as the lives of children.
The portion of the essay that I found unbearably sad was this quote:
quote:… two-thirds of divorces end low-conflict marriages, in which the parents divorce because they are unhappy or unfulfilled, or have other problems that are not seriously threatening.
I don’t see how people with children can put their own happiness above the mental health of their children. We have a responsibility to lose sleep when the kids are sick, turn-off the TV when they need our help or attention, get them to school and pick them up on time, teach them respect and give them respect. Why do people assume that we don’t have a responsibility to defer our need for gratification in order to provide security and stability for our children?
quote: "Quite aside from the fact that the proportion of emotionally troubled adults is around three times as great among those whose parents divorced as among those from intact families, no amount of success in adulthood can compensate for an unhappy childhood or erase the memory of the pain and confusion of the divided world of the child of divorce" (p. xx.)
My question isn’t regarding those who divorce due to safety or mental health reasons. In those cases, I’m sure that there is an overall increase in security and happiness for the children when the abusive parent is removed from the home. My question is about those people who don’t think that their lives are bad, but believe that their lives could be better with a different or no partner.
It reminds me of when I was little and my parents chose to spend money on a stereo when we didn't have any food in the house. Frankly, IMO when we make the decision to have children, we give up the right to be selfish.
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posted
I haven't read that article, the snipets suggest it is what I expected, but it seems that one just cannot win. If you do not get a divorce, then the kids will be aware of the coldness and arguing that their parents are having and be traumatized by that. If you get a divorce, people will accuse you of being selfish and not thinking of the children. A person just can't win. These are personal issues that vary from one person to the next and you can't just use some sweeping sort of statement like all children whose parents divocred will suffer as adults, because that is not always the case. Because in some cases it might be better for the children. It is hard to decide and up to the individual person. If people have exhausted every effort and have tried their best and it still doesn't work, than what other solution is there? Whatever people do, they need love and compassion to get them through it and not judgement...
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quote:These are personal issues that vary from one person to the next and you can't just use some sweeping sort of statement like all children whose parents divocred will suffer as adults, because that is not always the case. Because in some cases it might be better for the children.
Well, like you said, you haven't read the article...
Which did not say that children are invariably better off if the parents stay together. Also, children of divorce do suffer, in every case, period...just because divorce is never a good thing. Sometimes it's the best thing, in a given situation (beating, drug addiction, cheating are obvious possibilities), but it's never something the child will be happy about. At best, the divorce will be a positive ending to an unhappy relationship, which the child will remember.
Incidentally, the article is about a book of an actual child of divorce, so before you jump on the 'rush to judgement' soapbox, consider that.
People rarely try their very best.
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posted
My parents divorced when I was 9. I know I was affected by it. I know my adult life and relationships have all been colored by it. I also know had my parents stayed together, I would have grown up in a miserable situation. I would not have seen how strong a woman my mother is because she would not have had to raise us mostly alone. She would have stayed with a cheating husband and they would have driven in little barbs each day into each other and we would have had to suffer that with them. Or worse, think that was a normal marriage. It's kind of funny. I was remembering a little creche I had in my room as a kid today and asked my mother if she remembered it. She said she did. I asked if it was around Christmas when they told us they were divorcing and she said it was around New Years and I told her that made sense because I remember going into my room and looking at the creche after they told us. My Mom got real quiet and told me how sorry she was about all of it. I told her basically what I just said here, I think we were better off even though it was very hard. I do think parents should try like hell to make things work. My parents did try after that to stay together for us but it only lasted 3 more months. Some people are just disaterous together. Both my parents went on to marry other people that they are very happy with and have been married close to 20 years in both cases. I told my Mom she was meant to marry my Dad so that I and my Sister could be born. You can't resent forever. I've tried. Sometimes you have to just accept somethings won't work and move on. I just got the book OSC wrote the article on from the library and am really looking forward to reading it. I think I have finally found a good place in my relationship with my Dad. I can't forgive but I can let go a little. I can try to move on. I hope to see what others have to say in this book.
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posted
I found the essay thought-provoking, also, LadyDove.
It took a divorce (and eventually a one-year restraining order) to get my former spouse to get serious about the safety issues present in our family due to his behaviors.
He has really changed on so many levels now. We co-parent fairly successfully. I don't know if the changes would stick if we were together - and after repeated promises to change during our marriage, it obviously took a very big whammy of a wake-up call to convince him to consider what he was doing.
I am delighted that he has cleaned his act up, and is capable of parenting our son in a responsible, loving fashion. I am unwilling to reconsider the option of reuniting. Frankly, it terrifies me.
And you nailed it on the head, LadyDove.
"but we are each ultimately responsible for our choice of a mate. In hindsight, I feel completely responsible for marrying and bringing children into the world with a man whom I knew was damaged. To justify my error, I thought that the good outweighed the bad, that age would mellow him and that between his family and me, we could heal him. I was wrong and I shouldn’t have gambled with something as precious as the lives of children."
Marrying him, hoping that our relationship would allow the safety and trust for change, was entirely wrong. And unfair - not only to the child involved, but to us as thinking/feeling adults.
I think a little "judgement" is needed in the whole issue of relationships (marriage and divorce) - NOT as in "shame on you" but as in "thoughtfully considering what we are choosing to embark on" and planning ahead a little. Too many couples (MYSELF INCLUDED) have acted in a hasty fashion.
Thankfully, the old adage "Marry in haste; repent at leisure," no longer holds true for those folks that are in dangerous relationships. That IS a blessing for our times.
It just seems that the pendulum has swung so far to the other side in giving the option to just say when the going gets tough to move on to the next adventure, that the idea of sticking anything out is pretty foreign to us in this culture. In so many areas - not just relationships.
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quote:But the core question remained: In cases where the children's actual lives or health are not in danger (i.e., where there's no abuse or neglect), is it better for children to remain in an unhappy but intact marriage, or to have the conflicted family broken up?
I think it's dangerous to suggest that a war between parents, even when both do care deeply for the children, does not affect the children. Naturally, there are degrees to this but I cannot imagine a single child who does not burst into tears, externally or internally, when his or her parents start fighting, or when the do not speak to one another, or when they say "your mother".
quote:"Quite aside from the fact that the proportion of emotionally troubled adults is around three times as great among those whose parents divorced as among those from intact families, no amount of success in adulthood can compensate for an unhappy childhood or erase the memory of the pain and confusion of the divided world of the child of divorce"
The problem with this statement is the inherent selection bias of the study. Of course, children of families of divorce are going to be more likely to be unhappy adults, not only because they went through divorce but because even before the divorce the child existed in a bad situation. I would also like to suggest (only suggest) that one (or both) of the adults within the relationship, who becomes "bored" as the reason is given in the article, may be 'flawed' from the beginning, and may cause the children to be brought up in a peculiar and harmful way from the very start. The marriage only reaches a critical breaking point much later, after the damage to the child has already occurred, thus also leaving them less able to deal with the divorce when it comes, especially if both parents have disfunctional elements.
The children of marriages that remained intact are more likely to be the children who two perfectly functional human beings who are more capable of bringing up successful children who, supposing through some twist of strange fate caused their parents to seperate, would be better equipped to deal with the divorce.
I'm not suggesting that divorce is not harmful. I'm saying that the study itself has some largely meaningless elements that I feel like should be at least mentioned in the article.
quote:Children are voiceless: they don't write books, they don't vote, they don't usually get interviewed on television....
Children aren't voiceless. We were all children once. When I think about the grown-up children I know, I can't see any correlation between their functionality and the divorce rate. In fact, children of "happy" marriages can be just as messed up as "unhappy" marriages, because I do not believe that the relationship between the adults is the only one we should take into account.
These messed-up grown-up children I am thinking of might have benefitted from a divorce, they might not have- in many cases their parents have quite a good relationship, as marriages go. But I can say that they'd be a lot more functional if their parents or parent hadn't had the issues that he or she or they did. It wasn't the marriage that was the problem, rather the direct adult to child relationship.
EDIT: I also know there to be a form of moral element to this article, and I respect the beliefs that drive it; however, I question the science.
quote:. It is the job of adults to choose mates who will be good parents;
I agree with this statement to some degree. If you marry and intend to raise children you must have some idea that your spouse will be able to not only love but also nuture his or her children. However, I do not believe that "damaged" grown-ups cannot learn to be good parents, or should not at least give it a try.
However, I do not believe that divorce is the problem here.
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quote:Why do people assume that we don’t have a responsibility to defer our need for gratification in order to provide security and stability for our children?
I think there's some vagueness regarding the definition of "gratification" that clouds the issue, perhaps.
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But I think the study only shows one point: children whose parents are divorced are affected by it, and often in a negative way.
What it doesn't show is that those same children would have been any better off if their parents had stayed together.
I think most people would agree that a marriage where both parents put in work and effort is better than a divorce. But is a marriage where one (or both) partner(s) is not putting in effort, where parents are fighting continously in front of their children better than divorce?
I think the articles assumes that an "intact" marriage will be one which is fundamentally happy. I don't think that's the case.
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posted
I was much better off with my father out of the picture. He was an alcoholic.
The man didn't even show up for his mother's funeral. All his siblings were there. i was there and so was my mom. He couldn't be bothered.
I don't even know if he's still alive. Sometimes i wonder about him, but for the most part, don't think much about him. Sometimes it's better if the parents go their seperate ways.
He moved out when I was three and I haven's seen him in almost 30 years.
Posts: 4569 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I'm not sure why people are bringing up addicted, violent, or unfaithful people in regards to this article and its subject. It's said in each, repeatedly, that those three issues are of course perfectly reasonable grounds for divorce.
quote:I think most people would agree that a marriage where both parents put in work and effort is better than a divorce. But is a marriage where one (or both) partner(s) is not putting in effort, where parents are fighting continously in front of their children better than divorce?
But imogen, don't you think it's possible that one or both parents in cases like that aren't putting in effort because they believe that, in the long run, divorce isn't such a bad thing?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Syn, I think that Rakeesh answered your post well.
dawnmaria,
quote:Both my parents went on to marry other people that they are very happy with and have been married close to 20 years in both cases.
Did the remarriage help you develop a healthy relationship model or did you resent the remarriage?
Shan, You're a wonderful mother and a strong woman. I hope that I can come out on the other side of this with a measure of your strength.
Teshi,
quote:However, I do not believe that "damaged" grown-ups cannot learn to be good parents, or should not at least give it a try.
The problem is that they can't just give it a try and then say, "Oops, sorry. I really am lousy at this. Can I get a refund?"
Tom,
quote:
quote:Why do people assume that we don’t have a responsibility to defer our need for gratification in order to provide security and stability for our children?
I think there's some vagueness regarding the definition of "gratification" that clouds the issue, perhaps.
I mean satisfaction. If, as a parent, we want more romance, excitement or (you fill in the blank) in our lives, that desire should take a backseat to our responsibility of providing the basics to our children of food, shelter and emotional and physical security.
imogen,
quote:But I think the study only shows one point: children whose parents are divorced are affected by it, and often in a negative way.
I don't think so.
quote:The questionnaire was given to 1500 "randomly selected young men and women from around the country between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five years old." In order to keep within the bounds of "good" divorces, the participants from divorced families were limited to those who "continued to see both parents in the years after the divorce" (p. 2).
posted
LadyDove, I resented my father's new wife and family for a very long time. I felt he left us for this woman. She was who he was unfaithful with and I felt when his new children came along we were second class citizens so to speak. I came to accept the situation a little better when I got older but I still harbor a few bitter moments. They do have a great marriage though. It's obvious they love each other in a way I never saw between my parents. Now my Mother's new husband I have always been very happy about. He is my Pa not my stepdad. I have always felt that he chose us as well as my mother because we got him when I was 16 and my sister was 13. That's alot to take on in my opinion. And I was no prize. I was a rebellious little wench. And when my bio dad said I couldn't come live with him because I'd be a bad influence on his new kids, my Pa told me I'd always have a place in his home and I always have. I didn't want to move to VA when my Pa got transfered, it was my senior year. Dad wouldn't let me stay with him. I didn't speak to him for almost 2 years after that. My Dad is a part of my life now but almost as a friend more then a parent. My Pa walked me down the aisle and if I have a son he'll have his last name for a middle name. He's been there for me from the day we gave my Mom away at the justice of the peace's office 19 years ago. So to answer your question more directly, yes I do think I got a better model for a healthy relationship from my parents new marriages even though I resented the hell out of one of them!
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posted
But LadyDove, it doesn't (and, really, no study could) show what those children whose parents have divorced would be like if their parents had stayed together.
quote:But imogen, don't you think it's possible that one or both parents in cases like that aren't putting in effort because they believe that, in the long run, divorce isn't such a bad thing?
Perhaps. I guess we can never really tell.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
The problems I have with the essay are exactly the same as the ones Teshi has: it isn't an unbiased report of the effects of divorce on children. Both sides can spout anecdotal evidence for as long as they like, but it doesn't prove in one direction or another how divorce affects the average child. We can't use anecdotal evidence to decide on a societal policy for divorce.
All the study shows is that there is correlation between being an "emotionally-troubled" adult and being the child of divorced parents. There's no reason to assume that one causes the other. There could very easily be an underlying problem causing both of them, such as having immature or otherwise unfit parents.
Until there is proof one way or another on the actual effects of divorce (and divorce alone) on a child, I'm going to suggest that we follow the same policy as before: consider each case individually, and do what will be best in the long run for all concerned.
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posted
I don't think it's possible to show the effects of what if in a study. You know, "Sure it shows that children of divorce are unhappy. But what if their parents had stayed together, would they have been as equally unhappy?"
I think it's kind of expecting a lot for the study to provide alternative reality proof considering our current level of technology.
posted
The movie the Squid and the Whale comes to mind.
Reading it now and he does have some interesting points. It is frustrating for people not to work out their marriages, to instead run to the arms of another person instead of dealing with their problems directly and working them out, especially for the sake of the children. However, is the disapproval of society really necessary? These decisions, these personal choices from divorce and even abortion are hard enough on a person as it is without societal disapproval. It doesn't help. It doesn't offer real solutions and it just makes things more painful, especially when sometimes it's more than just boredom or our marriage doesn't have spark anymore. There just has to be a broader way of looking at things. I do believe in personal responsibility, in thinking things out, in thinking out every step before marriage and having kids and making all of those major sort of decisions. I just think that when it comes to people's personal issues it's not pure black and white in any case.
Plus, here's another issue to consider. Is it really right for a person to blame all of their problems and failings with dealing with relationships and other people on their parent's and their divorce? I know I have had my share of problems in terms of social phobia and the like, my parents separated due to a whole host of complicated issues when I was just a child and was going through cancer surgery and all of that, but is it really right for me to blame my failings on them? How much is their responsibility for leaving me to be raised by my grandmother and how much of it is up to me to get over this and move on and grow up and accept responsibility for myself?
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So, I guess the best we can say is "We don't know."
**
Don't get me wrong - personally, I think divorce is tragic. My parents separated when I was 21 and divorced last year. I am still upset about it.
But would I be less upset if they stayed together? If they stayed together without changing, no I don't think so. If they stayed together and changed what was going wrong, yes definately. But for a number of reasons personal to my parents, the latter would not have happened.
So divorce wasn't the *best* solution, but it really was the only one.
I think the world would be much better if people did work at their marriages. But some people won't, or can't. And that is an unfortunate reality.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
It's actually quite possible, if you put together the right sets of data, control for all the variables, and then run the regression properly.
You can't, of course, show a "what if" on the individual level, but you can show the average what if.
... I'm not sure exactly how you would put together a study for this particular example (yet - I'm thinking about it now), but economists do it all the time for similar issues.
Edit: Actually, I already have a few ideas... Take a set of five thousand or so broken families (the kids and the parents). After getting all the basic data from them (gender, race, income both before and after the divorce, length of marriage, children's age at time of divorce, cause of divorce, etc), run a decent set of psychological tests on the parents. This set of tests would, preferably, have already been found to show how fit or unfit the subject is as a parent. If not, then it would at least test the type of things that we think shows correlation with being a fit or unfit parent (i.e. emotional stability, warmth towards others, etc.). There should also, of course, be some sort of psychological testing of the children, to see if they’re more emotionally troubled than average.
You’d take all this data, organize it nicely (or get your graduate students to do it), and then run the regression. If you’ve controlled for all of the variables, then it ought to show whether divorce, and divorce alone, tends to lead to more emotionally troubled children/adults. I’d bet the parent’s psychological profiles would be a better indicator than divorce.
Anyways, it’d be an interesting study to do, if one could get funding to do so. I'm not sure if the sample size I've chosen is large enough for the number of variables there'd be, but that's the basic setup...
Edit Again: Of course, I failed to mention you'd need to compare the broken familes against families in which the parents did not divorce. So, yeah, add that in as well.
quote:And it occurred to her that people who know how to be happy will find happiness in the midst of turmoil; and people who are intent on being miserable can find misery in the midst of peace and plenty.
posted
Scott R, that's the exact problem with this kind of study. Yes, it has findings but if there's no way of disproving what it found it becomes difficult for a definate statement to be made. Combined that with the selection bias that I already mentioned, and the study becomes quite meaningless.
If you're going to make generalizations concerning people, you're going to have have to be able offer a way of creating a counterfactual, which in this case and with this study, is difficult.
I don't think anyone's suggesting that people should get divorced at the drop of the hat, only that this particular study is somewhat meaningless.
It doesn't help that we know that this is not an article written by a reporter, but by someone who has an agenda for writing this particular opinion-article in this particular way. No disrespect, only that in knowing this fact the article is undermined again.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:However, is the disapproval of society really necessary?
I think that society as a whole does render a judgement of what is good and what is not. I would prefer to see at least *some* disapproval for the elective divorce.
Far as I can see, society currently looks at a woman or man who isn't in pursuit of their own happiness as living below their potential. We're all supposed to have perfect figures, a biting sense of humor, money and a rich sexual life. You see these lifestyles celebrated in the media. It gives the impression that if a person is bright and personally empowered, they will not settle for anything less than everything.
Those who are less than fit, nice, middle class and content, are boring. You don't see anyone making a TV series celebrating the every day hero who makes a decision that good enough is good enough.
I believe the elective divorces are, in some cases, symptoms of this drive to live up to one's potential.
I'd prefer to see society push living up to one's commitments and responsibilities.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
One of the things that bothers me about how our society (even here on Hatrack) seems to view divorces is that we don't recognize or at least aren't supposed to say that getting a divorce (at the very least when you have children) almost always represents a failing by both people in one of the most important and serious areas of life.
There's this air when many people talk about their divorces about how it was their spouse's fault that they got divorced. Even if we grant that one person is largely blameless for the breakup of the marriage, they still married this apparently extremely irresponsible person. I am tempted to ask, as people are giving me a litanty of complaints about their ex-spouse, what the heck they thought they were doing marrying someone like that.
Getting into a marriage is, to me, a much more important area of concern than getting out a marriage. To me, entering a marriage poorly is more a mark of disrepect to marriage than getting a divorce.
posted
Can't we have both though? Mostly TV series celebrate the mondane, the boring, they take family life and turn it into something mondane, without passion, without much love for the most parts except in a few instances. But is it possible to have people who don't regard happiness as the most possessions, but instead seek a sense of contentment doing what is really right for them within reason. People who balance following their dreams with living up to their commitments. I for one do not want a perfect figure or tons of money or to have meaningless sex, I only want to become a writer, maybe by some fluke get married... though the thought frightens me a lot... a whole lot.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I haven't had the time to read the whole thread and article, just snips. But I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
My parents are seperated and didn't divorce. I'm still glad they aren't divorced. My mom has divorced parents and she has trama stories that I don't. I'm much more emotionally healthy than she is and even she admits that too.
I just don't think having fighting parents comes anywhere near the torture of being abandoned, and my parents sure knew how to fight.
Just my experience and 2 cents.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I am tempted to ask, as people are giving me a litanty of complaints about their ex-spouse, what the heck they thought they were doing marrying someone like that.
I remember feeling this way, when my mother's friends were trash talking their exes when I was growing up. But I learned that you have to be careful not to judge.
I was married for 18 years to a man who was to all outside appearances, the perfect spouse. He was thoughtful, a good provider, handsome.. I could go on. Then, out of the blue, he came home and told me he wasn't happy, had decided to make himself happy and to h*ll with me and the children. I *thought* when I got married (and for all but the last few months of my married life) that I was with a man who shared my ideals and goals, and while our life wasn't perfect, I realized that no lifeis perfect, and as long as we were both willing to try, we could make it work.
So yeah, I have a lot of 'issues' with my ex, but only for the cr*p he's pulled since he walked out on me. Not with the mostly good 18 years we spent together.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Strangely enough my husband has qualities of both my fathers. Luckily it's mostly the good ones! I am lucky in the fact that I think we got all of our relationship issues done early on. I've known him since my senior year. We've broken up & gotten back together a couple of times. We've dated other people. But we make sense together. We finish each others sentences. I decided to live with him before we got married as a test run if you will. My Pa was not happy with it. Thought it wasn't proper. He asked if my intentions were marriage and I said yes even if he doesn't realize it yet! We lived together 4 years before we got married and then waited 4 years to have a baby. And I was brutally honest before we decided to have children. I jokingly told him I'd rather take the kids to the cemetary to visit then send them for weekend visitation. No, I wouldn't really kill him but I wanted to illustrate for him how serious I felt about divorce. I asked him to really examine how he felt about us and our future before we brought anyone else into this. I was a little nervous because his Dad was like mine and he was from the NEW Family. Iwanted him to truly understand how I felt coming from the other side of that equation. I am glad I did. I had no true concept of how much a child changes your relationship! We were actually talking about it the other day. Anout how childbirth has COMPLETELY changed me. On almost every level. Enough for a seperate thread! But what it came down to is my husband said that maybe that's why so many people divorce after the children. They change. They aren't the same people that got married and maybe you don't always like the new people. When I had my daughter my mother took me aside and told me I had to remember I was also a wife and a woman, not just a mommy and I had to work at keeping the balance. I think that's where she feels she failed. She says she focused just on us and let her relationship flounder. I can see how that can happen. I am so tired by the time my hubby comes home that I just want to hand the baby to him and run screaming into the other room. But we both feel it's important for the muffin to see us together as a couple. So we play together. We hug and kiss together. Not just one on one but as a family unit. Then I run! I am not saying I don't let them play alone while I make dinner etc. or that we don't play alone. No we play alone all day! But we decided early one to show her a parental unit. We come as one being. So far so good. We've had bumps in the beginning adjusting to the new lifestyle but I think we're doing well by her. I think I chose a good Daddy for her. I think coming from what I did made me give it more thought then most people before I had kids because I dont want her to feel like I felt. I am lucky to have essentially grown up with my husband and we've influenced each other for the past 18 years. I think I exposed him enough to Pa that alot rubbed off!
Posts: 601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I liked the essay, and agreed with a lot of his points, and am planning on reading the book.
My divorce was definitely a personal choice... by my former spouse. After 16 years of marraige and 2 kids, he suddenly met another woman and... that was that. OUr divorce was final just over a year later.
It's been hard on my kids, make no mistake. My son, aged 13 at the time, remembers clearly when the fighting started, and it was after he met this woman. Our marriage had been good... not perfect, but good. But after he met this woman, the "not perfect" was magnified to a huge extent.
In other words, the divorce was his choice. I did all I could to prevent it. To quote my ex's beloved uncle, it was a totally selfish thing to do.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are sometimes divorces like that, no real underlying issues, no abuse, just a selfish decision by someone who decides that there's something better out there.
ALso, to be honest, since we live in a small town, there has been a fair amount of societal disapproval of my ex. It upset him terribly (he blamed me for telling people, when actually it was a friend of his who told, oh, everyone!) but it didn't make him change his mind. I don't know if it would have made a difference if he had known that would happen before-hand. And regarding OSC's recomendation that anyone contemplating divorce read that book, I think it's a great idea, but I'm sure that my ex wouldn't have done so... he was only interested in things that would tell him what he was doing was okay.
Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
I think that's where this book is important.
We have had a plethora of things telling us that divorce is "okay."
It's time for the other side of the coin to get a little attention.
Particularly for those of us who grew up with families that were torn apart by divorce - or, in my case, my parent's multiple marriages and divorces.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: In fact, our lives were basically happy even in the midst of grieving. I did not know of anyone I would have traded lives with. Do you? Would you give up everything in your own life in order to take on everything in someone else's? I doubt it. The burdens you already know you can bear are usually preferable to losing the parts of your life you value most.
Bravo had an Inside the Actor's Studio interview of Michael J. Fox over the weekend. The show is dated 2005, though I don't know if this is the first time it ran. But Fox said exactly the same thing. Parkinson's is a burden but if he could trade it for a different one he wouldn't.
posted
I'm conflicted about this. My mother and father were terrible together, just terrible. Neither of them were ready for marriage, and only now -- in their late '50s -- are either of them capable of having stable relationships with their peers. They were completely ill-suited for each other, and ill-suited for permanence with ANYONE.
And yet, had they not gotten together, I would not have been born. And on the balance, I'm rather glad to be alive -- and to have BEEN alive, even with them taking credit for the "rearing."
So I don't know whether "choose your marriage partner more carefully" is really the best advice in MY particular situation, since I've got to think that even a moment's serious thought would have completely prevented my existence.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
As others admitted about themselves, I too married hastily and with a person that, almost immediately, I recognized I was incompatible with. She, of course, felt the same. It was stupidity on both our parts.
But as the years went by, I began to learn what it meant to be married and what love was. Love was not simply this romantic feeling of euphoria and ecstasy. It was work. It was partnership. It was a feeling of you and this person being a team, committment, and security in that committment.
And it began to feel good. Yeah, we had problems. I wasn't the husband she needed me to be. And she wasn't the loving wife I needed. But there were things that we enjoyed doing together. And as our shared history began to grow and grow, my feeling of comfort with her grew. Yeah, she could be verbally cruel and moody. I personally think she suffers from at least a mild case of manic-depression. But I know that I failed her in many ways too. So the blame is on both sides.
About a year after we were married our son was born. He was the best thing we did. She's a good mother and I am a good father. He is a major reason we worked at making this work (aside from our religious beliefs.)
We were coming up on our 7th anniversary. As I said, I had learned to be content in our marriage. I had put too much blood, sweat and tears for it not to be precious to me. And it was precious to me. It was valuable. And I had learned a lot from her and I did (and still do) love her. I had joy. Yeah, there were times I wished I had waited for this our that person or had been patient. But I wouldn't have made a different choice if I had the chance. For one thing, our son would not have been born, and he's worth any pain we suffered.
But as we approached the 7th year, she lost hope. She began spending more time with people from work, one guy in particular. All unknown to me, of course, until I got a letter from her expressing her hopelessness at our situation and her desire to be loved by someone she loved. And it went downhill from there. 6 months later we were divorced and she moved 5 hours away.
I did everything within my power to win her back. I wanted her back. I loved her. And Connor needed his parents together. The hurt and pain she caused me was great, the vicous words, the mocking, the humiliation. But that was me and I'm over it, so it doesn't bother me now. But I saw (and still see) the way our son was hurt by this. A hurt that she feels very guilty about, now. She is a good mother. But she got sidetracked. I think of her feeling like an animal trapped and gnawing off its leg. It hurt her deeply and she feels it. She's remarried now, and I hope she does well. But our son has issues that, while maybe not all of them were caused by the divorce, were certainly made much, much worse. And while our divorce was the most amicable I know of, and we communicate daily peacefully on shared issues, the fact is, our shared custody is incredibly painful to him, the shuffling back and forth, the fact that he is not with us both at the same time. It's mommy now OR daddy now, not mommy AND daddy together. He wants us back together. And that is not going to happen.
It's that selfishness that hurts me the most. I was willing to stick with our marriage (and fight for it) because that is what a grownup does. Just because it turns out you are not completely happy with the person you are with, or because someone better comes along, doesn't mean you have the right to be selfish and hurt your children. Your children's happiness is more important that yours, contrary to popular wisdom.
Yeah, it was both our fault we got married. And it was both our fault that we failed. In most cases (And I am not talking about abuse, alcoholism, abandoment or serial infidelity), I believe that both parties are at fault, even when only one ends up cheating and leaving. But the pain caused to our son and the messiness of his life, the insecurity that COMES UP no matter the reassurance we give him, is the price that he has to pay. Forget about the price I was forced to pay. That's fine. I went into this with my eyes open and it's partly my fault anyway. But he, the completely innocent one, has had to pay for her freedom.
That's the selfishness that angers me. And why societies casualness about 'no-fault' divorce and the utter selfishness portrayed in the media (as in movies like The English Patient) irritate me.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
My parents divorced when I was eight or so.
But from what I've seen of my friends, my situation is much different than theirs. My ex-girlfriend's parents were divorced and she rarely ever saw her dad, as he spent most of his time with his other wife. Another friend of mine's parents are divorced and she rarely sees her dad as her parents are now mortal enemies, though they have three children together. Her dad also spends large amounts of time trying to brainwash her brother into thinking their mother is evil and that he should come live with their father.
My parents get along extremely well. My friends didn't realize they were divorced for a long time because they get along so well, and because my dad is over quite often. We're still a tight knit family, despite some rocky roads along the way. If getting divorced was the best thing for them, I'm glad they did it. I haven't felt any negative effects from it, nor has my brother.
I think what matters is for divorced parents to continue to be active in their children's lives. Distance and lack of attendence is what can lead to a lapse in parental influence. Be there, be involved. That, and the benefit of not constantly being in the same space fighting I think could even do better things for your child than staying together for the wrong reasons.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: the fact is, our shared custody is incredibly painful to him, the shuffling back and forth, the fact that he is not with us both at the same time. It's mommy now OR daddy now, not mommy AND daddy together.
This is what I'm finding with my kids, who are 14 and 12. Even though our lives are going well, even though we have found happiness in our new situation, they find the back-and-forth very difficult. During the transitions my daughter's sadness is palpable, and it breaks my heart. My son just hates it the shuffling, it's very stressful for him.
Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2004
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quote: ... and I felt when his new children came along we were second class citizens so to speak.
My Step-Mom said not long ago that she and my Dad chose not to have children together because they didn't want this to happen. I have to respect them for that.
Both of my parents have been remarried for over 25 years each (they divorced when I was about 3 1/2).
My bio parents had a very bitter relationship after the divorce. My Dad never said anything bad about my Mom in front of me. I wish I could say the same for my Mom.
It is really interesting for me with my family. My Mom's parents have been happily married for over 50 years. All four of their children have gotten divorced. Posts: 399 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote: Even if we grant that one person is largely blameless for the breakup of the marriage, they still married this apparently extremely irresponsible person. I am tempted to ask, as people are giving me a litanty of complaints about their ex-spouse, what the heck they thought they were doing marrying someone like that.
Ya know what, my first reaction to this was "screw you."
Y know what, until 3 weeks ago I REALLY TRULY thought that he was going to be OK. I thought that we would be able to work out whatever came up.
I never in a million years thought he would come to me and say "I think I'll be happier without you. I want to split up." and that he would, regardless of what my son or I wanted, regardless of how selfish it was.
YES I knew he was not perfect when we were dating. Neither am I. Neither is anyone. He didn't beat me (never has), he didn't cheat on me(never has), he's not an alcoholic. He was too serious, but everyone noticed that he lightened up and became happier and more fun after we'd been together for awhile.
To be able to tell what someone is going to do 6-7 yrs down the road IS NOT easy, or even possibl;e. I did not think he would do this, did not know that he was capable of being SO selfish.
Yeah if he was an abuser there would probably have been warning signs. But to blame ME because he just refuses to be and stay happy with what he has is ridiculous. Sure, 3 years into the marriage, I was starting to realize this. But I had no idea when we got married. To me he seemed like the most wonderful man I'd ever met.
It is EASY to judge other people who'se situation you are not in. But usually you are wrong when you do that. You don't know what was said and how it was said the night we decided to get married. You don't know what our relationship was like before that.
So lay off, because you don't know.
Posts: 772 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
But seriously I like this article, although I am disturbed that it left me feeling really self righteous...
Posts: 772 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
dawnmaria, I’m so happy that you came away with such a positive education and were healthy enough to map out a plan to avoid the pitfalls you witnessed as a child. Your child is very lucky.
ctm,
quote:And regarding OSC's recomendation that anyone contemplating divorce read that book, I think it's a great idea, but I'm sure that my ex wouldn't have done so... he was only interested in things that would tell him what he was doing was okay.
This self-centered, deaf to anything not self-affirming, attitude is almost impossible to overcome. I certainly never found a way to overcome it with my spouse.
Shan,
quote:We have had a plethora of things telling us that divorce is "okay."
It's time for the other side of the coin to get a little attention.
Exactly.
BannaOj,
quote:The burdens you already know you can bear are usually preferable to losing the parts of your life you value most.
I’ve heard that before and agree. I think that no matter how bad our lives get, we know how to “do” our own burdens. That’s one of the reasons I think that in times like these, friends are so precious. They can’t take our burdens, but they can help carry us while we carry them.
Tom,
quote:And yet, had they not gotten together, I would not have been born. And on the balance, I'm rather glad to be alive -- and to have BEEN alive, even with them taking credit for the "rearing."
So I don't know whether "choose your marriage partner more carefully" is really the best advice in MY particular situation, since I've got to think that even a moment's serious thought would have completely prevented my existence.
I have a real problem wrapping my head around this line of thought. See, I shouldn’t exist at all. My bio-father was married and had children with a woman in Indiana when he impregnated my mother in Los Angeles. Obviously, marrying the wrong person wasn’t the only problem in this scenario.
When I talk about being careful to not marry the wrong person and making divorce socially less acceptable, it’s part of the future I hope for my sons. There will be exceptions, but I’d like to see stable/healthy families be the rule.
IanO,
I’m so sorry. I know it’s completely sexist, but I find it so much *less* acceptable for a mother to be selfish. It’s something that I can’t imagine doing, so it feels completely wrong and unnatural to me. No one could pay me enough to live outside of shouting distance of my boys.
Take heart from dawnmaria’s post. I know that I do.
Lyrhawn, Good for your parents. I am not friendly with my spouse at present and I know that I *must* become more friendly to make my kids life as normal as possible. How much time was there between the time they split and the time they became friendly?
mimsies, ::hugs:: All you can do is the best you can do.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I don't really remember all that well, it was more than a decade ago. But the furthest memory I have back is of them on friendly terms. There was a brief time when my dad was seeing someone else that there was a bit of a rift, but in the end, though I don't know all the details, I think my dad decided to spend more time with us and stopped seeing the other woman and stopped having anything to do with her family.
They were always at least on speaking terms, and he was always around, so at the very least there was contact.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
When I pray, I thank God from the deepest part of my being that my mother finally gave up on my father and got a divorce, ending the hell (broken by brief periods of counselling or whatever). It was the best thing for all of us, including my father.
My mother's re-marriage to a decent man is the only way I ever had an example of what a healthy relationship would be like. I also thank God for my stepfather, btw. I would have spent my adult life trying to replicate the chaos I was accustomed to without that man.
I praise my mother's courage in doing what had to be done to make my happiness possible.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Geez, I don't know if this thread is therapeutic or if it is pushing me over the edge... I can't stop crying
Posts: 772 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Pardon the bitter tone of the next paragraphs. I had not realized how much all of this still haunts me. And I am a successful adult in today's world . . . but obviously, being successful does not put all these ghosts to rest.
**********************************************
My mother married my biological father in the late 60's - because that's what you did when you oopsied and got preggo. He was a 'Nam vet - and she decided that there were too many problems with his ability or lack thereof in coping with the trauma.
She divorced him before I was a year old, and married the man that adopted me. They had two more children. When I was 10, they divorced. For whatever reason, I lived with him and they lived with her. When I was in my mid-20's, I told them both EMPHATICALLY to NEVER put me in the middle of their pathetic battles over "child support, who done what to the other, who was worst" BS again.
My mother re-married when I was 11. To a man entering his seventh marriage. She married an alcoholic, abusive nightmare of a man that hurt all of us in every way imaginable. I thank God that I was only available for his abuse 8 weeks out of the year. Four f***ing years ago, he was trying to get at my mother again.
She embarked on her 4th marriage when I was 14. A decent, down-to-earth, hard-working man. Also divorced with two children. The mixing of the family was just something - and with the youngest two, probably what tore them apart. They divorced when I was 23. I also told both of them to NEVER put me in the middle - they only tried once. He and I exchange Christmas and birthday greetings. Otherwise, he is no longer a part of my life. A loss for me and my son.
My biological father never remarried. I met him when I was 10. He was like a fairy tale in so many ways. He was honest. He whole-heartedly supported me and who I was - and loved his grandson with such intensity. He died five years ago. Another loss for my son and me.
My adoptive father remarried when I was 15. My step-mother inherited an angsty teen (me) when she was not more than 12 years my senior and had never been a mom before. We communicate. Civilly. Quarterly. Mostly for holidays.
My adoptive father was married and divorced prior to my mother. A child was also involved in this scenario. I met him when he stayed with us for a visit when I was a little girl.
Lest you think my mother was rotten, please note that she was subjected to a nasty divorce between her parents. (Among other traumas, such as child sexual abuse, and a critically ill, therefore absent for quite some time mother.) Her mother still holds very angry feelings.
My biological father's parents were divorced when he was a young lad. Granny later remarried when her boys were teens.
My adoptive father comes from a "stable LDS family" - but he and at least one sib have both experienced divorce.
posted
Shan, You're putting the blame in the wrong place. You're blaming no fault divorce for your Mom being a big screw-up. The problem was with your Mom and her bad choices, not with no-fault divorce.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I don't think the blame goes on Shan's mom for the multiple divorces of the men she married, or for her parents' divorce.
I think that Shan's point, and Shan let me know if I'm missing the mark, is that there are just so freaking many divorces that the ease of divorce *must be* one of the causes of divorce.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Wow! In 7 minutes, you carefully read the post, think about your response, and then with great thoughtfulness, add your .02.
Pretty impressive, MrSquicky.
I'm also quite fascinated by how you labeled my mom as a screw-up, completely ignoring the other 50% of the equation.
You might note that I went to considerable trouble to show how multi-generational divorce has been, on all sides of the "family tree."
And yes, I am entitled to my opinion based on the life I have experienced. Whether you agree or not. And my opinion is that due to lack of boundaries, American families are scattered, leaderless, divided . . . oh! where have I heard that before? (Just a little tension breaker - sorry)
Oddly enough, ALL my siblings (half and step - all successful adults, too) still hold a great deal of hurt from their parents' divorces - and with the exception of the third husband of my mother, uniformly agree that mostly selfishness and a lack of willingness to work at the marriage ("it was just too much trouble") were the deciding factors in the divorces. And that the damage to the children was unfair, uncalled for, and that they will not ever do the same to their children.
So hey - maybe out of the ashes, the phoenix will arise . . .
EDITED TO ADD: Yes! That's it, LadyDove. And thank you for saying it in a so much more hearable manner than I did.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I don't think making divorce harder and forcing people to stay together is the answer though. The negativity in a bad marriage will find a way to manifest itself, and I have to believe that will negatively impact on a child in that family.
You can't always know when you get married that a relationship will or won't work out. Getting married just for the sake of a child works sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't. Forcing something that is never going to work doesn't help the child at all, in fact I think it would present an unhealthy view of marriage to a kid.
What do you want a child to grow up with, the belief that divorce is okay, or the belief that it's best to stay in a bad marriage? I think the latter is more unhealthy than the former.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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mimsie, I think that each trauma is alotted only so many tears. Silly as this sounds, make sure to rehydrate yourself. ::pours mimsie some hot apple cider::
Shan, You have not continued the pattern. You are thinking about your son first and foremost. Good job, mom.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Saying that one person did something wrong in no way ignores that other people may have also done things wrong in that situation. Were your mother a mature person who acted responsibily in her relationships, the ability to get no-fault divorces wouldn't have affected her relationships. Conversely, even if she were unable to get an easy divorce, her poor relationship choices would have very likely had some pretty bad effects on you. You'd get to be in the middle of the fighting all the time.
I didn't say it was your mother's fault that she was a screw-up. I don't see how saying "But her parents divorced too." makes her mistakes any less mistakes.
---
It's selfishness and immaturity that are our problems. With them, having easy divorce isn't a problem because it's rarely used. Without them, making it really hard for people to leave marriages just means we're going to have a lot of messed up marriages, just like we did in the non-idealized history when divorce was much more difficult.
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edit: As an aside, is taking 7 minutes for something like that really so uncommon? I was hardly racing through there. I read it and the posts that preceded it that I hadn't read before and posted a response. I don't see how that should take much more than 7 minutes.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:I don't think the blame goes on Shan's mom for the multiple divorces of the men she married, or for her parents' divorce.
I don't see how it can't. Who else's responsibility is it? It's exactly this idea that people not needing to be responsible that I'm saying is the biggest problem. At some point, you have to stop letting people act like children and expect them to act like adults.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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