posted
Well, considering the press was calling a rifle a shotgun, I wouldn't trust them. They don't tend to be gun people. Considering I buy buckshot and birdshot, I'm not quite an expert, but close Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I know how much Republicans love it when bad news was coming out of the White House and Clinton used distraction to diffuse the bad press (bombing a country to cover up an affair and whatnot.)
So, is it at all coincidental that shortly after being accused of authorizing the Plame leak, Cheney shot someone?
You'll notice we aren't talking about the leak today.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Why on Earth is this a big deal? People get stray shots from hunting accidents all the time. Just because a Republican VP is involved, it's suddenly a nation-wide conspiracy? Isn't there anything else liberals can whine about? Not that I don't enjoy all comments made in jest here...I just don't get why anybody could seriously care about this...
Posts: 193 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Um, I think most people just think it's funny. Nobody really seems to seriously care. Plus, even though hunting accidents happen all the time, it still makes the people involved look pretty stupid, and when one of those people is the VP of the USA, people are going to point and laugh even more than normal.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I heard some NBC correspondent whining to the White House press secretary about how long it took the White House to make a statement about it.
It's not like they kept it secret - it was put on a local newspaper's web site on Sunday morning.
quote:I assume not, since his unfortunate target will likely not press charges, but I wonder if the state is "forced" to file charges anyway?
I can attest firsthand to the difficulty of prosecuting wounding charges without cooperation of the victim.
Funny how a nail sticking out of a railing can leave an absolutely clean 6-inch slice down someone's back. Even funnier when there happens to be a chef's knife with blood on the tip lying on the living room floor when the police arrive.
Sorry, I'm a little annoyed with domestic violence victims recanting on the stand today.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I heard some NBC correspondent whining to the White House press secretary about how long it took the White House to make a statement about it.
It's not like they kept it secret - it was put on a local newspaper's web site on Sunday morning.
I was listening to the White House Press Conference today and it was all the Press Corp was asking about.
Personally I'm a little confused about why it was absolutely vital that the American people know about it within 10 minutes of the incident. I mean, it's a funny story, but not exactly time sensitive.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Why on Earth is this a big deal? People get stray shots from hunting accidents all the time. Just because a Republican VP is involved, it's suddenly a nation-wide conspiracy? Isn't there anything else liberals can whine about? Not that I don't enjoy all comments made in jest here...I just don't get why anybody could seriously care about this...
This is exactly what the Liberals said about Clinton, except I'm willing to bet that the incidence of husbands cheating on their wives is much, much higher than that of shotgun accidents.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I think people are missing the important part of the story. It's not that the guy who got shot is a lawyer. It's that he's 78. The vice-president was trying out a new solution to the Social Security problem. If it had worked, all across the country, AARP members would be getting invitations to go hunting with high ranking Republicans.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Apparently Harry Whittington was in intensive care when admitted, which of course makes it less funny.
But he's much better now.
Cheney had a hunting license, but didn't have the 'bird stamp' to authorize quail hunting.
quote:Whittington, a prominent Republican attorney in the Texas capital of Austin, was in stable condition at Christus Spohn Hospital Corpus Christi-Memorial and was moved from intensive care to a "step-down unit" Monday. Doctors decided to leave several birdshot pellets lodged in his skin rather than try to remove them. Armstrong said the accident occurred toward the end of the hunt, as darkness was encroaching and they were preparing to go inside. Whittington was retrieving from tall grass a bird he had shot. - - - She said Cheney stayed "close but cool" while the agents and medical personnel treated Whittington, then took him away via ambulance to the hospital. Later, the hunting group sat down for dinner while Whittington was being treated, receiving updates from a family member at the hospital. Armstrong described Cheney's demeanor during dinner as "very worried" about Whittington.
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Actually there will be charges pressed. According to http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/bush_administration Cheney didn't get a hunting stamp. He was hunting without a liscence.
Actually, I heard on the news that this hunting stamp thing is a very new regulation and the usual punishment is a fine and a warning. I wouldn't call that pressing charges.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Smoking gun says they issue a citation that doesn't carry a fine or a penalty of any sort. So, yeah, not a big deal.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
OK, he didn't have a bird stamp for quail. Note I didn't say QUALE (big difference, get off the guy's back already, it's old news). Big nono for Cheney. You have to have the proper license. The biggest reason this is all a big portion of the news is that Cheney is PUBLIC. Yes, a very public view, as he is the VP. Nothing else. As an avid hunter I can say he wasn't using a rifle, no one does when bird hunting. He was also using birdshot, not buckshot. I use buckshot when I hunt (I hunt deer). There would be nothing left of that lawyer if Cheney had used buckshot.
Yes, this does give ammo (pun?) to the anti-hunting activists who I would like nothing more than to see die a slow death. When they get off MY land I won't mind.
Another thing, these birds are stocked. It's not as if they were some random birds caught out in the field. They do the same with pheasant, which is good eating by the way. Game hunting is (in a controled manner only) totally different than it used to be. We ensure that the game will last by stocking/breeding these animals so that it will have no detrimental impact on the population of them. Note that I am not going to say the same for sport fishing (I hate this).
If I missed anything, please let me know.
[ February 14, 2006, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Well, I suppose we could argue whether or not it HAD to be done, but the far more important point here is how little willpower I have when it comes to mocking Republicans.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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``Good news, ladies and gentlemen, we have finally located weapons of mass destruction: It's Dick Cheney.''
``But here is the sad part - before the trip Donald Rumsfeld had denied the guy's request for body armor.''
``We can't get Bin Laden, but we nailed a 78-year-old attorney.''
``The guy who got gunned down, he is a Republican lawyer and a big Republican donor and fortunately the buck shot was deflected by wads of laundered cash. So he's fine. He took a little in the wallet.''
``The Tonight Show with Jay Leno,'' NBC:
``Although it is beautiful here in California, the weather back East has been atrocious. There was so much snow in Washington, D.C., Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fat guy thinking it was a polar bear.
``That's the big story over the weekend. ... Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fellow hunter, a 78-year-old lawyer. In fact, when people found out he shot a lawyer, his popularity is now at 92 percent.''
``I think Cheney is starting to lose it. After he shot the guy he screamed, 'Anyone else want to call domestic wire tapping illegal?'''
``Dick Cheney is capitalizing on this for Valentine's Day. It's the new Dick Cheney cologne. It's called Duck!''
``The Daily Show with Jon Stewart,'' Comedy Central:
``Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot a man during a quail hunt ... making 78-year-old Harry Whittington the first person shot by a sitting veep since Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton, of course, (was) shot in a duel with Aaron Burr over issues of honor, integrity and political maneuvering. Whittington? Mistaken for a bird.''
``Now, this story certainly has its humorous aspects. ... But it also raises a serious issue, one which I feel very strongly about. ... moms, dads, if you're watching right now, I can't emphasize this enough: Do not let your kids go on hunting trips with the vice president. I don't care what kind of lucrative contracts they're trying to land, or energy regulations they're trying to get lifted - it's just not worth it.''
``Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson,'' CBS:
``He is a lawyer and he got shot in the face. But he's a lawyer, he can use his other face. He'll be all right.''
``You can understand why this lawyer fellow let his guard down, because if you're out hunting with a politician, you think, 'If I'm going to get it, it's going to be in the back.
' ``
``The big scandal apparently is that they didn't release the news for 18 hours. I don't think that's a scandal at all. I'm quite pleased about that. Finally there's a secret the vice president's office can keep.''
``Apparently the reason they didn't release the information right away is they said we had to get the facts right. That's never stopped them in the past.''
posted
See, and that's why the Daily Show is funny and the rest of them aren't. The Daily Show tries to not go for the cheap jokes.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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If he were to die as a result of this shooting, how would it be handled, legally? I assume that it would be handled however fatal hunting accidents usually are, but I don't really know what that is. Would it be considered involuntary manslaughter, or does the a person automatically assume risk when they go hunting, legally speaking? Dag? UofUlawguy?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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The only one that might fit is criminally negligent homicide. Criminal negligence is defined as follows:
quote:A person acts with criminal negligence, or is criminally negligent, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint.
So the standards of care involved in hunting would be highly relevant. Was the victim really supposed to announce his arrival? Was Cheney allowed to rely on the absence of such announcement?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I had heard he was out of intensive care. Crud...so is he back in ICU?
The poor man.
I hope he recovers quickly.
I'm also amazed at how fast these companies capitalize on tragedy like this. Some toy company has already released a Young Dick Cheney Action FigurePosts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:I'm willing to bet that the incidence of husbands cheating on their wives is much, much higher than that of shotgun accidents.
Yes. Which makes it so much less a big deal when the man who runs the country willingly breaks what most people consider the most sacred promise a man can make, than when the number two man has a serious accident while invovled in an aknowledgedly dangerous sport.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I don't know. It just seems like quite a coincidence that this happened so soon after it became generally known that Scooter Libby has claimed that his superiors, which would be...let me see...oh, Dick Cheney, mostly...approved his leak of Valerie Plame's name to the press.
Not sayin' anything, just that it's intereting timing.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Which makes it so much less a big deal when the man who runs the country willingly breaks what most people consider the most sacred promise a man can make, than when the number two man has a serious accident while invovled in an aknowledgedly dangerous sport.
Neither of which has anything important to do with my life, which is the point erosomniac was making. They're both funny, in a sad, ironic kind of way. You wouldn't like it if people poked around in your love life, however faithful you were, just like I wouldn't like similar treatment regarding a sporting accident.
These are both public figures, and it comes with the territory. But what it comes down to, as far as I'm concerned, is that neither event has much at all to do with their governing ability.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
So y'all's saying Cheney shootin' his load into man not his wife is the same as Clinton.....onto a dress not his wife's?
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I'm more interested in why docmagik made the odd juxtaposition. And why you didn't correct him if you think the acts are not comparable.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Re-edited back in since there has been a reference below. I'm more interested in why docmagik thinks the acts are comparable; and why you didn't correct him if you think they're not.
quote:I'm more interested in why docmagik thinks the acts are comparable; and why you didn't correct him if you think they're not.
Actually, I was the one who said they were comparable. I said so because I believe that in both cases, the acts are not indicative in any way of the individual's ability to lead, and in both cases, the opposing political party believes they are.
Edit:
quote:I'm more interested in why docmagik made the odd juxtaposition.
posted
Lessee... Lewinsky would have had to wash the dress if she hadn't desired the keepsake more.
Whittington is hospitalized in intensive care with shotgun pellets having penetrated his pericardium leaving a pathway for infection. At least one pellet has penetrated the heart muscle itself, leaving cardiologists fearful that the pellet(s) may enter the cardiovascular system where it could act as the equivalent of a travelling blood clot, until it gets lodged and possibly cause cardiac arrest or pulmonary embolism or stroke. And surgeons prefer to wait in hope that the pellet(s) will be stopped/encysted by Whittington's immune&repair cuz ripping apart a 78year-old's ribs to gain access to remove the pellet(s) might kill him, either in surgery or during hospital recovery period. Or drasticly shorten his life after he leaves the hospital.
Seems to me that a possible homicide is a FAR more serious matter than a dress stain.
posted
Well, I don't think the dress stain was the issue. And not harping on the whole Lewinsky thing. But I think intentionally doing a bad thing is worse than unintentionally doing a bad thing.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Seems to me that a possible homicide is a FAR more serious matter than a dress stain.
A coverup is a coverup - to the extent that happened, it is somewhat similar. Otherwise it is apples and oranges.
Consensual sex between adults is way different than a hunting accident.
quote: Hospital officials said they were not concerned about the six to 200 other pieces of birdshot that might still be lodged in his body (!!!).
Cheney was using 7 1/2 shot from a 28-gauge shotgun. Shotgun pellets typically are made of steel or lead; the pellets in 7 1/2 shot are just under one-tenth of an inch in diameter.
Cheney watched a news conference Tuesday where doctors described Whittington's complications. Then the vice president called and wished him well and asked if there was anything he needed.
One of the worst things for Cheney's image appears to be is this perceived "coldness" in his response to Whittington's injury.
quote:After Whittington developed an irregular heartbeat, doctors performed a cardiac catheterization, in which a thin, flexible tube is inserted into the heart, to diagnose his condition, said Peter Banko, the hospital's administrator.
The shot was either touching or embedded in the heart muscle near the top chambers, called the atria, officials said. Two things resulted:
It caused inflammation that pushed on the heart in a way to temporarily block blood flow, what the doctors called a ``silent heart attack.'' This is not a traditional heart attack where an artery is blocked. They said Whittington's arteries were healthy.
It irritated the atria, caused an irregular heartbeat known as atrial fibrillation, which is not immediately life-threatening. But it must be treated because it can spur blood clots to form. Most cases can be corrected with medication.
---
Texas officials said the shooting was an accident and no charges have been brought against the vice president.
A Texas Parks and Wildlife Department report issued Monday said Whittington was retrieving a downed bird and stepped out of the hunting line he was sharing with Cheney. ``Another covey was flushed and Cheney swung on a bird and fired, striking Whittington in the face, neck and chest at approximately 30 yards,'' the report said.
Cheney DID violate an unwritten (?) safety rule for shooting game birds: There should be 'sky under the bird' when you shoot. That's meant to help hunters avoid shooting other hunters in the area.
quote:A coverup is a coverup - to the extent that happened, it is somewhat similar.
Since the extent a "coverup" happened in the shooting incident is zero, apparently they aren't similar at all.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
As much as I'd love to see Dick Cheney leave Washington in disgrace, I do not believe for a minute that this was anything but an accident, and I don't think a brief delay in releasing the news is all that critical. The incident had no effect on Cheney's availability for work or his physical condition, and is simply not relevant to anything that's in his job specifications.
I do hope that we hear something like a message on gun safety out of this because, while hunting is inherently dangerous, one of the reasons it is so is because some hunters are inexperienced and either do not know or do not sufficiently heed the advice on safe practices.
It sounds as if Cheney did what some have told me is called a "snap" shot. It's literally "shooting from the hip" without taking careful aim. You see something move and you point the gun from whatever position you are holding it in, and you shoot.
here's a man who is, I'm guessing, about six feet tall, give or take. He is 30 yards from the VP. And the VP hits him. Before judging this too critically, I'd want to know the terrain. Was he on a rise compared to the VP's position, or did Dick Cheney fire his gun basically level with the ground...without KNOWING where the rest of the hunting party was at that moment?
I can see how there might be rules about how one approaches another group of hunters, especially if they don't know about your presence in the field at all. But this man was part of the VP's hunting party.
I'm thinking the person who pulled the trigger has a responsibility for where their bullets (or shot in this case) goes. If that's not a fundamental rule of hunting (or any gun sport), then I was trained incorrectly when I took firearms safety to obtain a permit in Florida.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Yes, this is a cheap shot, no pun intended actually.
Yes, this accident bears little on The Vice President's abilities to do his job, or that of President Bush if needed.
However, it does show his extreme competitive nature, and willingness to take chances, since it appears that in his eagerness to shoot the game, he fired from the hip at the first hint of noise.
I am more interested in finding out which lobbyist paid for this hunting trip, and how many such hunting trips have been bought and paid for.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Why do such silly controversies erupt into such massive media issues while seemingly serious controversies slip by without all that much attention? Yeah, it's bad that Cheney accidently did this, but what's the big deal about waiting a day to give the story to the media?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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This is what the media is harping on. They're not as concerned about what happened to the man as they are about the implication that there was some sort of cover-up.
In reality, at least in this century, it's seldom the act that brings the Man In Power down--it's the cover-up. Once they can show that the truth was being hidden, they get the guy on the perjury charge, or at the very least on the credibility issue.
I agree with Dag that in this case there was no cover-up, but that doesn't change the fact that having the chance at proving a cover-up is the media equivalent of going for the two-point conversion.
And that's irrespective of the political party involved. Ultimately, the media's highest allegiance is to the media, and exposing cover-ups is one of the greatest ways they can manifest their power and reinforce the position of power they see themselves in with respect to the nation. (Time it was, people wanted their kids to grow up to be president. Now they want their kids to grow up to take down the President.)
So why isn't it the scandal that brings the people down? Because people are so willing to twist morality in the way that makes their guy look good.
To a conservative, Clinton was breaking sacred promises and commitments. To a liberal, he was having consensual sex. To a conservative, Cheney was involved in a serious accident. To a liberal, Cheney shot a guy.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
:? I can see the difference with the Clinton example - one group finds it immoral, one group sees it as ok.
But in the Cheney example, you're basically oversimplifying the facts. It's like the difference in saying "Person A slept with Person B" and "Person A slept in the same bed as Person B". Technically, they're both accurate. But one implies wrongdoing.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
The thing that concerns me more than any alleged cover-up, and something that I was not aware of when I posted before, is this. Apparently the local authorities were not allowed access to Cheney until the morning following the incident. A law enforcement official showed up at the ranch that evening, from reports I've heard, asking to speak with the vice-president, but the officer was denied that access by the Secret Service.
Now, I'm not saying that anything was being hidden. I'm inclined to think that it was simply a matter of Cheney's documented penchant for secrecy and his apparent belief that being the vice-president makes him better than everybody else. However, it creates the impression that perhaps something was being hidden or avoided. That, maybe, some drinking had been going on, or that there had been some other sort of negligence at work, leading to the incident. Even if there was nothing sinsiter going on, it creates the opportunity for people to wonder. This is not a positive for the administration.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Even if there was nothing sinsiter going on, it creates the opportunity for people to wonder. This is not a positive for the administration.
I agree.
quote: his apparent belief that being the vice-president makes him better than everybody else.
It should be noted that everyone can assert the right that Cheney did, even without Secret Service. At minimum a person in a private home can require the police to obtain a warrant before seizing them.
The rules are slightly different for visitors, but there's still some protection everyone is entitled to.
That's not to say the police likely weren't a lot more circumspect because of Cheney's position. But the right asserted is one we all have to some degree.
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