"International calls for restraint are growing, with Russia, France and the EU saying Israel's response to the capture of two soldiers was disproportionate. [...] Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel was responding to "an unprovoked act of aggression" by Lebanon. "
why not just attack the actual people who attacked you!? why not attack the missile infrastructure, why not attack the southern border where all the militants are? why attack the airport a second time and kill more innocent people?
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Looks like from the pictures they attacked the middle of an airfield. Doubt there are people there……. Sounds like they did that so their captured troops couldn’t get transferred to Iran.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: Looks like from the pictures they attacked the middle of an airfield.
Actually, they hit the fuel farm, and as anyone who's ever been to an airport or seen one on T.V. knows, no one works there... Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:why not attack the missile infrastructure, why not attack the southern border where all the militants are?
I'm under the impression -- and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong -- that the rockets being used here were smaller, mobile types -- types that are impossible to retaliate against specifically.
posted
True. Most of the time, but I bet one against Israel would be another log on the fire for their enemies to use against them.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Hamas is getting exactly what it wants: a conflict with Isreal in order to deflect attention from the Palestinian Authority's financial ruin in the wake of their taking the reins of power.
And Iran is further exploiting the situation (Hezbollah is an Iranian instrument) because it can point to Isreal's agressive response to further justify its militarization and nuclear program. Plus any agressive response from Isreal helps ignite anger in the Muslim streets, which always makes the Islamofascists happy.
Bottom line: Hamas and Hezbollah are getting exactly what they want and expect.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
good, as long as we can agree that Hez. is not a lebanese state sponsored militia, and that israel should be focusing their retaliation on only hez, and not acuse lebanon of starting a war
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: good, as long as we can agree that Hez. is not a lebanese state sponsored militia, and that israel should be focusing their retaliation on only hez, and not acuse lebanon of starting a war
As with the Taliban and al Queda, if you let terrorists prosper in your midst, prepare yourself for the consequence.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: If by the bible you are speaking of the old testament, then maybe you should know that both the jews and the muslim also consider this text to be sacred (Ishmael anyone?).
That's not actually true. They claim that our Bible is completely corrupt. They claim that Abraham was commanded to sacrifice Ishmael; not Isaac. They have a lot of really garbled stuff. Basically, Muhammed got stories from local Jews and patched them into the Qur'an, but he kind of made a mess of it.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: The situation in Israel is less about religion than it is about land and territory.
Human, I promise you, if you insist on ignoring the religious aspects of this, you'll never understand the situation. Without those, the political aspects would have died out long ago.
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Do you laugh or cry? Wow... It's gotten ugly. No telling what will be next.
Damn. Bad, bad move.
Yeah it is a bad move.
The difference? I will not be surprised to see these kidnappers tried and convicted nor for Israeli police resources to be used to free their hostages.
Anyone want to make a bet about Lebanon or Hamas punishing the people who kidnapped the Israelis?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: It's a viscious cycle, and short of a full-scale war that wipes out one side, it will never accomplish what either side wants.
This is something that has reminded me of something I have thought in the past. When I first understood to some extent the amount of death and destruction that has been in the middle east, I wondered which is worse: An ongoing feud for generations or a final fight where one side wins--if a sustained peace is even possible after a complete victory.
I have no supportable opinion of who should win; I don't understand the situation enough. I do pose the question: If there was an all out war and one side eliminated the other, would there be less death and destruction in the long run?
If we compared casualties where one side truly won vs. 100 years of skirmishes, 200 years, 1000 years (not that Israel as we know it has existed that long), which war would be more traumatic and horrible"?
Diplomacy doesn't seem viable when a stated goal is the destruction of your country. Is there truly another option besides a full-scale war or generations of death, hate and terror?
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Do you laugh or cry? Wow... It's gotten ugly. No telling what will be next.
Damn. Bad, bad move.
Yeah it is a bad move.
The difference? I will not be surprised to see these kidnappers tried and convicted nor for Israeli police resources to be used to free their hostages.
That's for sure. Whoever these people are, they're going to sit in jail for a long time.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Anyone want to make a bet about Lebanon or Hamas punishing the people who kidnapped the Israelis?
But who expects that?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: The situation in Israel is less about religion than it is about land and territory.
Human, I promise you, if you insist on ignoring the religious aspects of this, you'll never understand the situation. Without those, the political aspects would have died out long ago.
Starlisa is right that this is more about religion than it is about land. Its that the land is controlled by Jews that gets their goat. Afterall, when was the last ime the Arab-street got worked-up because Turkey took land from the the Kurds? But I would also not discount the importance of the Palistinian-Isreali conflict to the tyrants of the Middle East. Its invaluable to them as a rallying point. They encourage their people to vent on this issue because it's better that the oppressed concentrate their anger on Isreal than at home.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Uh, why would Arabs be annoyed Turkey took land from the Kurds? They're two completely different ethnic groups. If anything that argues its less about religion, because the one big thing (other than vaguely similar location) the majority of the Arabs do share with the majority of the Kurds is religion.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: good, as long as we can agree that Hez. is not a lebanese state sponsored militia, and that israel should be focusing their retaliation on only hez, and not acuse lebanon of starting a war
Actually, Hezbollah has significent influence in the Lebanese government:
quote: How else but "restraint" to explain that Hezbollah is operating with impunity, waging new attacks against the West from a position within a Lebanon in which its representatives hold 23 seats in parliament and a Hezbollah official is minister of energy and water.
posted
I'm betting that by one year from now, we'll have coalitions of nations fighting against each other in the middle east. Since Syria and Iran have their militaries on high alert, and Israel may attack, it looks like Israel is going to attack Syria. So essentially, Israel will be fighting against 4 nations like the Yom Kippur War, and probably will start to lose. They may not, and they may win, but when they are fighting a nation like Iran, who is a lot bigger, things will likely turn ugly. The U.S., seeing how Israel will be in a tough situation, will send help to fend off Israel's enemies, as will probably the U.K., and several other U.S. allies.
After this, it's anyone's guess. I'm saying that WWIII is just around the corner as I said not two months ago here, and well, looks like I might just be right. Of course, Israel having one of the best armies in the world, may just be able to handle this themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I don't think Iran will get involved. (Edit: directly involved w/ troops, that is.)
Remember, Israel is a serious nuclear power. I think they'll be very restrained, but they won't let a huge army get from Iran to join up w/ Syria. And Iran knows this.
Not that the Sunnis would particularly like a Shiite army crossing Iraq, either.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Mig and Morbo, you guys are confusing the Hez political and social representation with the militia. Hez is the Shiite representation of Lebanon. The UN makes a very clear distinction between the Hez. militia and the Hez. political party. The former is a terrorist group, the latter a representation of a group of lebanese individuals. And infact, the political Hez. has been working with the rest of the lebanese government to disarm the militia. one of my friends is in beirut, she wrote this on my program's forum today:
"Through Lebanon's "National Dialogue", the government had been making incremental progress towards an agreement on Hezbollah's arms. (Relatedly, the government is mandated to include all parties/sects by the Ta'if accords that ended the civil war; and many decisions are essentially done by consensus, aka each party gets a veto.) At last week's ninth national dialogue session, all participants (Christians, Druze, etc., including Hezbollah) agreed that the issue of Hezbollah's arms was to be solved in small steps... it was a huge deal that they all agreed on anything about this issue (even that the issue needed solving), and analyst-types hailed it as progress.
Besides, Hezbollah's actions against Israel were probably all mandated by Iran and Syria anyway. And they certainly knew the reaction they were going to get from Israel. Hezbollah is basically putting the country hostage for their own sectarian gains.
Where does Israel think this is going to end? Do they have an exit strategy at all, never mind one where they actually leave with more than what they arrived with?"
If lebanon did not include these people in the political process, no progress could ever be made, so your argument that they are harboring terrorists is simply wrong, since in fact they are doing everything in their power (while also trying to avoid alienating a large portion of its citizens and potential civil war) to put an end to the hez. militia and regain control of the country. Unfortunately, Israel and people like you guys don't realize that these things don't happen over night. And unlike other terrorist organizations, Hez does not receive state support from lebanon.
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
We can only fight on one side, I am glad nobody is suggesting that the side we fight on should be Militant Islam. Makes it Black and White to me.
posted
Yes you are right, we can only fight on one side, but that side should be the side of peace, and so far, no one involved in this whole conflict is on that side, as much as they may claim to be.
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posted
So if you saw two people fighting, BC, you wouldn't try to pull them apart, but would slug one or the other?
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: Yes you are right, we can only fight on one side, but that side should be the side of peace, and so far, no one involved in this whole conflict is on that side, as much as they may claim to be.
Except for Israel, you mean.
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posted
If I cared I would slug one or the other, that is what I do, otherwise I would bet on the big guy and sit and watch. I once took on four guys stuffing a kid with DOWNS syndrom in a garbage can, but If I thought a kid had a beating coming I would not stop it short of him needing a hospital.
posted
You are disturbing BC, it makes me sad to read what you just wrote, and not hopeful for the future of this world. And no starLisa, I don't mean except for Israel. By killing more than 50 innocent Lebanese citizens today they have shown that they are just as capable as the terrorists of performing attrocities against the human race.
Under no circumstance, EVER, is innocent human life to be disguarded in this way. Collateral damage is bullshit and not even close to any kind of justification. Human life is sacred, regardless of what religion you believe in, maybe one day you and everyone else involved in this conflict will realise this and this whole thing can be resolved.
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
If everyone thought the way you do Angio, the world would be a much better place. Unfortunately, the world does not, and that is why wars happen.
I still say Israel does what it needs to do and is justified in doing this. Hamas and the Lebanese terrorists brought this upon themselves, and in my eyes, are the ones to blame.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Yes I agree with you, and in the case of the actual terrorists, they do not constitute "innocent civilians", and while I do not condone straight killing them, I realise that there are not many other alternatives when you are in a war-like conflict. However, they are not the only people being targetted by Israel right now, and that is my problem. I would like to see the Israeli gov cooperating with the Lebanese gov to completely disarm the Hez militia and avoid the totally unecesary loss of innonent human life, rather than bombing civilian targets in Beirut.
Can we all agree on that?
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I was on the bbc website, and they have comments from people in Lebanon. I think all of you people who think that all arabs are extremists should read this man's comments
"GABY BAYRAM, 30, CONSULTANT
Everything is very quiet here. The mood is subdued, hesitant and tense.
I live in an area which is usually very lively and noisy with traffic and people walking around. This morning, there were just a few fishermen about.
Yesterday, people were out and about getting on with their daily lives. It's quite the opposite today. The attack on the airport was a real shock. People expect the power stations to be hit tonight and Beirut will be in darkness.
I think Hezbollah's action are completely out of line. They are acting independently of the Lebanese government and have no right to incite this violence against Israel.
Initially, I thought Israel's reactions in destroying Hezbollah positions and escape routes were appropriate. But the killing of civilians and the bombing of civilian installations, including the airport, is completely unjustified and excessive.
I expect it to get worse.
Hezbollah's demands are ridiculous and I don't think they will be met. Lebanon will be reduced to rubble before these prisoners are returned. "
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
But you see, while there is ALMOST no way justify this, you must look at it from the view of Israel's miliary:
They captured our soldiers, what would be the quickest way to militarily get them back? Answer: Attack civilian targets so that they realise if they don't succumb than many innocent lives will be taken. Perhaps if they see the kind's of things being done, they will realise what they themselves are doing.
The terrorists are attacking our people and killing them. The Lebanese government has done nothing to stop them for years? What do we do? Answer: Destroy any and all places the terrorists could use to their advantage. Do anything possible to stop them so that the killing of civilians can end as soon as possible.
Attacking civilians is similar to what the U.S. did to Japan. The atomic bombs effectively ended the war and stopped possibly millions of casualties. Had the U.S. actually invaded Japan, do you know many casulaties there would have been on the side of the U.S? How many MORE civilian casulaties there would have been in Japan? The Japanese populace would have fought to the very last man, which would have effectivly made WWII last many more years with many more casulaties.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I understand the rationale behind what they are doing, but I think that by applying it, they are in essence becoming what they seek to destroy. And for the record, the Lebanese government has been trying to disarm Hezbollah, and in recent months, has been making significant progress (see one of my earlier posts), but these thigns do not and can not happen overnight.
As for the atomic bomb example, you will find if you do some research that many modern historians completely disagree with the points you raised, and condemn the dropping of the atomic bomb as one of the worst wartime decisions made in the 20th century.
posted
Really? I always was under the impression (based on the history channel) that had the U.S. invaded Japan we wand they would have suffered extremely heavy losses. Although you are right, Israel is in essence what they are seeking to destroy. As mentioned earlier, it's only a matter of time before America starts backing Israel and this turns into another World War.
What are you're thoughts?
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
When I was at a University student, one of our teachers brought in an ex-Military expert. I forgot his rank (it was high) and I forgot the class, but I will never forget what he said. It chilled me to the bone.
quote:You can only win a war when you bring it to the civilians.
Whether it is firebombing, nuking, or a devastating full scale attack, you will only win by breaking the will of the country. That only happens by breaking the civilian will.
I don't know if that was his personal opinion or some strategy that military experts "understand," but I am now able to comprehend(not necessarily endorse) why we have done some of the things we have to civilians in war.
These days America seems to be going for the surgical strikes. I applaud our direction but wonder if it will last.
Maybe Israel has been taught the same principal. I am certain Osama Bin Laden has been taught it, and we have not seen the last of 9/11 style citizen attacks. Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
That's funny, I recently saw a show on the history channel that made me re-evaluate my opinion about the bombings of H and N (which was something close to yours) because they presented alot of the evidence in that section of the wikipedia article.
I really do hope we don't have another "world war" on our hands, but I can't really see it happening anyway, because these arab countries simply do not have the resources to fight against nations like Israel and the US in the traditional sense, and alot of their governments (like Lebanon's) don't even want to fight the Israelis, and would be much happier with stability and peace. Also, the whole world probably wouldn't get involved, since it would be costly and economically wasteful of them. So I could see the current "war on terror" getting larger and involving more civilian deaths on both sides, but I don't see a world war anytime in the near future.
(unless all the arab countries band together, and elect a caliph, and.. wait a tic, this sounds familiar... )
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: I understand the rationale behind what they are doing, but I think that by applying it, they are in essence becoming what they seek to destroy. And for the record, the Lebanese government has been trying to disarm Hezbollah, and in recent months, has been making significant progress (see one of my earlier posts), but these thigns do not and can not happen overnight.
As for the atomic bomb example, you will find if you do some research that many modern historians completely disagree with the points you raised, and condemn the dropping of the atomic bomb as one of the worst wartime decisions made in the 20th century.
Many is not true, and most of those who do not agree have little or no experience in military operations.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Israel is not attacking civilian targets, Airports, Power-stations, and bridges are all legitimate military targets, what are they supposed to do leave the route open for missiles to come in? Allow planes to fly in troops or out with the prisoners? Israel has stated that they are at war, and that is how they are fighting.
How many times does a strong man have to let the scrawny loudmouth punch him before he can end the fight? Israel gave them everything, then they decided they wanted all their criminals back too, so they took hostages, now they can reap the whirlwind.
The UN is approaching a density of Hypocrisy where it might actually form an event-horizon from which truth itself can never escape. No other country so provoked would find itself with hands tied. Not the US not Russia, not China or Japan.
This notion of equal force smacks of a story I heard of a liberal judge jailing a man for shooting an assailant who assaulted him with a knife, by the ruling the man would have had to fight it out blade to blade with his attacker instead of defending himself in a quick effective way. Israel's reaction is not only effective, keeping their prisoners in the area by interdicting all traffic, they can track the active terror cells from the air and move in on probable locations of the prisoners. It is also a very good deterrent, next time someone wants to get their way by taking prisoners their fellows will shoot them to prevent the bloodbath that follows.
quote:This notion of equal force smacks of a story I heard of a liberal judge jailing a man for shooting an assailant who assaulted him with a knife, by the ruling the man would have had to fight it out blade to blade with his attacker instead of defending himself in a quick effective way.
Do you know where this occurred? I've never heard of such a case, and it would be fairly groundbreaking with respect to self defense law.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Do you laugh or cry? Wow... It's gotten ugly. No telling what will be next.
Damn. Bad, bad move.
Yeah it is a bad move.
The difference? I will not be surprised to see these kidnappers tried and convicted nor for Israeli police resources to be used to free their hostages.
Anyone want to make a bet about Lebanon or Hamas punishing the people who kidnapped the Israelis?
Actually, I take better odds that Israel does nothing of the sort with regard to criminally punishing the kidnappers. I'll bet you $25 right now on that mark. Arabs are already second-class citizens in Israel, and all this "poor, poor Israel" talk is really built mostly on rhetoric. Ask our Israeli civilian, utka, how many Arab people she knows where she lives. Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population, and interestingly only Christian Arabs hold any political power (which are token seats, really). Israeli Jews are given more government subsidies, couched in the excuse that Jewish military service is mandatory and Arab Israeli military service is voluntary. While "on the books" attempts to mimic equality are present, the social and ethnic gap is common and, sometimes, used for entertainment (example). Israel the government entity is not going to endorse such deplorable action, but that does not mean they have to do anything to stop it when they have soldiers being held across their borders.
What a militant faction of Hamas (like any political party, all are not equal in their extremism) and Iranian-sponsored Hezbollah did and do to Israel on a daily basis is despicable. However, what Israel is currently doing isn't defending itself, it is exacting revenge for what is understandably unfair behavior toward them by militant groups.
So, if you feel that a nation conducting acts of war over what breaks down to revenge is okay, then you are obviously going to support Israel in this fiasco. If you feel that any and all violence is wrong, you are going to decry all sides in the violence. Interestingly, I don't predict anyone really taking sides with Hamas or Hezbollah (though I can forsee a lot of accusations of such popping up from certain individuals). The reality is that the area is so mired in one set of bad behavior as retaliation for another for so many decades, that pretty much everyone shares the fault for keeping this fire burning so strong for so long. Any other assessment is heavily riddled with bias one way or the other.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: You are disturbing BC, it makes me sad to read what you just wrote, and not hopeful for the future of this world. And no starLisa, I don't mean except for Israel. By killing more than 50 innocent Lebanese citizens today they have shown that they are just as capable as the terrorists of performing attrocities against the human race.
Oh, please. Atrocities, my butt. If Israel doesn't act, the Arabs will keep killing us. Our lives come first. We're not going to die for your nutty idea of "peace".
quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: Under no circumstance, EVER, is innocent human life to be disguarded in this way. Collateral damage is bullshit and not even close to any kind of justification. Human life is sacred, regardless of what religion you believe in, maybe one day you and everyone else involved in this conflict will realise this and this whole thing can be resolved.
Get off your high horse, kid. We're happy to live in peace. They just have to leave us the hell alone. They don't, they get hurt. It's that complicated and it's that simple.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I believe Lisa posted a news report in a thread here a few months back about a case where a couple of Israeli citizens were tried and imprisoned for what was an act of terrorism against the Palestinians. I'd guess that you'd lose your $25 in this case.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Actually, I take better odds that Israel does nothing of the sort with regard to criminally punishing the kidnappers. I'll bet you $25 right now on that mark.
I'll take that. If the kidnapping is real, and not just a PR stunt, the kidnappers will be tried and jailed. You have my e-mail address, and when it's time for you to pony up, I'll send you my postal address as well.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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