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I'm wondering if the IDF actually feels like they've accomplished anything yet. So far they've blown up a ton of buildings, killed foreign nationals from at least one friendly nation, killed more than a hundred civilians, including a bus full of innocent people at one point, and...what has it gotten them, other than a heavily damaged warship, and a couple dozen dead Israelis, not to mention yet MORE kidnapped soldiers?
Do they feel that Hezbollah has been hindered in any way just because their office buildings have been taken out? It might set back their political wing, but somehow I doubt they store all their katyushas and drones in the economic ministry.
And I wonder how long this will go on before someone else in the region decides to step in and do something to stop Israel. It won't be a G8 power at this rate, unless Bush actually sends in troops to HELP Israel. But Saudi Arabia and Egypt are right there. I don't think Jordan or Syria would even bother, they know they can't take on Israel, but the first two I mentioned could do a hell of a lot of damage, and short of Bush ordering troops into Saudi Arabia (other than the ones already there), I really don't see how we could stop them before they could wreak havoc.
But that's getting way ahead of myself, I'm more concerned with the first question I asked, does the IDF feel that they've accomplished anything real so far. Do Israelis feel safer now? And as a whole, has it been worth the price?
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quote:Saudi Arabia's government indicated that it held Hezbollah and Hamas responsible for the upsurge in violence in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, the state-run Saudi Press Agency said. ``A difference should be drawn between legitimate resistance and rash adventures carried out by elements inside the state and those behind them without consultation with the legitimate authority,'' according to a statement cited by the Saudi agency. ``These elements alone bear the full responsibility of their irresponsible acts.''
I have no idea how much of this is simply to not annoy us, but Saudi has been the victim of terror attacks in a way it hadn't been at the start of the intifada.
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Wow, this is a bit of a surprise. But a most welcome one. Not that Saudi Arabia was really going to be a major player in this anyway, unless things REALLY escalated, but it's nice to hear some reasonable dialogue coming out of one of the area's more powerful military powers.
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quote: On the verge of one of the most successful tourist seasons Lebanon has ever had, this conflict broke out to further burden a population already suffering from poverty and stagnation. It's a shame for a country that could -- and still can -- be a beacon for true democracy in the region to suffer such a setback. As a Lebanese citizen, I lived through all my life among war, death and destruction -- it grieves me now to see my children living in the same conditions I swore I would never let them see. Iyad Abdelnour, Beirut, Lebanon
I am 16, and I am in Lebanon with my two younger brothers. My parents are frantic with worry, but there is no way out. All major roads in the country have been destroyed. We are stuck, and our embassy is not even answering the phone anymore. We have no idea what is going on. All we want now is to go home. Jenna, Chemstar, Lebanon
I'm an American citizen vacationing with my father in Lebanon. We were set to leave the 14th of July, but since the bombings are stuck in Lebanon. We find ourselves like the Lebanese people: hostages, terrorized by Israeli bombs, with nobody to defend us. We are frantically awaiting relief from the U.S. Embassy. Kellee, Los Angeles, California
I'm Lebanese and I live in the U.S., but I came to Kuwait to visit my parents, and we were all planning on going back home to Lebanon to spend a wonderful summer, as we do every year. But the attacks happened. They destroyed the airports and destroyed every means of transportation for people in the southern villages and towns to leave.
I'm from a small village in the south called Ain-ebel. We do not support Hezbollah, but 15 Israeli missiles hit and destroyed my beautiful village. We are devastated. My relatives are there: my aunt, my cousins and my uncle -- not to mention those Lebanese who were supposed to spend two weeks in Ain-ebel for the summer and leave. Now these people are stuck, in constant fear, under attack. Hezbollah missiles were planted in our village, and they're firing from Ain-ebel's territory without the consent of the people who live there.
The roads that lead to Beirut are destroyed, the bridges that lead to Beirut are destroyed, and everyone is stuck there with no food, no electricity and no water. The people from that village are trying to help our families there by spreading the word that we, those people and towns that do not support Hezbollah or their actions, are innocent. People are hiding in the church, which was renovated not too long ago. It is a big church, but can it take Israeli missiles?
My relatives are scared of dying, are scared of ending up homeless again; we don't not want history to repeat itself. We have had enough. I call on the Lebanese all over the world and the U.N.: Please help my village survive this dreadful act of Hezbollah. I feel betrayed, that nobody is mentioning those people back in my village. Those who have no voice to be heard, I refuse to let them die in vain. Hezbollah is getting out of control to the point of declaring war against Israel, without the consent of the Lebanese government. They are destroying what Lebanon had been trying to rebuild for the past 10 years just for the lives of three prisoners, is it worth it?
I'm not there right now, but I can be their voice. Lebanon will live on. They are fighting each other on Lebanese soil, and this is immoral. Dana K., Tempe, Arizona
quote: I came to live in Israel 15 years ago from the United States. At the time I genuinely believed that there was a great opportunity for peace. But now, as I sit here in my home, not far from Haifa, I realize how things have gone terribly wrong and how much things have changed. I used to be a "leftie." Now I am no longer sure how I would define myself. The only thing that comes to mind is "tired and scared." I ask myself, how did this happen? Where did we go wrong? Why are there rockets and missiles attacking all of us? But one thing is for sure, hatred and anger are seeping into my heart. The sympathy and understanding are flowing out. With each Katyusha that lands here, the flow speeds up. Cheryl, Zichron, Israel
Everyone where I live and study is in a heightened state of worry and danger. We're praying that the crisis ends soon, that the loss of life ends. We just finished a fast, praying for the safety and safe return of the captured soldiers. We've stopped listening to music, stopped shaving and entered a period of mourning. Danny, Jerusalem
I am one of 6 students from Teaneck, New Jersey, who came to Israel for a three-week program from the UJA Federation of Bergen County to work in Nahariya in a day camp for Israelis, teaching them English. We were in Nahariya when the missiles started, and we heard the noises, and even witnessed a field that had been hit by a missile. We spent a total of about eight hours in a bomb shelter, four at night (Wednesday), and four again in the morning (Thursday), and were only then taken out when the roads were "safe enough" for a cab to take us. Where we are now is somewhat of a safer place, but we're still in the relative north. We constantly still hear the missiles hitting, and we see and hear the military planes and helicopters flying above. Initially we were going to be moved in Nazareth, but due to the escalating circumstances, our program has now been cancelled. Personally, I will still be staying in Israel until August 7 as previously planned, but I believe the rest of the kids on the program are being sent home. We're all hoping that the situation improves fast and that Israel and its people will no longer be in danger. Gavi Lewy-Neuman, Shcania, Israel
It sounds a lot worse on both sides than the news is reporting.
Southern Lebanon sounds like it has been utterly devastated, while northern Israel lives in a different kind of steady fear.
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quote: Shortly after Haifa was hit, the head of Israel's northern command, Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, warned civilians in southern Lebanon to head north because "in two or three hours we are going to attack south Lebanon heavily."
Gee, thanks for the warning. Now how the hell are they supposed to comply with all the roads and airports destroyed, and the ports blockaded?
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quote: Do Israelis feel safer now? And as a whole, has it been worth the price?
I don't feel safer in the short term, but I think people up north will be greatful when this is over, assuming it will end the IDF way. I, for one, don't like the fact that Israelis are killed by terrorist groups, in spite of what some people here might think of me.
Though, as a Jerusalemite, it's probably different to me than to people from other places in the country.
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: If it is "necessary" to start sending people away from their homes against their will, why not just send the Israelis elsewhere? That would achieve the same thing without provoking the ire of the neighboring nations.
You didn't seem anything but happy over the expulsion and deportation of 9000 Jews last year. Why all the sadness over that happening to a population of Arabs? Arabs who either engage in terrorism, support terrorism, or simply accept the benefits (to them) of terrorism? The hypocrisy reeks, Tres.
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quote:Then sending the Arabs elsewhere is a sad necessity.
No, it's evil. And if you think this is a good thing, then you are either evil yourself or a pawn of evil.
Oh, wahhh... Dag called me a name. Waaahhh!
It's our home. Not theirs. They have no right to be there. They are squatters, at best. And we've been overly tolerant of them.
There might have been some justification for that overgenerous tolerance if they were peaceful. But they aren't. They kill us and celebrate in the streets over the atrocities. Screw them.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:I disagree that it's an injustice to them. I think they'll be better off as well.
How wonderful for them that you're here to tell them what's best for them.
Just noting it. It's not as though I care a whole lot.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Considering the offense you took when someone suggested the Jews should be grateful for what the Romans did in A.D. 70, I'm kind of surprised you'd even say that, much less mean it.
Gosh, you're so right, Dag. I mean, those damned Jew terrorists, blowing up the Romans left and right. Sneaking into Roman markets and slaughtering peaceful Romans wholesale. Poor Romans, who only wanted to live in peace. No wonder they had no choice other than to murder millions of us and deport us all over the world.
Barf.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:No, I am not. It is the just and proper thing to do. It should have been done 39 years ago. But better late than never.
Proper? Why? Why is it proper to kick people out of a land they've lived in for generations?
You sicken me.
Cry me a river, Dag. It's mutual.
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Before this goes too far, could you please clarify what steps you think would be OUT OF BOUNDS for Israel to take in accomplishing the goal of removing Palestinians from the region?
Why, surely, Bob.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Would you be in favor of removing them by force?
Would deadly force be okay?
If necessary. But certainly not as a first step. Oh, those who are clearly belligerant, yes. I'd frog-march them to the border and push them over. But the rest? I'd start by finding them places elsewhere. An awful lot of them would be happy as clams to get Green Cards and move to the US, you know. And elsewhere. And there are plenty of Jewish philanthropists who'd be happy to donate for the cause.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: What type of compensation would you be in favor of?
Let them collect from the Arab countries who expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews in 1948 and confiscated their property.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: If there is to be no "right of return" should there be a plan for Israel to provide monetary aid to the new host countries in order to adjust to the massive influx of people?
Why? Let them put it against the reparations they owe us for the century of war they've committed against us. We'll call it even.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: If the UN decides that Israel shouldn't do it, do you think Israel should go ahead anyway?
The UN? This was a joke, right? The rest of the questions seemed serious, so this one sort of sticks out like a sore thumb.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: If you have to fight a war with Jordan or other nations to make this happen, would you be in favor of it?
You assume they'd be willing to fight a war over the Palestinians. I'm not so sure. But I suspect they'd know better than to try.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Would you think Israel should do it even under the threat of all-out warfare in the region? Given that open war would cost a lot of Israeli lives too?
As opposed to leaving them there? I think it'd be worth it.
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: If it is "necessary" to start sending people away from their homes against their will, why not just send the Israelis elsewhere? That would achieve the same thing without provoking the ire of the neighboring nations.
You didn't seem anything but happy over the expulsion and deportation of 9000 Jews last year. Why all the sadness over that happening to a population of Arabs? Arabs who either engage in terrorism, support terrorism, or simply accept the benefits (to them) of terrorism? The hypocrisy reeks, Tres.
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It's so comforting that you can act like this is a playground argument when you're discussing the use of deadly force* to relocate of millions of people against their will.
quote:Gosh, you're so right, Dag. I mean, those damned Jew terrorists, blowing up the Romans left and right. Sneaking into Roman markets and slaughtering peaceful Romans wholesale. Poor Romans, who only wanted to live in peace. No wonder they had no choice other than to murder millions of us and deport us all over the world.
If there were 4 million Palestinian terrorists there would be a lot more dead Israelis.
*Willingness to use deadly force:
quote:Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Would you be in favor of removing them by force?
posted
Man, starLisa, I just linked into this discussion and just really wow. You seemed really angry through all that.
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quote:Dag, just to know, what would you approve Israel do in their defense?
I've mentioned some of it here. For example, I think they are mostly in the right of it in their current campaign.
I'm certainly not going to make a list here of everything I think is a moral use of force.
Just to know, do you approve of the forced relocation of 4 million Palestinians, including the use of deadly force if they refuse to leave when faced with threats?
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It's so comforting that you can act like this is a playground argument when you're discussing the use of deadly force* to relocate of millions of people against their will.
And "evil" and "pawn of evil" was grownup talk?
Anyway, you needn't worry. The current regime in Israel is far too timid to do any such thing. It'll be a while yet before we have sane people running things.
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quote:And "evil" and "pawn of evil" was grownup talk?
Yes, actually. Your plan is evil. Naming it as such is the duty of a grownup member of civilization.
As an advocate of that plan, you are serving evil, either wittingly or unwittingly.
When I said, "sicken" I meant it quite literally. The thought that you and others like you might convince Israel to commit this act makes me feel physically ill.
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quote:Originally posted by cmc: Man, starLisa, I just linked into this discussion and just really wow. You seemed really angry through all that.
Yeah, you know, the whole "pawn of evil" thing does tend to irk me.
Lebanon has been permitting Hezbollah to run free without restraint on their border with Israel. Israel has been tolerant. But hell, if Lebanon isn't going to clamp down on them, the responsibility devolves to us. We're doing our best not to attack civilians. Airports had to go, because that's their means of flying our captured soldiers to Iran (as they threatened to do) as well as their means of rearming and increasing their manpower. Airports are a fair target.
Israel will pull out once Hezbollah is neutralized. If Lebanon had been willing to take responsibility for doing this themselves, they wouldn't have been invaded. They made a bad choice, and they're paying the price.
In terms of the Palestinians, we let them shell us with impunity from the moment we pulled out of Gaza. I am furious with the idiots running Israel, who continue to plan similar withdrawals from Judea and Samaria, even after everything we said would happen following the withdrawal from Gaza, and which they denied would happen, has happened. Every last thing.
We said, "Pull out of Gaza, and you'll teach them that terror works. They'll view it as a victory, and the most vicious terrorists among them will win elections."
We said, "Pull out of Gaza, and they'll use it as a staging ground to fire missiles into the rest of Israel." And people, including people on this forum, basically called me a warmonger for making such pessimistic predictions, and said that if they were to do that, Israel could always roll right back in and undo the withdrawal. We said, "If we were to do that, people would go apes**t, and claim that it's unjustified aggression."
Am I angry? You bet your arse I'm angry. I'm furious. Israel has displayed weakness and practically begged for the Arabs to attack us. I blame Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert for the hell Israel is going through now. This was an unnecessary war that could have been avoided by refusing to grant them any concessions whatsoever.
I'm absolutely livid at the "useful idiots of the West", 21st century version, who think that concessions and offers of conciliation will ever result in reciprocation from the Arab side. How insane does a person have to be to keep trying that when it uniformly results in increased violence?
Angry. You don't begin to know how angry I am.
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quote:And "evil" and "pawn of evil" was grownup talk?
Yes, actually. Your plan is evil. Naming it as such is the duty of a grownup member of civilization.
As an advocate of that plan, you are serving evil, either wittingly or unwittingly.
When I said, "sicken" I meant it quite literally. The thought that you and others like you might convince Israel to commit this act makes me feel physically ill.
Take a Dramamine and get over it. We don't have to tolerate the existence of a feral population in our midst. It's enough, and more than enough, and beyond what could ever sanely be considered enough. They must go.
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7 Canadian citizens were killed today. I'm all for getting rid of Hezbollah, but it really doesn't seem like Israel is doing a very good job, and if they are really "doing [their] best not to attack civilians" as starlisa put it, then they must have low standards. This loss of life is totally unacceptable, and is doing more to further this conflict than it ever will to end it.
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They are carpet bombing Berut, the capital, and the death count is less than 200. How many fewer casualties could there be, get real
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quote:Take a Dramamine and get over it. We don't have to tolerate the existence of a feral population in our midst. It's enough, and more than enough, and beyond what could ever sanely be considered enough. They must go.
That's just what the Arab leaders said about you in '48, '67, and '73, you know.
Except the feral part. They have other words that dehumanize.
And yes, I know the rhetoric about driving the Jews into the sea is worse than what you're advocating. I'm sure you realize that there are a lot of evils in the world that aren't as bad as genocide.
I take no comfort in the fact that you'd let them live if they agree to abandon their homes.
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quote:Take a Dramamine and get over it. We don't have to tolerate the existence of a feral population in our midst. It's enough, and more than enough, and beyond what could ever sanely be considered enough. They must go.
That's just what the Arab leaders said about you in '48, '67, and '73, you know.
posted
Like I said earlier, it all boils down to who did something evil first. In Lisa's worldview, the first person to commit an atrocity on a civilian population becomes evil, and thus anything -- in her own words -- is justified in expunging that evil.
She's mentioned several times that she wishes to drive the Palestinians out of the lands she considers Israeli, at gunpoint if necessary. She does not consider this evil because her definition of "innocent" is written to exclude Arabs.
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quote:And "evil" and "pawn of evil" was grownup talk?
Yes, actually. Your plan is evil. Naming it as such is the duty of a grownup member of civilization.
As an advocate of that plan, you are serving evil, either wittingly or unwittingly.
When I said, "sicken" I meant it quite literally. The thought that you and others like you might convince Israel to commit this act makes me feel physically ill.
Take a Dramamine and get over it. We don't have to tolerate the existence of a feral population in our midst. It's enough, and more than enough, and beyond what could ever sanely be considered enough. They must go.
Yet again you refer to them as less than human, unless "feral" isn't meant to be taken seriously.
They aren't squatters. Some of them have been there for generations, when many of the families there now were in Russia, America, and Europe. Your people slaughtered there way through that land a few thousand years ago, then got kicked off in turn, it's the history of the region. Saying "but it's still mine!" doesn't really mean all that much, until you can make it happen. Well now you can certainly make it happen, but that doesn't make you right, and it doesn't mean you'll get away with it unscathed.
I think Israel certainly has the right to do what it's doing now. Maybe they could have gone about it in a different way, but they have a right to defend themselves if no one else can, or will take care of the problem. I think a lot of the damage they are causing is unnecessary, and is probably just revenge destsruction, but the overall proclaimed mission is justified.
I only wonder if they are going about it the best way. Blowing up buses, decimating villages, leveling apartment buildings, that isn't going to destroy or disarm Hezbollah. It's only going to kill innocents and cause massive destruction, which will lead to poverty and a collapse of the local economy. It might be that Lebanon had the ability to stop Hezbollah and chose not to, I don't know all the facts on that, but turning southern Lebanon into a wasteland isn't going to solve their problem. Hezbollah will move somewhere else, be it Syria or Jordan, or Iran, or whoever. Maybe it'll all turn out for the best for Israel, and for the region in general. Only time will tell.
Destroying the airfield wasn't necessary. The captured soldier is probably already out of Israel and Lebanon, or is already to northern Lebanon by now. Israel could control Lebanese airspace, or could ask someone else to interdict it, and control the evacuation of foreign nationals from Lebanon. More soldiers are being captured, and moved.
Morbo - Yeah I forgot that the US evacuated its personnel from KKMC in Saudi Arabia. I realized it after I made the post, but didn't feel like editing it for such (what I considered) a minor mistake.
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Jews throughout the world pledge their property and in exchange for property in the areas that Israel wants to control but which is now claimed by Palestinians. As soon as enough pledges are obtained from both sides so that a reasonably contiguous chunk of land bordering the then-current outline of Israel is made, the swap is made and the Palestinians move onto the property currently owned by the donor Jews, they are given green cards and allowed to work toward citizenship. (cooperation of nations taking in Palestinians would have to be secured in advance, of course, and there'd be background checks to run...
And the donor Jews move to the land that is now part of Israel.
Part of the deal is no right of return to Israel for the Palestinians, but they get clear title to property of real value in their new country -- minimum standards would apply.
And it has to be a swap, person-for-person so that the land in the area in Israel is actually occupied by the people who swapped for it. No wealthy people putting up property in a slum somewhere and then not leaving the host country.
Everyone on BOTH sides has to move. No right of return.
one for one. Land for land.
Everyone gets to keep exactly what they can fit into two suitcases. Period.
PLEASE NOTE: I do not advocate this idea, but I'm trying to frame something that would be inherently equal treatment, completely voluntary, and where the rest of the world wouldn't have to worry about who poked whose eye out first.
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I find it amusing that someone so ardently against the notion of 'society' is so ardently for collective cultural responsibility.
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Lyrhawn, Good question. Maybe those people could exchange for studio apartments in Manhattan or something.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Like I said earlier, it all boils down to who did something evil first. In Lisa's worldview, the first person to commit an atrocity on a civilian population becomes evil, and thus anything -- in her own words -- is justified in expunging that evil.
It's not just a matter of first. It's continual. It's unending, and it comes from a "moral" stance that justifies deliberately murdering women and children and other innocents in order to force us off of our land. It's obscene that people like this should not be treated as war criminals en masse.
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quote:It's obscene that people like this should not be treated as war criminals en masse.
"Criminal" isn't a label that gets applied en masse. It's a label that gets applied after individual determinations.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Yet again you refer to them as less than human, unless "feral" isn't meant to be taken seriously.
Bite me, Lyrhawn. Hard. I'll be damned if I'm going to play this game with you. You know damned well what I meant, and I refuse to be super-careful not to use invective that you can interpret this way. Play your propaganda games if you like.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: They aren't squatters. Some of them have been there for generations, when many of the families there now were in Russia, America, and Europe.
They are squatters. Every last one of them. They invaded my land while we were unable to prevent the invasion. I don't care if some of their families have been there for 13 centuries. Be American, Lyrhawn. Think that 230 years is a long time for a country to be around. We don't look at it that way. We have a bit more historical perspective than that.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I only wonder if they are going about it the best way.
Thanks for your concern.
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Jews throughout the world pledge their property and in exchange for property in the areas that Israel wants to control but which is now claimed by Palestinians.
Bob, factor in Jewish owned land that was expropriated by Arab governments who expelled their Jews in 1948, and not only are we covered on Judea, Samaria and Gaza, but I think we get a good solid chunk of Jordan there, to boot.
Sounds okay to me.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Everyone gets to keep exactly what they can fit into two suitcases. Period.
Heh. Aren't you funny. That's more than those of us expelled in 1948 were allowed, actually.
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quote:It's obscene that people like this should not be treated as war criminals en masse.
"Criminal" isn't a label that gets applied en masse. It's a label that gets applied after individual determinations.
Thanks for the word from law school, Dag. We have no obligation to deal with a nation which has made war against us as nation against nation in any way other than that.
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quote:Thanks for the word from law school, Dag. We have no obligation to deal with a nation which has made war against us as nation against nation in any way other than that.
You choose a word to deliberately evoke Nuremburg, the inaptness of your choice will be pointed out.
The whole problem is that you want to punish individuals for group crimes.
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Jews throughout the world pledge their property and in exchange for property in the areas that Israel wants to control but which is now claimed by Palestinians.
Bob, factor in Jewish owned land that was expropriated by Arab governments who expelled their Jews in 1948, and not only are we covered on Judea, Samaria and Gaza, but I think we get a good solid chunk of Jordan there, to boot.
Sounds okay to me.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Everyone gets to keep exactly what they can fit into two suitcases. Period.
Heh. Aren't you funny. That's more than those of us expelled in 1948 were allowed, actually.
Sorry Lisa, no dice. You missed the part about where the rest of the world gets to ignore the claims of who poked whose eye out first.
Just move one person for one person. Swap one piece of land for another piece of land.
It's also known as putting your money where your mouth is. If you are going to propose the (forced or otherwise) migration of millions of people in order to achieve some fantastical goal, then it'll be worth it to you and a lot of people like you.
Like I said -- it's even-steven from the point the program is started. NO gritching about history. Just get the job done and over, and everyone shuts up afterwards.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Yet again you refer to them as less than human, unless "feral" isn't meant to be taken seriously.
Bite me, Lyrhawn. Hard. I'll be damned if I'm going to play this game with you. You know damned well what I meant, and I refuse to be super-careful not to use invective that you can interpret this way. Play your propaganda games if you like.
Lisa -
If I'm misrepresenting your personal views, it's only because you're misrepresenting them yourself. You call Palestinians, and perhaps Arabs, though I can't specifically recall you blanketing the entire race en masse, "feral" and "animal." You do it willfully, repeatedly. When you keep repeating something like that, how is anyone who reads you supposed to come up with any other conclusion than that you actually believe the things you are saying? Is it really so far fetched to believe that I might take you at your word, despite the attempts you keep making afterwards to make it look like I'm twisting your words?
I'm sick to death of you saying crap then trying to turn it around on everyone else when they actually call you on it. You want people, or me especially to stop hasseling you about your choice of invective? Then take Dag's advice and stop using it entirely.
quote:Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: They aren't squatters. Some of them have been there for generations, when many of the families there now were in Russia, America, and Europe.
They are squatters. Every last one of them. They invaded my land while we were unable to prevent the invasion. I don't care if some of their families have been there for 13 centuries. Be American, Lyrhawn. Think that 230 years is a long time for a country to be around. We don't look at it that way. We have a bit more historical perspective than that.
Blah blah blah. I don't really see how my being American born has anything to with this, but if it makes you feel better to attack me with that, then go right ahead. Whatever helps your self esteem and peace of mind. So your point of view, is that since your ancestors, if you can even trace your lineage originally back to the first Israelites, butchered and conquered their way across what is currently Israel, and managed to kill enough people to get to name the land yourself, then squat there for a couple hundred years before you got tossed off, that you have more of a right to the land than the people who've actually been living there for the last few hundred years?
Since you brought it up, how long was the actual Kingdom of Israel in existance for? 300 years before it broke up? Well only 70 years to go, and I guess we'll have the same sort of longevity you require to be able to proclaim America as ours now and forever, regardless of anything else that ever will happen in the future.
quote:Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I only wonder if they are going about it the best way.
Thanks for your concern.
You aren't welcome. You obviously don't believe that any concern of mine over the well being of Israel is genuine, so why bother to comment on it?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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The problem with Lisa's solution is that, if carried out, Israel would be wiped off the map pretty shortly thereafter.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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Blah blah blah. I don't really see how my being American born has anything to with this, but if it makes you feel better to attack me with that, then go right ahead. Whatever helps your self esteem and peace of mind. So your point of view, is that since your ancestors, if you can even trace your lineage originally back to the first Israelites, butchered and conquered their way across what is currently Israel, and managed to kill enough people to get to name the land yourself, then squat there for a couple hundred years before you got tossed off, that you have more of a right to the land than the people who've actually been living there for the last few hundred years? 
