posted
Hmmm, I thought I read that he was a small-time musician. But I don't really want to google it from work, either. kat, I wasn't thinking of Sambora, because I was sure he wasn't that famous. So you think he was just some random guy, JT? Why would she hook up with him?
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posted
Ah, found it, he was Shannen Doherty's husband at the time they made the tape. So no, not famous.
Here's the article I was thinking about. It's kinda long, and it makes comparisons between reality TV and porn, and talks frankly, so it might not be to everyone's taste.
quote:As Blatt suggested and the Times article explained, 1 Night in Paris wasn’t exactly the end of Paris Hilton’s life. “Ms. Hilton tried to stop distribution of the tape, although its notoriety paradoxically catapulted her to an even higher orbit of fame, establishing her as a kind of postmodern celebrity, leading to perfume deals, a memoir, and the covers of Vanity Fair and W,” the Times wrote.
Because of U.S. Code 2257, the Kid Rock video will never be distributed without his permission. But what about Paris Hilton’s? According to the Times article, Paris Hilton receives profits from her sex tape. According to Blatt, “There’s no way of putting out the DVD unless Paris Hilton signed off on it.” Without connecting the dots explicitly, Blatt hints that the second video of Paris and Rick Salomon, the better-quality version, was produced subsequently, with both parties’ full cooperation, for mutual profit. “Put it this way,” Blatt says, “by looking at both tapes, I believe she’s aged somewhat since then, a different hair style, et cetera, more consistent with how she looked on [The Simple Life] than when she was 19.” (Ms. Hilton’s manager and agent were contacted several times to comment on this story but did not reply.)
Why would Paris Hilton allow the tape to be released? The easy supposition is that all people, even billionaire heiresses, like to make a little more money. The more complicated theory is that she needed something more important to her than money—celebrity. While Paris Hilton’s appearance on The Simple Life mocked her disconnection from the common folk, she seemed to share the common desire of reality TV participants for fame. With fame, the logic goes, comes more fame, as well as further appearances on TV, lines of print in the newspapers and tabloids, not to mention business opportunities, memoirs, and the like. The only thing shocking about that motivation is Paris Hilton’s apparent willingness to participate in her own public degradation. But then again, the payoff hasn’t been so bad, so maybe Paris is onto something. As Kevin Blatt might put it, the media loves this shit.
posted
My understanding was that the two of them were dating when the tape was made. As for why, I couldn't begin to guess. Her's is not a mind I'm comfortable stepping into to guess motivation.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
To be fair, there's a very big difference between women who use sex as a primary aspect of themselves and try to make that why other people value them and women who have a strong sense of self respect and deep personalities and also like to have sex.
Looking down on the one does not necessarily involve looking down on the other. I know for myself, I am - now that I'm older and possibly wiser than I was - somewhat repulsed by the first type but strongly attracted by the second.
Of course, this is not at all limited to sex and that it is sex that earns such approbation (but also vivid interest and attention) is, to me, both a symptom and a cause of America's hangups with sex.
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I don't like using pejorative terms like skank because that refers to the person and not what they are doing, and therefore it lacks nuance. But I admit that part me of thinks that if anyone qualifies, it would be a self-promoting porn star.
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posted
I was thinking about this thread and I realized that, while I don't use perjorative terms for promiscuity freely (except with my friends in a tongue in cheek manner), I do throw the term 'crazy' around quite a bit.
Like, "Yeah, she's hot. But she's crazy, and not in a cute and neurotic way, either. In a 'stab you in the neck with the handle of a butcher knife' way."
Now, to be fair, I only do it to describe people who's behavior I've observed; if it's just a rumor that someone is crazy, I don't comment.
But I'm not the only one guilty of this. A lot of my friends use that descriptor for both guys and girls, and it's like an instant veto of that person's dating eligibility in most cases.
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posted
I wanna know how you stab someone in the neck with the handle of a butcher knife. Sounds like a weird prison shiv or something...
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quote:But I admit that part me of thinks that if anyone qualifies, it would be a self-promoting porn star
Katie, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
Do you mean someone who exploits porn for their own image while maintaining that image (ie porn) isn't them?
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I meant someone who is self-promoting to the end of getting attention for it's own sake and is also a porn star.
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Hmm...I really am kind of uncomfortable with the term. It's very dismissive of a person's humanity, and I hate that it's only applied to women.
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posted
Sorry - I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable.
I was trying to work out whether it was the 'porn star' aspect or the 'self-promoting-as' aspect that was getting to you.
For what it's worth, I hate the term 'slut' for exactly the same reason. It is dismissive, and it is pejorative of women. A 'man-slut' doesn't have the same connotations as just 'slut' does, and I hate that some people can't see it's a horribly degrading word.
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To be fair though, aren't there judgments against men which don't apply to women?
Interestingly, I've heard gay men referred to as sluts, and in that case, it does seem to have the same connotations.
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quote:Originally posted by imogen: Sorry - I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable.
I was trying to work out whether it was the 'porn star' aspect or the 'self-promoting-as' aspect that was getting to you.
For what it's worth, I hate the term 'slut' for exactly the same reason. It is dismissive, and it is pejorative of women. A 'man-slut' doesn't have the same connotations as just 'slut' does, and I hate that some people can't see it's a horribly degrading word.
Would the pejorative bother you less if it was applied equally to men and women?
Because honestly, while I understand that for the most part it is applied to women, people in my everday life definitely apply it with equal frequency and equal meaning to both genders, and this seems to be an increasing trend.
Posts: 246 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Imogen & kat, for what it's worth what bothers me about the Paris Hilton situation is the hypocrisy. On record, the tape was distributed without her approval. In actuality, she almost definitely signed a release and gets part of the proceeds. And she pulls all these stunts that are calculated to generate more publicity. Did you read the article I linked? Here's another exerpt:
quote:When Blatt was trying to promote 1 Night in Paris, he ran into a problem Barnum would have recognized. Although David Joseph, the president of Red Light District, was willing to spend big bucks to advertise the DVD, Blatt soon discovered that no one would take their money because of the notoriety of the subject matter. He tried innocuous billboards and radio spots but was unsuccessful in securing any contracts.
In the end, two forces helped get the word out. The first was the mainstream media’s willingness to report on the story again and again. As Blatt puts it, “You need to give them what they want—something very salacious, very inside, that scoops everybody else.” The second factor was Paris Hilton herself. According to Blatt, “She was her own worst enemy. Every day there’d be something stupid that would happen to Paris and she’d be her own news. The more she wished bad juju on the tape, the worse shit happened to her. One morning, someone sent me an anonymous picture of her leaving Hustler Hollywood with a copy of her own DVD in her hand. I was like, ‘This is genius, this should be in every newspaper in the country,’ so I sent it out. Did I stage it? No way. You can’t stage something that perfect. When she stole the DVD off that newsstand…you can’t ask for better press.”
Emphasis mine. So does it lower my opinion of her that she had sex with this guy? Nope. That he was married to someone else at the time? Yep. That it was on video? Nope, he almost certainly made the first tape without her knowledge. That's not her fault. That she then made a second tape and gave permission to distribute it while still publically claiming that she didn't plus did things that she knew would get her in the press and promote the tape. . . THAT'S what I think is poor form. So I wouldn't label her a skank, I'd label her a hypocritical, dishonest manipulator.
You know, if I cared enough to pay attention. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Um, I watched both, and there's no way she didn't know she was being filmed in the first one. I only watched part of it, but it wasn't a distant stationary camera -- it was handheld.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:I hate the term 'slut' for exactly the same reason. It is dismissive, and it is pejorative of women. A 'man-slut' doesn't have the same connotations as just 'slut' does, and I hate that some people can't see it's a horribly degrading word.
I think that calling a man a slut is pretty much identical to calling a woman a slut.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Like, "Yeah, she's hot. But she's crazy, and not in a cute and neurotic way, either. In a 'stab you in the neck with the handle of a butcher knife' way."
posted
I have a hard time believing that she didn't know she was being filmed.
I think she is skanky, because she has done all the things she mentioned, and she did it with sex.
I get the feeling that that's what I'm being driven to say: That to beg for and court attention using sex - not innuendo or sensuality, but actual sex - is sleazier than it would be otherwise. I am perfectly willing to claim that sentiment.
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I think part of the reason the term "slut" and "skank" get applied more often to women is that a lot of people I know think of "slut" and "skank" as meaning "someone who has a lot of sex for reasons other than pleasure," as opposed to someone who just enjoys sex for sex's sake.
I'm making a sweeping generalization here, but women are more likely to be having sex for reasons that have nothing to do with pleasure and enjoyment.
Posts: 246 | Registered: Jul 2006
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I think the part where Paris feels she needs to hold sex over guys' heads but just out of reach to keep them makes her a skank.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I have a problem with people whose only discernable talent is milking their sexuality for fame and fortune.
Why?
I've never quite understood why, of all the qualities one might possess that could be used for fame and fortune, that sexuality is the one that gets mocked. If that's your strength, why not? I was much more bothered by the cheating aspect of Hilton's tape than the somewhat boring sex part of it.
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I think the someone else's husband part is scuzzy, but I don't blame her for the guy she was sleeping with being married. I don't like blaming the other woman/man in such a situation. The married person is the one who is lying and betraying.
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posted
I think of all the moral issues going on there, that is among the least important. His faithfulness is not her responsibility. He's an adult. If she got him drunk, then maybe.
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posted
So its not really a moral issue to telling someone to lie to get out of a jam they are in, for example?
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"Blame" might be the wrong word. I think less of her, that much is certain. I would have to hear a lot more about Rick's marriage and whatever situations might justify an affair before I wouldn't. Was Rick's wife aware and OK with it? Got no problem with that. Were they separated? Was she fooling around herself? No clue.
It's not the letter of the marriage contract. It's the dishonesty and the shameful treatment of a commitment. Unless something else was going on I don't know about, I think she should have stayed out of his bed (or chair, or whatever) until he resolved the situation with his wife.
Edited to add: his faithfulness was not her responsibility. True. Her participation in his faithfulness is.
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posted
It would certainly be ladylike to not participate, but she isn't morally at fault for not taking his vows more seriously than he does.
I think cheating is terrible. He's a scumbag. But I blame him. She dated someone who made himself available to her. If he shouldn't have done that, it's on his head.
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If I were in Paris' shoes (wow -- there's a sentence I never thought I'd type), I wouldn't be able to date someone I knew was in a relationship, no matter how cavalierly they treated said relationship. But maybe that's a personal thing. I'm not ready to give her the pass that kat's giving her for that, but that's just personal preference.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
She dated a married man who made himself available to her. The fact that she considered a married man "available" marks her down for me.
I would still think much less of him, if I didn't already for releasing the tape in the first place (breaking another commitment, at least the first time). But if she knew going in that he was married, to my eyes she is not blameless. Had she not participated, it would not have happened. Or, at least, not with her.
If someone walks up and asks me for a ride and doesn't tell me he's a bank robber on the way home from work, I would be blameless for his crime even if I drove him to the airport and waved as he boarded. If he did tell me, showed me his sack of loot, and I still gave him a ride, would I then be an accessory? In the eyes of the law, yup. I didn't commit the crime, but I helped facilitate it with full knowledge of what I was doing.
I'm fuzzy on the moral thing, myself. But if nothing else I think it was a stupid thing to do, and disrespectful of the wife and the concept of marriage.
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I'd never do it (and I've never done it), but I think it is a personal thing. I think that if someone says they are available, then they are. They might still be a crummy person and a liar and a cheater and a bad idea, but for the purposes of a new datee/dater, a person's availability is defined by his or herself.
Even if I were single, I'd never do it for a dozen reasons, starting with Anyone I'm Dating Only Dates ME and including What Kind of Loser Cheats and Why Would I Want Anything To Do With Him? and No, I Don't Think So, I Like Good Men.
I'm not giving her a pass, but I don't think that's the biggest problem there.
I just don't like blaming The Other Woman in these situations. Adults choose who they get romantically involved with. I don't think it's women's responsibility to save men from themselves.
I'm not only blaming The Other Woman, or giving him a pass. I'm not marking her with a scarlet A, either. I'd feel the same if she had been married and he was The Other Man. If a person is married, then unless both parties in the marriage agree that dating is allowed, that person is not available no matter what his or her personal opinion on the matter might be.
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I dislike her much more because she's rude, mean, self-centered and treats everyone else like crap than her sexual misadventures. She's just so narcissistic that she is happy to make other people miserable, hurt them, use them, and it doesn't even register to her that she's doing anything wrong.
I made the mistake of seeing a couple of her shows, and she's just such a bad person, it makes me a little sick.
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I think the South Park episode revolving around her pretty much nailed the whole situation involving her and her place in the media.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote: I wonder how you get to that, though. It is many things, but I wouldn't say it's skanky. What definitions of skanky are you using?
I was using it as describing someone who has an unhealthy attitude in general about dating, sex, and the relationship between the two. Vague, but that's pretty much how my understanding of the word (it's slang, right?) is.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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As much as the media loves to say she's one of the "hot" ones, I really don't find her attractive AT ALL... She looks... like a cross between a mouse and a snake. But hey, to each his/her own.
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quote:I hate the term 'slut' for exactly the same reason. It is dismissive, and it is pejorative of women. A 'man-slut' doesn't have the same connotations as just 'slut' does, and I hate that some people can't see it's a horribly degrading word.
I think that calling a man a slut is pretty much identical to calling a woman a slut.
Really? I completely disagree.
I think it is a much, much tamer word when referring to a man.
Maybe it's different in a sub-culture where pre-marital sex full stop is frowned upon.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:posted by katharina: Adults choose who they get romantically involved with.
I think that's the point, really. She made a choice just as much as he did.
quote:They might still be a crummy person and a liar and a cheater and a bad idea, but for the purposes of a new datee/dater, a person's availability is defined by his or herself.
Not completely. To an extent, I'd argue that the new datee also defines the availability of that person. Specifically, when Jack asks himself, "should I get involved with Jill," he is determining her availability, not in general, but with reference to himself.
I have some experience in dating a girl who's taken, and it was just a nasty situation. Not all of that was my fault, and it worked out better for me and the girl in the end, but it was enough to make me rethink my position on the issue.
At the time, it was very convenient for me to look at the issue and say, "well, she made herself available. Who am I to make that decision for her? I'm interested and I should take her up on it." That she made herself available is true, but it doesn't change the fact that I chose to take her up on it, and am therefore as responsible for her cheating as she was.
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quote:I hate the term 'slut' for exactly the same reason. It is dismissive, and it is pejorative of women. A 'man-slut' doesn't have the same connotations as just 'slut' does, and I hate that some people can't see it's a horribly degrading word.
I think that calling a man a slut is pretty much identical to calling a woman a slut.
Really? I completely disagree.
I think it is a much, much tamer word when referring to a man.
Maybe it's different in a sub-culture where pre-marital sex full stop is frowned upon.
It's only tamer for men if you have a double-standard about sex for men and women.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:There are all these negative words for women who enjoy sex, and very few for men.
I've been thinking about this thread today and this issue in particular. Something odd occured to me. Probably just a coincidence.
For all they are applied to women, all these perjoratives are very masculine sounding words. Skank. Slut. Whore. Ho. One syllable. They sound like something a caveman could grunt.
Now, the one and only male term I could think of has a very effeminate sound to it. Gigolo. Three syllables. It is hard to imagine a macho gigolo.
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kat, I wasn't thinking of Sambora, because I was sure he wasn't that famous. So you think he was just some random guy, JT? Why would she hook up with him?
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