quote:Originally posted by Roseauthor: Rhetoric doesn't matter much. We all have stories of who died and by what cause we believe them to have died from. In the end, I'll still say, ride a damn bike, stop costing insurance industry more money by being a fatarse. And stop using chemicals!
Emotional appeal isn't a good logical argument. Sorry. I have plenty of stories of my family and friends. Compare and contrast isn't logical.
It's why I prefer to rely on the most well-collected data and the established risk factors therein. It looks like the people in your accounts diverge from the norm -- which doesn't make the stories any less painful, of course! Just that they are probably not the accounts on which to base systemic policy decisions.
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Edited to add:
Ah, well, top of the page post. I'll repost the text of my earlier post here as well, just so it doesn't get lost in the mists of Page 1.
quote:Originally posted by Roseauthor: Let's list all the fat ailments: asthma, liver disorder/failure, diabetes, cardiac, respiratory, skin infections, (staph). digestive-colon cancer, colon failure, pancreatic cancer/and blockages due to growths. Glaucoma, arthritis, RLS, do we need more???
Being overweight is a risk factor for developing asthma and glaucoma? Most etiologies of liver disorder or failure? RLS (restless leg syndrome)?
quote:However, over-weight people are more of a health concern on the industry than smokers.
I don't think the CDC or WHO data supports this.
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Edited again to add:
The CDC cites about $167 billion per year ("annual costs") as the economic burden of cigarette smoking (for years 1997-2001) as compared to $78 billion per year (their high estimate) for obesity/overweight (specifically for 1998).
posted
I'm still curious also about the attribution of obesity/overweight as a risk factor for developing asthma, glaucoma, most etiologies of liver disorder or failure, and RLS (restless leg syndrome?). I don't think this is accurate, and I think it might skew how you are interpreting the data.
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Trans fat might well turn out to be a huge problem. I don't think that question has been remotely near settled in the medical literature, though, and I don't think it is equitable to overweight/obesity. It is a separate (albeit related issue), and the data that has been collected and analyzed just doesn't support your claims. Particularly not with the level of certainty the claims are expressed, but not really at all, in my opinion.
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This is the same amount of evidence that the CDC dictates for smoking related... in fact.. there is less evidence in nicotine related illness than there is in FAT related illness.
Smoking related illness is based upon a computer program.. nothing more! It can NOT be determined how many people die from smoking other than a computer program.. And... as a Computer coder.. the fact is.. I can't believe a program!... NO coder would!
It's not like a person DIES and someone determined it was smoking related and punched into some database as real DATA!
The fact is... There are NO REAL bodies on the smoking related deaths data. It's just a computer program!
Posts: 163 | Registered: May 1999
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Roseauthor, your links don't say what you think they say. From the first one, "total cost of obesity in the United States in 2000 was about $117 billion." That isn't more than $167 billion a year.
I agree obesity/overweight is a major health problem. It just isn't more of an economic issue than cigarette smoking.
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It is more than a computer program. It isn't based on coding alone. It is based on autopsies, hard data gathered in epidemiological studies to identify risk factors, and the like. That information is entered into a computer program, as you say, but so is the data for obesity/overweight as a risk factor. They are not different entities in this manner.
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From your second link: "Obesity could soon overtake smoking as the leading killer of Americans." [emphasis added] That means it hasn't yet.
I don't see anything in the third link that specifically compares the economic or health burden of obesity/overweight to that of cigarette smoking, nor do I see numbers that can be used to make that comparison for the current or recent situations.
The fourth link is actually counter to your argument, presenting the case by FOX News that the CDC has overestimated the burden of obesity, citing the CDC's 2004 downward revision of the estimated deaths due to obesity. Additionally, from that same link:
quote:First, there is little evidence to support the notion that otherwise healthy adults have shorter lifespans simply because they may be overweight. In fact, the new CDC study reported that adults who are merely “overweight” actually live longer on average than adults who are of “normal weight.”
Next, there is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that, for otherwise healthy children, childhood weight determines or impacts longevity.
Your fifth link specifies that obesity is not the number one cause of mortality in the US, similar to the second link. This is counter to your argument. Additionally, the data cited in this article are quite outdated (and to your conclusion's detriment), since the CDC has since revised that cited 400,00 deaths per year attributable to obesity/overweight down to about corrected: less than 1/13th that number (see link four, the FOX article, for details).
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quote:How much more do you need?
Given that none of your links support your claims, but in fact disprove them, I'd say there is still quite a bit more necessary.
Again, I don't disagree that obesity/overweight is a major health problem. I just dispute the claims you have specifically made in this thread about the burden of it relative to the burden established for cigarette smoking.
posted
no, it's a program. They didn't use real human data. NOT one coroner would tell you he reported 'smoking related' to the CDC for this program.
Check your programmers. Check the coroners and ask them if they added this to their database! It didn't happen.. it's just a program.
Quit minimalising the fat issue. This health issue is more of a concern than the smoking! Only 18% smoke now.. over 70% are over weight.. let's look at the basic numbers! FAT is worse! More COST MORE
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quote:Originally posted by Roseauthor: no, it's a program. They didn't use real human data. NOT one coroner would tell you he reported 'smoking related' to the CDC for this program.
And that is different from obesity-related data in what way?
quote:Quit minimalising the fat issue. This health issue is more of a concern than the smoking! Only 18% smoke now.. over 70% are over weight.. let's look at the basic numbers! FAT is worse! More COST MORE
*again, gently
I think you are confusing your passion (which is indeed formidable) with evidence. Passion doesn't substitute for well-gathered data or critical analysis.
This is quite well illustrated in your last post -- those numbers, like the links you gave, do not imply what you think they do. Unfortunately, I think it is beyond my skill to explain to you why, though I would be willing to try if it might help.
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Edited to add: On further reflection, I doubt any such interaction would improve the situation. I think I'll bow out for now (my apologies!), though I reserve the option to correct future inaccuracies in claims about matters of fact if I see them.
posted
Smoking is a 'dirty' habit, if by that you mean stained teeth (avoidable in the medium term with good oral hygeine, but it is causing the stains even if you are cleaning them off), smelly clothes, house etc. It's also addictive, bad for the health, and tends to have a diminishing effect over time, which encourages people to smoke more.
On the upside it fosters extra chances for social contact, and can relieve stress and be enjoyable (though a certain part of that is merely alleviation of withdrawal symptoms)
Smoking weed is also related to all these effects, but is usually smoked far less often than even a medium cigarette smoker would smoke cigarettes. Thus the habit itself is significantly less 'dirty'. Smoking weed is not addictive (chemically at least), although the tobacco it's normally smoked with is. The amount and frequency smoked will also tend to increase over time, as with smoking, but the perception at least, is that it tends to happen differently. Most people who smoke weed socially will not end up smoking intermittently throughout the day, whether alone or not. It would be seen as something more akin to alcohol, where people do tend to become heavier or more frequent drinkers after starting drinking, but not everyone goes on to become an alcoholic. Weed is also harmful to the health when smoked, though this is not the only method of ingestion. Weed also has many psychological effects that are not well understood at the moment. It is thought to be a risk factor for developing schizophrenia amongst other things, especially if smoked regularly or heavily by young teenagers.
On the upside, smoking weed can be a very pleasurable experience, the effects far stronger and longer lasting than cigarettes, and is very often a very social event - when people are passing around a joint it'd be very strange not to interact with each other. Though in heavy smokers smoking alone can be common, and the social benefits can be lost. It is also often linked to creativity by many people, whether or not you give that any credence, I'll leave up to you.
So the opinion of lots of people I know is that smoking is dirty, and stupid - since they think the benefits are few and the downsides serious; but they feel that smoking weed is less dirty (re: frequency), and risky - since there are clear benefits, but potential dangers (especially if you were to become a heavy weed smoker), but their opinion as to the stupidity varies depending on how risk-taking they are.
I tend to share that opinion mostly, since smoking isn't hugely great and addiction and disease are very high risks. Whereas I see smoking weed more as I see my flatmate's addiction to climbing. He really enjoys it, there are clear benefits from that - but there is a fair amount of potential danger there as well. One of his friends died recently, and they're always getting injured. It's dangerous, I don't know if I would do it, but I don't think it's stupid to knowingly take that risk, in pursuit of that enjoyment. Life would be very boring if no-one took risks, it's just balancing the risks against the potential benefits that's necessary.
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Smoking is a 'dirty' habit, if by that you mean stained teeth (avoidable in the medium term with good oral hygeine, but it is causing the stains even if you are cleaning them off), smelly clothes, house etc.
I remember the "smoking stains your teeth, yellows your eyes, and makes you smell" ads; I guess those are the anti-smoker ads we've discussed here before. I remember is the Truth campaign, because their commercials grabbed your attention. The Philip Morris ads stick out in my mind because they were so ironic. There's a life insurance ad that has been running in this area for years which states that the low premiums it advertises are only available for nonsmokers. DARE didn't dissuade me from smoking or doing drugs as much as it made me interested in biology, and curious about this strange minefield called "Adolescence."
Nobody I knew personally smoked in my presence, and I was never offered a cigarette when I was growing up. I remember being mildly surprised upon discovering that a few of my peers were smokers.
I liked reading, and the science behind the dangers of smoking is simple enough that I could understand it, even at that a young age. My aunt was a smoker and she had a hard time quitting. At the time I couldn't understand addiction -- and that scared me more than lung cancer.
All in all, I was never presented with the opportunity to start, and was never inclined to seek it out myself.
posted
1 . Did/do you like the fact that you smoke? If so, what did/do you like about it? I like smoking for the buzz, for having something to play with in my hand, and for the way smoke moves through the air. I love to smoke and read. I'm a bit mixed on the fact that I smoke, mostly because of of the health and economic reasons. I smoke a pack every three-to-four days.
2. Did you start smoking after people officially knew it was "bad for you" (eg 1960s) and if so, did you have any formal "anti-tobacco" education? Were you a smoker at that time? How did you feel about it then? Do you think they helped a lot of people not become smokers, or make it nerdier not to smoke? How do you feel about such programs now? I know I had education about smoking at various points in my childhood. I don't really remember much of it. Smoking wasn't something I cared about.
3. Did your parents smoke? Did they care whether or not you smoked? My father smoked, but quit (cigarettes) before I was born. He still had the odd cigar on occaision, which was something on the order of 2-3 a year. Both my parents have made it clear to me that they would like me to quit.
4. Did you see lots of ads for cigarettes when you were little? Did they make you think smoking was cool? How do you make your decisions on which brand of cigarettes to purchase? I can just barely remember seeing cigarette ads on TV, and they used to be everywhere in magazines. I never remember looking at those ads and thinking "I need to try that!"
I smoke American Spirits (I know, I'm a hippie) because they don't have additives. Except that I smoke menthols, so go figure. I can really taste the difference, but am under no illusions that they are a "healthier" cigarette.
5. Growing up, what did you think about cigarettes? Were you anti-smoking as a little kid? As I said before, I really didn't.
6. Did you ever want to smoke because a movie character did? Did movies make smoking look cool? Look cool? yes. Like it or not, smoking can be an effective way to set a mood. Again though, they never made me want to rush out and buy a pack.
7. Did an older role model that you knew personally smoked? Nope.
8. Do you associate smoking with rebellion, fitting in or neither? A bit of each. More so with rebellion now, because smoking is losing social acceptance. It's going to be kind of funny later in life when younger generations look on mine as the generation that was educated about nicotine, but was stupid enough to smoke anyway. It's going to be weird explaining it to my kids, when I have some. I feel the same way about the Bush, Clinton, Bush (Clinton?) presidential line.
9. How did you first start smoking? Were you legally allowed to buy cigarettes when you stared? I was 18 when I started smoking (I'm 23 now). I tried tobacco to go along with weed. It's only become a habit in the last 3 years or so and was very periodic before that. I quit the pot (the experience changed, I don't find it at all enjoyable anymore), but still going with the tobacco.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
1 . Did/do you like the fact that you smoke? If so, what did/do you like about it?
For awhile, I was impressed by the fact of my smoking. Now, it's more of a habit, so I don't really think about it.
Working in the service industry as I do, I wouldn't get breaks at all if not for the fact that I smoke. Before I smoked, at one of my jobs, I got in trouble for taking breaks like the smokers did. The rationale was, "You're not a smoker; you don't need that break." At my current job, a smoker will tend to get a nearly-guaranteed break at eleven and at two as opposed to the maybe-one-maybe-none a non-smoker gets (assuming the smoker and non-smoker are both working from eight to five with no breaks officially mandated). If we're not busy, the smoker may get another two at ten and four. (Of course, if we're really busy, all breaks are imaginary, but management tries to ensure that smokers get a "reasonable" number of breaks.)
I associate smoking with relaxing. On my drive home from work, I tend to smoke three cigarettes in a row. It feels like a concrete symbol that my time is now my own, that I don't have to rush if I don't want to, that I can do what I want at my own pace.
Smoking also gives me something to do when I would otherwise be impatient. I was in a bad traffic jam the other day and got off at a different exit than my usual one. That exit was mobbed by people getting off the freeway to avoid the jam plus the usual amount of traffic for that intersection. For the people getting off the freeway, they had to merge through three lanes to get to the left turn to continue on the way they wanted to go. As I was waiting to merge, I saw arms begin to extend from cars, all holding cigarettes. Non-smokers I've seen have sometimes ranted and raved or taken risks because of their impatience in a slow driving situation. I, like these other people, merely smoked another cigarette and waited.
I also notice that smoking is something that my friends and I do while talking. Sometimes, when it's not my turn to speak, I used to find myself actively fidgeting while listening. Smoking is a routine that allows me to do something that feels useful but that is so automatic that I can still pay attention. I can't tell you how many deep and heartfelt conversations I've had with close friends while sharing a pack of cigarettes. It feels more intimate that we're smoking as we talk. It feels like it's not a rushed information-gathering expedition like many other talks I've had. It feels like time set aside for conversation. It feels sort of old-fashioned like writing a letter long-hand rather than sending an e-card.
Two of my coworkers are reluctant smokers. One had almost quit. Then she got back into this job, and gradually started smoking a cigarette a week. Then one a day. Then one or two a day. The other one had quit under pressure from her, and now is up to a pack every two or three days or so. I try not to pressure either of them to smoke, and I know I smoke far more than either of them. From time to time, we will, two or three of us, take a break together and have a cigarette, usually at the end of a long shift. Think, if you both come in at eight am, stay until five pm, then come back at eight-thirty pm and stay until one am, and talk all the time indoors about work issues, and then you go outside and smoke and talk about funny things that have happened to you or vent your frustrations, it's like that. Outside, the conversation isn't goal-oriented.
Sometimes, a few times a day, you just need to stop rushing around and look at different scenery and to forget the regular stresses of the job.
2. Did you start smoking after people officially knew it was "bad for you" (eg 1960s) and if so, did you have any formal "anti-tobacco" education? Were you a smoker at that time? How did you feel about it then? Do you think they helped a lot of people not become smokers, or make it nerdier not to smoke? How do you feel about such programs now?
I started smoking in 2004, and for my entire life, everyone always knew it was bad for you. In fact, for my entire life, smoking commercials were not allowed on TV. I had "DARE" in elementary school, and several teachers in junior high and high school who went out of their way to point out how dumb smoking is. One high school teacher who I knew of got ahold of math textbooks from another country and pointed out how awesome it was that they had anti-smoking messages inserted between the chapters. He also, as a mathematician, pointed out that many people seemed to think that it was statistically likely that they would win the lotto but statistically unlikely that they would die from causes related to their smoking, while the reverse is more likely to be true.
At the time, I had just a sort of general boredom with the proceedings. Like many forms of overt preaching, I found it to be preachy. Some forms of the presentation were fun, but for the most part, it was dull stuff, endlessly repeated. There was also a sense of black and white thinking and naivety that made the whole thing seem unimportant or irrelevant.
3. Did your parents smoke? Did they care whether or not you smoked?
My parents never smoked or drank and acted rather self-righteous on that count. They both seemed to believe that rather large character flaws could be made up for by the fact that they were "clean," in this way.
One of my brothers smokes, probably as much as or more than I do. He has smoked since he was fourteen or fifteen, first hanging around with my friends who smoked who made it clear that they would give me cigarettes if I wanted them (though I didn't) and later making smoker friends his own age.
My mother, who doesn't know I smoke, seems to regard my brother smoking in much the same way she regards my living with my boyfriend. It is a sign of moral depravity and immaturity, and you should take the fact of that behavior (and your desire for that behavior) as a sign that you must repent and turn to the light. She is also deeply disappointed.
My father is a small enough persona in my life that the fact that he doesn't know I smoke is immaterial.
My older sister has expressed disappointment and disapproval and a willingness to help me quit whenever I choose that I find far more convincing and sympathetic.
4. Did you see lots of ads for cigarettes when you were little? Did they make you think smoking was cool? How do you make your decisions on which brand of cigarettes to purchase?
I remember the occasional billboard of all-American-type people outside at a park all grinning maniacally as they did something so fun it appeared to have melted their brains (none of them smoking) with a large picture of a pack of cigarettes on the side. Naturally, I thought that these advertisements were strange more than anything else.
I was more impressed by the people I knew who smoked. They tended to be hedonistic, slightly-older teens who stood outside smoking, avoiding police, ditching school, dying their hair strange colors, and getting piercings. They seemed cool because they had a somewhat cynical, anti-establishment sort of cachet, plus they acted like they were adults. They also tended to be witty and street-wise and knowing in the ways that I wished to be. They tended to have fun with reckless abandon. I felt like when I was with them, my fun was often spoiled by the fact that I couldn't stop thinking of potential consequences. They never seemed sad or down or worried. It seemed as if nothing really hurt them, that they were afraid of nothing, and that they were content with life if they had friends with which to smoke, drop acid, and say witty things. I was decidedly a third-wheel and an outsider with them, and not one that they really liked, and it made me want to fit in with them all the more. It seemed to me as though they were the very epitome of cool.
I smoked with them only a few times, and didn't start smoking until almost ten years later. However, I do think that the ways I idealized them did effect my decision to smoke when I eventually did.
I smoked Camel Lights when I started smoking, partly because of the buy one, get one offers. And partly because that's what everyone my age seemed to see as the default cigarette. Later, I bummed a cigarette off of my boss, despite her warning that it was a menthol and I wouldn't like it. I liked it a great deal off the bat, and so I started buying Marlboro menthols. Later, I went back to Camels, but bought menthols. Later still, I lost my job and couldn't afford expensive cigarettes and gradually switched to Basic menthols, and now to Liggett Select menthols 100s because they are extremely cheap. (I get them for about two dollars a pack when I buy them by the carton.)
5. Growing up, what did you think about cigarettes? Were you anti-smoking as a little kid?
As a small child, I was extremely anti-cigarette, just as I was extremely anti-everything-my-parents-were-against. As a younger teenager, I thought cigarettes were super-cool, but way too super-cool for me. As an older teenager and younger twenty-something, cigarettes were something I abstained from out of a promise I'd made to someone. Now, in my mid-twenties, they're just an everyday commonplace thing.
Before leaving the house, you check to make sure that you have your ID, your car keys, your smokes and your lighter. It's just one of those things.
6. Did you ever want to smoke because a movie character did? Did movies make smoking look cool?
The only movie character I can think of who smokes is Rick from Casablanca. And yes, he seemed really cool and he looked cool smoking. But I never thought that a pack of cigarettes would take me to that world or make me into that character.
7. Did an older role model that you knew personally smoked?
Some of my older friends who I admired smoked. One of them encouraged me to smoke with him, though I never, ever did. No one I adored and really looked up to smoked, though.
8. Do you associate smoking with rebellion, fitting in or neither?
I don't really associate smoking with either anymore. I used to associate it with rebellion, but in my current circle of friends, it's far more common for people to smoke than not. I don't do it to fit in or rebel, and both seem like foreign concepts to me.
9. How did you first start smoking? Were you legally allowed to buy cigarettes when you stared?
I was 24 when I started smoking, and it was totally legal. I went through a huge, abrupt upheaval in my life. Everything I thought that was stable in my life had disappeared or changed completely from what I thought it was. The vast majority of my close friends disappeared never to be seen or heard from again. I ended up moving four times in less than a year, and I went through a major depression.
One of my close friends on his way out, who had never smoked before that I knew of, offered me a cigarette and smoked one with me, then basically said that I should never smoke again, and anyway, "Bye forever." I started buying cigarettes though I rarely smoked them and knew no one who smoked. Later, I started dating a reluctant smoker who would smoke only if those around him had cigarettes. He was then working in the job I'm working in now, and generally smoked one or maybe two cigarettes on some days. I found the taste of smoke on his breath really nice and sexy. When I bought cigarettes, he would smoke some with me, and it was a point of bonding. Later, I met his friends, and they became my friends, and nearly all of them smoke.
Posts: 1751 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I read dean's entire post. Thanks to everyone who repsonded. I wasn't trying to start a thread on whether smoking is bad. I'm actually in the "cigarettes are bad" camp, but I've never been in the situation where I would understand why someone would start smoking. You're told in DARE to just say no, and it's going to kill you and cost you a bunch of money doing it. You also get the distinct impression that you will be walking in a dark alley and a older teenager in a black leather jacket is going to offer you a cigarette and then call you chicken as you walk away. You also get the impression that all people who smoke tried it before they were legally allowed to smoke and magically became smokers.
It's also interesting to see that most people who do smoke don't do it because of ads, or movies, or and older person they know, but mostly because their friends smoke. To be fair this seems to be a chicken or egg effect: you either smoke because your friends do, or you end up befriending smokers if you are one because you meet them outside right away and have chances to talk.
Reading this, I think smoking in movies just bothers nonsmokers, and never made smokers want to smoke. Same with ads, although weed isn't advertised at all (well, duh), but people still smoke it. Two movies I can think of with cigarette that have peer pressure overtones are Grease and Now and Then.
The extra break thing is really interesting too. My mom works in a cafeteria and thought it was pretty unfair that the smokers got extra breaks
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: From your second link: "Obesity could soon overtake smoking as the leading killer of Americans." [emphasis added] That means it hasn't yet.
Just to further add to your point, I would also note that obesity should fall off a lot faster (compared to smoking) when you get out of the States and look at developing countries.
I'm pretty sure the US would actually be a "best/highest case" scenario for the ratio of obesity costs to smoking costs when compared to places like China or India.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:You also get the impression that all people who smoke tried it before they were legally allowed to smoke and magically became smokers.
As of 1998 (the latest study I've read), the age that someone started smoking was highly correlated to whether they got addicted or not, with earlier smoking -> increased addiction rates.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Memorial day weekend would have been my ten year anniversary of when I started smoking. I started when I was fourteen. Yikes! I quit this past January. I have had about three or four slip ups, but since I subsequently quit drinking in April, I've been fine.
I still have dreams that I'm smoking. But I'll tell you, I feel so much better now that I quit. I wake up without my mouth feeling like an old tavern floor. I can smell things better and taste better. It's amazing.
And it's funny, because when I was still smoking, I never really thought my sense of taste or smell was that affected. Boy was I wrong. It's also nice to be able to run across the street when the light is changing and not be heaving out of breath for the next ten minutes.
But I don't hold smoking against anyone. I think I understand better than someone who hasn't been a smoker just how great smoking can feel. I'm just done with that now.
Posts: 511 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I don't smoke, so "NO" to all of the questions. But:
quote: For me, it's largely the joint immediate excuse to leave a room to be with a smaller number of people, sharing an activity we enjoy.
This sounded like the reason to smoke that would tempt me most. I would LOVE to have an immediate excuse to leave a crowd and go be with a smaller group of people I liked. I can get very anxious in crowds.
On a side note, I think one can say that no individual movie or actor influenced them to smoke - they didn't want to smoke just because Danny Zuko did, that'd be stupid - but the whole image that the "cool people" or "rebels" smoked is definitely part of our culture, and has had an influence on the way smoking is viewed in the culture as a whole.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: From your second link: "Obesity could soon overtake smoking as the leading killer of Americans." [emphasis added] That means it hasn't yet.
Just to further add to your point, I would also note that obesity should fall off a lot faster (compared to smoking) when you get out of the States and look at developing countries.
I'm pretty sure the US would actually be a "best/highest case" scenario for the ratio of obesity costs to smoking costs when compared to places like China or India.
But in same token if you look at China or especially Japan, smoking is far more widespread then it is here I would think. They still have cigarette vending machines everywhere and I seriously doubt anyone would stop a 13 year old from buying them. There are no smoking codes for how far from a building you have to be, or you can't smoke in parks, etc. But their obesity rates are extremely low because of their diets, sumo wrestling notwithstanding .
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: ...I'm pretty sure the US would actually be a "best/highest case" scenario for the ratio of obesity costs to smoking costs when compared to places like China or India.
But in same token if you look at China or especially Japan, smoking is far more widespread then it is here I would think. They still have cigarette vending machines everywhere and I seriously doubt anyone would stop a 13 year old from buying them. There are no smoking codes for how far from a building you have to be, or you can't smoke in parks, etc. But their obesity rates are extremely low because of their diets, sumo wrestling notwithstanding . [/QB]
I think Mucus' point was that if obesity a greater relative economic burden or health issue than smoking (as Roseauthor was suggesting), then it would be so in the US -- where it isn't. That is to say, it doesn't trump cigarette smoking in the US, so it probably doesn't anywhere.
The fact that there is more smoking elsewhere would only highlight that point still further.
(That is, I don't think you guys disagree.)
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:On a side note, I think one can say that no individual movie or actor influenced them to smoke - they didn't want to smoke just because Danny Zuko did, that'd be stupid - but the whole image that the "cool people" or "rebels" smoked is definitely part of our culture, and has had an influence on the way smoking is viewed in the culture as a whole.
I see your point about cultural influence in more subtle ways. The bad part about the smoking in Grease, however was with Sandy. Makeovers in movies generally rub me the wrong way, but the "happy" ending with Sandy changing to smoke and drink like her friends was a little too much.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I have a small thought to add to the discussion about the social advantages: I don't smoke, but when people go outside to smoke, especially coworkers, I tend to go too. I go for the conversation and general social contact. I make sure I'm out of the way of the smoke though.
Smoking, in my experience, does lead to social contact, but that would probably happen anyway. Some people just like to go outside during a work break.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I read Dean's post and I thought it was really interesting.
I was raised in an anti-smoking house (both parents non-smokers, Mum a GP) and my grandmother died of, among other things, complications from smoking.
Still, when I was 15 I tried smoking. For - cool, I guess. I had friends older than me who smoked, and I wanted to fit in. They never overtly pressured me, but I still wanted to be one them. Roll my own cigarettes. Be cool. Luckily, I had mild asthma, and I never got more than a puff or two into a cigarette than I either felt tight in the chest or was sick.
So I smoked maybe 8 cigarettes from 15 to 18, when I realised that what I was doing was stupid. So I stopped. A big part of that was seeing one of my friends, a smoker friend, who always insisted she wasn't addicted and could stop anytime she wanted to.
Long story short, someone bet her to stop and she couldn't. And while I hadn't smoked much at all, I realised again how stupid the idea of taking up smoking was (especially as it mad me vomit and made it hard to breathe.)
My grandfather, who smoked more than my grandmother, died a few months ago. Part of the reason was his lifetime of smoking, the removal of his lung cancer, and the impact on his lungs, compacted with his other health problems. In the end, it was his lungs that killed him.
I can understand why people start smoking. I find it harder to understand as to why they choose to continue.
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