quote:Out of curiosity, when's the earliest you remember this happening in traditional fantasy, and how often do you see it there? It was my experience that I always WANTED to see bad guy races turn out to be good, but WarCraft III was the first time I actually saw it happen. And soon afterwards they started showing up everywhere. Beforehand I saw a few barbaric versions of good races but not a whole lot of genuinely "evil races" (orcs, trolls, etc) turn out to be good.
Well, not "traditional fantasy" but--Klingon anyone?
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's kinda my point - I know the general trope has been out for a while, but Blizzard DID do it with several iconic races that hadn't been done before, and I think that was what set of some of the more recent orcsplosions of noble savages in fantasy all over the place. And I think that's significant because, although sci-fi's been generally accepted as a "smart" kind of fiction that explores various philosophical stuff, even if it does so in a macroscopic "Planet Full of People with X" extrapolation, fantasy's seen more as, well, escapist fantasy.
Now, shoving warrior poet orcs into your work does automatically make your work "smart," but I do think it makes it better than having entire races of randomly evil people.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Out of curiosity, when's the earliest you remember this happening in traditional fantasy, and how often do you see it there?
Well, to be honest, Rodney was the first noble Orc I ever saw. So that means I originated the concept of the noble Orc.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: While I still have absolutely NO idea what plot they are going to go with, at least it may actually be possible for the movie to be fun, dare I say awesome? [/QB]
I remember commenting to my husband (after watching one of the cinematic trailers for one of the early WoW expansions) that part of me would love to see a movie made. I've always loved the look of the cinematics and, given the depth of lore, there's certainly enough story from which to make a movie. I know there's the distinct possibility that it would go horribly, horribly wrong (like the other video game movies), but I'd probably want to see it anyway.
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
They've made it clear it won't be all CGI like the cinematics, which disappointments me. Most CGI tries too hard to look realistic and fails, and WoW cinematics have a nice surreal look to them that I think is perfect for fantasy.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Blizzard DID do it with several iconic races that hadn't been done before...
The noble orc was explored pretty thoroughly in pen-and-paper RPGs well before Warcraft III. Check out Orkworld, by John Wick, some time.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: As long as the movie is better than Dungeon Siege In the Name of the King, I will watch it.
The movie was so bad it was comical. A total train wreck. I saw the previews with Jason Statham and John Rhys-Davis and thought that the movie may be a decent action movie. Then I realized it also had Matthew Lillard and Ray Liotta in it. I can't think of one movie that wasn't ruined by having Ray Liotta in it. Ok, MAYBE Dominic and Eugene, and perhaps Field of Dreams.....But they came close.
Wasn't Ray Liotta in Goodfellas? Was that movie ruined too?
---
Also, the Orcs in Warcraft are not all noble savages. From how I understand it Thrall is different BECAUSE he was raised amongst humans. Virtually all the other orcs respect him for his intelligence but only because he also has battle prowess. His hold over the horde is quite tenuous as there are other more savage orcs who want to drive the humans to extinction, and the humans by and large feel the same way about the orcs.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
That doesn't really preclude them from being "noble savages." Their hatred of humans stems from humans defeating them over and over in war, then "uniting" with them only to give them a small parcel of lifeless desert to live on. The point was that humans and orcs alike had too much baggage to treat each other fairly.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Horde side isn't exactly the cutting edge of modern fantasy... but it's got far more interesting aspects to explore than the Alliance side. There's virtually nothing interesting there other than perhaps the night elves and the gnomish-steampunk elements.
The uneasy interplay between the tauren (not even a little bit evil), the orcs (many are evil, but many are more klingon-noble), the trolls (mostly all evil except for a single tribe), and the undead (even the "good" ones are still pretty nasty)... is far more interesting than another rehash of humans, elves, gnomes (hobbits) and dwarves fighting the "good fight".
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: ... In the Name of the King was directed by Uwe Boll. What did you expect?
Or were you unaware of who Uwe Boll was?
You know if you keep saying his name he will appear and make a movie about something you are a fan of. Be careful.
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: One game I think actually could provide a very solid backbone for a movie: Mass Effect.
It's very story- and character-oriented. And it has smart, but mainstream-friendly scifi elements, which would be easy to translate to screen.
The fundamental problem with most game-to-movie translations is that games by their nature typically aren't story-driven, or character-driven.
*pssst, there are other games out there then Peggle and Tetris y'know*
Yes, I know. I've been playing games since 1980. Atari, Vic-20, C64, Amiga, PC.
But only very few ames are story- and character-driven. And those that are, like Mass Effect, are not currently being considered as movies.
They intended to make Halo into a movie. Halo has a skeleton of a story, but it has no main character. Master Chief is only an empty shell that the player can inhabit, he is not a character.
Bioshock is going get made. It doesn't have a main character, and it doesn't really have a story, just a bare skeleton of a sort-of-a-story. it has only the imaginary world, which is visually interesting, but world is only a world. They have to create the actual story and characters from a scratch.
Another problem with games is that they are often highly derivative of movies. Halo for example is taking so many visual and story elements from well known movies, that it becomes a problem when it's turned into a movie. It's ok for a game to copy a movie, but it's less ok for a movie to copy another movie.
I just heard that the the director of the first Saw wants to turn Dead Space into a movie (he already directed trailers for that). It's an excellent game, but it's essentially a huge Alien/Aliens-ripoff. It's cool to play a game where you get to live moments borrowed from those movies, but it's much less cool to experience it in a movie form.
Games are interactive. They are based on gameplay. Those things count more than story or character. There is a reason why main characters in games are almost without exception walking cliches: The more generic your lead is, the easier it is for gamers to imagine themselves in his place. But this becomes a big problem when you turn the game into a movie: You basically have to throw away the script of the game, and rewrite an entirely new story with entirely new characters, if you want to come up with something good.
But then you have millions of gamers bitching about every change you make. "You can't show Master Chief's face!". But the problem is, Master Chief is a massive bore and a walking tough guy cliche, unless you show his face and completely re-write his character into something better.
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: The Horde side isn't exactly the cutting edge of modern fantasy... but it's got far more interesting aspects to explore than the Alliance side. There's virtually nothing interesting there other than perhaps the night elves and the gnomish-steampunk elements.
It isn't the most cutting edge material out there, but the Scarlet Crusade storyline has a lot of inherent personal and family conflict built into it. Especially during the early years before they really went off the deep end, which would fit the timeline of the movie they're talking about.
In the hands of a good director, I think it could definitely provide enough material for a good movie.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I like the Forsaken's struggle for free will under the leadership of Lady Sylvanas. I think that would make an interesting movie. Lots of betrayal and such. Not your typical hero.
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: One game I think actually could provide a very solid backbone for a movie: Mass Effect.
It's very story- and character-oriented. And it has smart, but mainstream-friendly scifi elements, which would be easy to translate to screen.
The fundamental problem with most game-to-movie translations is that games by their nature typically aren't story-driven, or character-driven.
*pssst, there are other games out there then Peggle and Tetris y'know*
Yes, I know. I've been playing games since 1980. Atari, Vic-20, C64, Amiga, PC.
But only very few ames are story- and character-driven. And those that are, like Mass Effect, are not currently being considered as movies.
They intended to make Halo into a movie. Halo has a skeleton of a story, but it has no main character. Master Chief is only an empty shell that the player can inhabit, he is not a character.
Bioshock is going get made. It doesn't have a main character, and it doesn't really have a story, just a bare skeleton of a sort-of-a-story. it has only the imaginary world, which is visually interesting, but world is only a world. They have to create the actual story and characters from a scratch.
Another problem with games is that they are often highly derivative of movies. Halo for example is taking so many visual and story elements from well known movies, that it becomes a problem when it's turned into a movie. It's ok for a game to copy a movie, but it's less ok for a movie to copy another movie.
I just heard that the the director of the first Saw wants to turn Dead Space into a movie (he already directed trailers for that). It's an excellent game, but it's essentially a huge Alien/Aliens-ripoff. It's cool to play a game where you get to live moments borrowed from those movies, but it's much less cool to experience it in a movie form.
Games are interactive. They are based on gameplay. Those things count more than story or character. There is a reason why main characters in games are almost without exception walking cliches: The more generic your lead is, the easier it is for gamers to imagine themselves in his place. But this becomes a big problem when you turn the game into a movie: You basically have to throw away the script of the game, and rewrite an entirely new story with entirely new characters, if you want to come up with something good.
But then you have millions of gamers bitching about every change you make. "You can't show Master Chief's face!". But the problem is, Master Chief is a massive bore and a walking tough guy cliche, unless you show his face and completely re-write his character into something better.
Tropes Are Not Cliche's
Have you read the backstory books for Halo?
-The Fall of Reach -The Flood -First Strike -Ghosts of Onyx -Contact Harvest -The Cole Protocol ? These are very great books that do alot more to describe the characters and give them depth, also it gives a pretty detailed description of what the Master Chief looks like, only idiots will bitch about showing his face. Hes red headed, freckled and has pale skin, probably more but i don't remember.
Also its not so much that the character HAS to be a cliche have you ever played half Life 2? I wouldn't put Gordon Freemon has a cliche, lots of tropes no cliches.
Also there is nothing new under the sun, everything that can be thought of has been done before, Starcraft basically has Tyrranids, the Eldar, and the Imperium from Warhammer 40k as the Zerg, the Protoss and the terrans respectively, people STILL play it and would see a movie.
Bioshock is also an objectivist philosphyfest. But I never played.
But anyways the Halo franchise has a great story, its gameplay is actually quite average and boilerplate but its the STORY is why I played it, wanting to know what happens next is why I borrowed a 360 and rented it opening weekend to Finish The Fight, it has a superb story taken as a whole.
Also i think there's an entire genre your missing here, JRPG's they are massively story and character driven almost to a fault. Half Life 2 has great characters and a interesting story, Portal has a story you have to discover in game, Starcraft, Warcraft, Company of Heroes, Dawn of war also have story and driven characters.
NEVERWINTER NIGHTS! EVE-Online if you define characters as "players" and look at it from the perspective of the massive drama around the big 0.0 empire building wars.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Tropes Are Not Cliche's
Have you read the backstory books for Halo?
-The Fall of Reach -The Flood -First Strike -Ghosts of Onyx -Contact Harvest -The Cole Protocol ? These are very great books that do alot more to describe the characters and give them depth, also it gives a pretty detailed description of what the Master Chief looks like, only idiots will bitch about showing his face. Hes red headed, freckled and has pale skin, probably more but i don't remember.
Also its not so much that the character HAS to be a cliche have you ever played half Life 2? I wouldn't put Gordon Freemon has a cliche, lots of tropes no cliches.
Also there is nothing new under the sun, everything that can be thought of has been done before, Starcraft basically has Tyrranids, the Eldar, and the Imperium from Warhammer 40k as the Zerg, the Protoss and the terrans respectively, people STILL play it and would see a movie.
Bioshock is also an objectivist philosphyfest. But I never played.
But anyways the Halo franchise has a great story, its gameplay is actually quite average and boilerplate but its the STORY is why I played it, wanting to know what happens next is why I borrowed a 360 and rented it opening weekend to Finish The Fight, it has a superb story taken as a whole.
Also i think there's an entire genre your missing here, JRPG's they are massively story and character driven almost to a fault. Half Life 2 has great characters and a interesting story, Portal has a story you have to discover in game, Starcraft, Warcraft, Company of Heroes, Dawn of war also have story and driven characters.
NEVERWINTER NIGHTS! EVE-Online if you define characters as "players" and look at it from the perspective of the massive drama around the big 0.0 empire building wars.
FEAR? Heck Halo: Wars another RTS
Story and Characters!
I haven't read the Halo books, but that's a different thing. We're talking about book adaptations then.
I did play Neverwinter Nights, but found it too boring and quit it midway through. I remember the story being very generic fantasy stuff, but it was really the repetitive combat and looting that killed it for me.
I like RPG's. Over the last couple of years I've played Oblivion. Witcher, Stalker, Fallout 3. Witcher had easily the best story and characters, but then again, it was based on a book. The writing in others failed to impress me, but I thought the games all ranged from very good to great.
Half Life 2 was a very good game, but the story was weak and almost completely non-existent. It's basically a series of chases and shootouts. Go from point A to point B to collect and item. Then go from point B to point C to meet a person. Then got from point C to point D to collect another item. Kill everything you see on the way. Repeat and repeat. That's not story, that's level design. And Gordon Freeman as a main character? He has no personality in the game at all. We only know what he looks like. We know nothing else about him. The only characterization we get is that he has a beard and glasses. That's not enough. The supporting characters were all extremely one-dimensional types as well.
Portal was a great game and had a very funny villain with probably best dialogue -or monologue, to be precise - I've ever heard in a game. But there wasn't really any story, and there wasn't any other characters besides the villain. The only other character is the protagonist, who is... Well, a woman. That's all we know about her. I don't think that's enough for a movie.
EVE doesn't have story or characters, unless we pretend that it has, like you seemed to suggest. It's also worth emphasizing that a string of events is not a story. If you have people fighting, either with spaceships or with swords, that's not a story. Not even when you have a series of fights. Story needs more than that.
Unfortunately I haven't played the rest. But considering the examples you are giving me, it just seems we have different standards to what is a good story, or good characters. A series of collect / kill / meet / activate quests is good enough of a story for a game, but it's not good enough for a movie. Stereotypes as characters are fine for a game, but less fine for a movie.
I could name a dozen books by Orson Scott Card, which have better stories and characters than any of the games you mentioned. And Card is only one author, there are many, many equally good out there.
Novels tend to be story- and character-driven. Games, not so much.
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: I've never played WOW. What's the concept behind the world/story?
There is a massive amount of lore contained int he WoW universe, I will sum it up for you as best I can.
There are these beings named "Titans." Essentially they are a group of Gods that travel through space and create planets and life throughout the universe.
One planet that was created was named Azeroth, where WoW takes place. Eventually one of the titans, Sargeras, decided that the Titans had it all wrong and wants to destroy everything they have created. He rebels from the other Titans and recruits races from different planets to form the "Burning Legion." The Legion travels from world to world snuffing out all life. Most of them have a demon like appearance and are called demons by those they come into contact with.
On Azeroth they are able to defeat the Burning Legion, becoming the first planet to do so. Sargeras finds a warrior race called "Orcs", on another planet called Draenor, and corrupts them over time. One of them, a very powerful warlock, manages to open a portal to Azeroth with the help of Sargeras. The orcs pour through the portal and begin to destroy everything in their wake. Eventually they are beaten and taken as slaves to be used by the humans for sport.
The warlock that opened the portal is granted great power for his work but eventually is betrayed and killed by Sargeras and the other demon races of the Legion. His spirit was trapped in a place called Icecrown.
Eventually an orc by the name of Thrall escapes the humans and is warned by a prophet to travel to the western continent of the world, as the eastern continent will soon be destroyed. He follows the advice, and soon allies himself with races such as the Trolls and Taurens.
Back on the eastern continent, the legion creates something called "The Scourge," an army of undead. The humans have great trouble fighting the undead. Each one of the alliance soldiers that falls in battle rises as part of the undead army.
Eventually the scourge is stopped by Prince Arthas. He finds out that a demon lord by the name of Mal'Ganis is behind the scourge and vows to chase him to the ends of the earth. Over time Arthas becomes more and more obsessed with revenge, and begins to perform horrid acts of violence, such as killing an entire city of people infected by the scourge plague before they had turned.
The Legion is once again eventually stopped by the Alliance (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes) and the Horde (Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, and Forsaken)
Meanwhile, Arthas was up in the northern continent, appropriately named "Northrend" searching for the remains of the orc warlock. The warlock was manipulated by the Legion into creating the Scourge. The warlock was able to break the control over him, but was rapidly losing power and needed Arthas to help. Upon discovering the Frozen Throne, Arthas put on the armor that contained the spirit of the warlock, and was posessed, thus becoming the Lich King.
Four years pass, which we do not know a whole lot about, then WoW begins. Right now in the game the Alliance and Horde are in Northrend, readying themselves for an all out battle against the Lich King.
This is not even a drop in the bucket lore wise, I just threw a few of the most important parts in. Hope this helps!
I doesn't sound as if there would be any kind of high-concept premise to the whole thing.
LOTR and HP had very appealing high concepts. Even Narnia had one, to a degree, and it was riding on the success of the other two.
Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think LOTR was "high concept" by the time the movie was released. It was originally, but by now it is just a very well executed series of archetypes.
The world of warcraft overall is a whole jumble of complex stories because it's a big complex world. But individual stories (which is what a movie would focus on) had individual medium-high concepts. The main one, which the movie will certainly focus on, is essentially looking at what the aftermath of LOTR would be: what happens to all the orcs when the evil mastermind that was manipulating them is suddenly gone and their kingdom is conquered? What is the political and cultural fallout? I think that's a perfectly good premise for a movie.
Later movies might be able to focus on the undead, which go a few steps beyond, dealing with issues of free will, and what it's like to be forsaken by your friends, loved ones, and even God itself. ("God" in WoW is a sort of amorphous semi-sentient "Light," sort of like the Force. Forsaken priests can still manipulate it but are working against it instead of with it). Oddly enough, the undead are the only race in WoW I can play without ever feeling like I'm the "bad guy." Most races start you out killing animals for sport and "enemies" for reasons that mostly boil down to prejudice, but the undead are fighting for their very existence against other undead who are either mindless or evil, and humans who have declared them monsters to be eradicated at all costs.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I don't think LOTR was "high concept" by the time the movie was released. It was originally, but by now it is just a very well executed series of archetypes.
The world of warcraft overall is a whole jumble of complex stories because it's a big complex world. But individual stories (which is what a movie would focus on) had individual medium-high concepts. The main one, which the movie will certainly focus on, is essentially looking at what the aftermath of LOTR would be: what happens to all the orcs when the evil mastermind that was manipulating them is suddenly gone and their kingdom is conquered? What is the political and cultural fallout? I think that's a perfectly good premise for a movie.
Later movies might be able to focus on the undead, which go a few steps beyond, dealing with issues of free will, and what it's like to be forsaken by your friends, loved ones, and even God itself. ("God" in WoW is a sort of amorphous semi-sentient "Light," sort of like the Force. Forsaken priests can still manipulate it but are working against it instead of with it). Oddly enough, the undead are the only race in WoW I can play without ever feeling like I'm the "bad guy." Most races start you out killing animals for sport and "enemies" for reasons that mostly boil down to prejudice, but the undead are fighting for their very existence against other undead who are either mindless or evil, and humans who have declared them monsters to be eradicated at all costs.
LOTR actually has an extremely good high concept premise:
An evil warlord Sauron is conquering the world. He is hunting for a magic ring he once made, and if he finds it, he will become so powerful that evil will rule forever. The only way to destroy Sauron and to save the world, is to destroy the magic ring... But the trick is, the ring can be only destroyed in volcano at the heart of Sauron's lands. A small team of heroes is assembled to travel with the ring for hundreds of miles, to sneak unseen behind heavily guarded enemy lines, to the very heart of evil, and to finally destroy the ring. And on the every step they take, the power of the ring corrupts and tempts them, turning them into evil...
It's a brilliant thing, conceptually. It combines external and internal struggle, overwhelming odds against our heroes, the stakes are as high as they can ever get, and the premise makes sure that the drama keeps on escalating as the story progresses: The closer the heroes get to their goal, the closer they are to their enemy, the stronger his forces will be, and the greater the corruptive power of the ring will be.
Sure, it's somewhat complex. An ideal movie high concept is something you can state in one sentence, and you can't do that properly with LOTR. But considering how many exciting elements that premise contains, and how much potential it has for drama, it's really a great concept for a story.
Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Oddly enough, the undead are the only race in WoW I can play without ever feeling like I'm the "bad guy." Most races start you out killing animals for sport and "enemies" for reasons that mostly boil down to prejudice, but the undead are fighting for their very existence against other undead who are either mindless or evil, and humans who have declared them monsters to be eradicated at all costs.
posted
The night elf starting zone isn't that bad. Yeah, you're killing animals a lot of the time, but they're generally plagued or corrupted somehow.
The defias arc in the human lands, on the other hand, aren't all that great. Yeah, they're mostly bandits, but they wouldn't exist if they hadn't been betrayed by the country after doing most of the work rebuilding it.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
BTW, when I talk about premise or high-concept, it mean it in the way Hollywood understands it. To put it simply:
What is the conflict? What is the quest? What is the distinctive quality that sets this story apart from other stories?
For example Ender's Game is about humans fighting alien invaders. Which promises some action, but sounds pretty generic... Then again, that's not really what the story is about.
Ender's Game is really about a space school of exceptionally gifted kids, who are trained from early age to fight in an interstellar war against aliens.
...Which sounds cool, distinctive, unique. It promises a lot of conflict, drama and excitement.
So I'm still rather confused about whether WOW even has any kind of high concept, or actual story premise. Or whether any of the individual stories inside the WOW universe have one. Of course, the screenwriters might come up with a really good new one.
But it's Raimi, and he has a good track record in my eyes, so I'll look forward to this.
Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Geraine made the mistake of trying to sum up the entire history instead of delivering the key points. The original, "obvious" concept of WarCraft was: "humans and orcs are being manipulated against each other by a mysterious evil force."
By the time we got to WarCraft III, that had been expanded to "A race demons are wandering the universe, consuming planet after planet. They previously failed to consume Azeroth, and so began a 10,000 year long conspiracy to manipulate the entire planet into a massive world war that would leave all potential defenders devastated and too bitter to join forces against an external threat."
It also gained a secondary concept, which I already explained but will repeat for ease of reference: "what happens to all the "evil horde" when the evil lord that was controlling them is suddenly gone and their kingdom is conquered? What is the political and cultural fallout?"
The few interviews we have suggest that the third concept is the one the first movie will focus on. Again, I think it's a perfectly legimate idea.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Geraine made the mistake of trying to sum up the entire history instead of delivering the key points. The original, "obvious" concept of WarCraft was: "humans and orcs are being manipulated against each other by a mysterious evil force."
Hey, I really like this premise!
It's actually a very intriguing high concept. And it's different from all the other fantasy movies we've seen.
The concept already brings up a story in front of my eyes, which is a sign of a good concept:
Humans and orcs start a war against each other. The human hero hates orcs and fights against them with other humans, but the odds are overwhelming.
Then the hero finds out that someone is controlling the events, turning humans and orcs against each other. And he has to stop that someone, before orcs wipe out humanity entirely.
And on his journey the hero and his group of human heroes have to team up with a group of orcs, bringing up all the prejudices and tension that the two factions have had against each other for ages. But now they have to learn to work as a team. And together they try to unravel the mystery, find the real villains, and save both the human and orc worlds in the process.
It's a cool story. It has stakes, drama, action, mystery, message, twists and turns.
I hope they go with that one - I don't mean my take on it, but the original premise.
I don't like the 3rd one that much, because it establishes a world situation, but no quest, or actual clear conflict.
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: The original, "obvious" concept of WarCraft was: "humans and orcs are being manipulated against each other by a mysterious evil force."
That is perhaps a little generous. The original concept was really not much more than "evil orcs invade the generic fantasy kingdom".
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
That concept by the way reminds of some fantasy novel I distantly remember hearing about. It's about two worlds that are connected by a gateway, portal, bridge, or something like that, and the two worlds are in constant war. The hero and his world think that the other world, which they know little about, is evil. But then he finds out that this is no the case. It's the gateway / portal / bridge that is evil and it is manipulating both sides to keep the war going on forever.
Anyone have any idea what that novel might be? I might remember all the details wrong, but that's the synopsis I remember. I always thought it was an intriguing concept.
Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Geraine made the mistake of trying to sum up the entire history instead of delivering the key points. The original, "obvious" concept of WarCraft was: "humans and orcs are being manipulated against each other by a mysterious evil force."
By the time we got to WarCraft III, that had been expanded to "A race demons are wandering the universe, consuming planet after planet. They previously failed to consume Azeroth, and so began a 10,000 year long conspiracy to manipulate the entire planet into a massive world war that would leave all potential defenders devastated and too bitter to join forces against an external threat."
It also gained a secondary concept, which I already explained but will repeat for ease of reference: "what happens to all the "evil horde" when the evil lord that was controlling them is suddenly gone and their kingdom is conquered? What is the political and cultural fallout?"
The few interviews we have suggest that the third concept is the one the first movie will focus on. Again, I think it's a perfectly legimate idea.
Well put. You explained what I was trying to in a fraction of the time.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: That concept by the way reminds of some fantasy novel I distantly remember hearing about. It's about two worlds that are connected by a gateway, portal, bridge, or something like that, and the two worlds are in constant war. The hero and his world think that the other world, which they know little about, is evil. But then he finds out that this is no the case. It's the gateway / portal / bridge that is evil and it is manipulating both sides to keep the war going on forever.
Anyone have any idea what that novel might be? I might remember all the details wrong, but that's the synopsis I remember. I always thought it was an intriguing concept.]
Sounds like Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar Saga: Magician, Silverthorn, and A Darkness at Sethanon. I loved those as a teenager.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:That is perhaps a little generous. The original concept was really not much more than "evil orcs invade the generic fantasy kingdom".
I think the original one still contained hints that there was manipulation going on. Or even if it didn't, the pieces were all there for WarCraft II to expand upon it. (If they hadn't had the gist of the backstory in mind, I don't think there would have been a reason to include Medivh in the first game, which they did).
quote:I hope they go with that one.
I don't like the 3rd one that much, because it establishes a world situation, but no quest, or actual clear conflict.
There is a very good book called "The Last Guardian" (By Jeff Grubb) which I really wish they'd base the movie on. It's set during the first war, but it is from the perspective a young wizard, apprenticed to a powerful mage who eventually turns out to be the one responsible for the conflict. The book contains a good dose of action/adventure, magical philosophy, racial conflict, and a specific quest (figuring out where the orcs are coming from and stopping the man responsible). It has a satisfying ending without deviating from the actual "sad ending" the original game had. (The orcs official won the first war, the humans were completely devastated and it was another 4 years before there was an actual happy ending for the world as a whole, at least temporarily). I think it's the perfect intro to the world if you are interested.
Unfortunately, they've already stated the movie will be slated after the orcs and humans were already offically "allied", and had collectively defeated the Burning Legion. Now without a common enemy they're struggling to retain peace but it's gradually breaking down.
quote:The rumored storyline is going to be from the point of view of a human character, as he gets swept into racial tensions between the two sides and ultimatly reaches a climax with a massive battle. The Horde are not going to be presented as villians, but instead just another side in the conflict. Metzen said in an old interview that his heart belongs to the Horde, so even if the Alliance is getting the focus the Horde will still get a lot of love and not just be treated as fodder.
That could be a decent movie but I'd rather they just start at the beginning.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: The original, "obvious" concept of WarCraft was: "humans and orcs are being manipulated against each other by a mysterious evil force."
That is perhaps a little generous. The original concept was really not much more than "evil orcs invade the generic fantasy kingdom".
True story, I think it was only after Warcraft 2 did so well, including it's expansion The Dark Portal" that Warcraft III was free to explore more deeply all the different races. Also the canceled game, Warcraft Adventures hinted at the more dynamic plots Blizzard was hoping to use.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:That is perhaps a little generous. The original concept was really not much more than "evil orcs invade the generic fantasy kingdom".
I think the original one still contained hints that there was manipulation going on. Or even if it didn't, the pieces were all there for WarCraft II to expand upon it. (If they hadn't had the gist of the backstory in mind, I don't think there would have been a reason to include Medivh in the first game, which they did).
quote:I hope they go with that one.
I don't like the 3rd one that much, because it establishes a world situation, but no quest, or actual clear conflict.
There is a very good book called "The Last Guardian" (By Jeff Grubb) which I really wish they'd base the movie on. It's set during the first war, but it is from the perspective a young wizard, apprenticed to a powerful mage who eventually turns out to be the one responsible for the conflict. The book contains a good dose of action/adventure, magical philosophy, racial conflict, and a specific quest (figuring out where the orcs are coming from and stopping the man responsible). It has a satisfying ending without deviating from the actual "sad ending" the original game had. (The orcs official won the first war, the humans were completely devastated and it was another 4 years before there was an actual happy ending for the world as a whole, at least temporarily). I think it's the perfect intro to the world if you are interested.
Unfortunately, they've already stated the movie will be slated after the orcs and humans were already offically "allied", and had collectively defeated the Burning Legion. Now without a common enemy they're struggling to retain peace but it's gradually breaking down.
quote:The rumored storyline is going to be from the point of view of a human character, as he gets swept into racial tensions between the two sides and ultimatly reaches a climax with a massive battle. The Horde are not going to be presented as villians, but instead just another side in the conflict. Metzen said in an old interview that his heart belongs to the Horde, so even if the Alliance is getting the focus the Horde will still get a lot of love and not just be treated as fodder.
That could be a decent movie but I'd rather they just start at the beginning.
Yeah, it doesn't sound particularly intriguing. It sounds as if they are starting the story after all the most exciting stuff has happened.
Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: That concept by the way reminds of some fantasy novel I distantly remember hearing about. It's about two worlds that are connected by a gateway, portal, bridge, or something like that, and the two worlds are in constant war. The hero and his world think that the other world, which they know little about, is evil. But then he finds out that this is no the case. It's the gateway / portal / bridge that is evil and it is manipulating both sides to keep the war going on forever.
Anyone have any idea what that novel might be? I might remember all the details wrong, but that's the synopsis I remember. I always thought it was an intriguing concept.]
Sounds like Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar Saga: Magician, Silverthorn, and A Darkness at Sethanon. I loved those as a teenager.
I checked Amazon, and that must be it! Thanks! I have to order those... Do you think they stand up even as an adult reader? Some youth section books I find very enjoyable, as they are really more for all ages. Some are clearly dumbed down, and less enjoyable for me as an adult.
Edit: Hmm... At Amazon I initially thought that they were geared more towards teens, but after reading more I guess that's not the case.
Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tauren starting zone: "Nature is a precious thing that we must protect, by killing them frequently in very specific numbers. Such as six."
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I had a hard time buying the Night Elf and Tauren starting zones. "It's for the environment." Yeah. I believe you. The Environment needs us to kill all the baby cats... then kill all the adult cats, then kill all the striders, then kill some other thing. Okay, now go kill a bunch of these plagued beasts so that we can harvest an antidote to cure the rest. Oops, the cure didn't work! Oh well, might as well kill the rest now.
One of Wow's biggest flaws is that the classic game (i.e. where you have to spend the first 58 levels of your existence) have no real central conflict to drive it forward. The only two starting areas that really grabbed me and pulled me into the story are the Draenei and the Undead, and both of those flounder as soon as you leave the original areas. I'm hoping in the next expansion they introduce some more lower level content feels more story-driven.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Raymond Arnold: I completely agree with your starting zone asessment. But at the same time Blizzard didn't have much experience in the mmorpg genre. I think with The Frozen Throne, their quest designing prowess is much improved.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh definitely, I'm just hoping they'll apply some of that newfound knowledge to create a new low level area. It doesn't have to be nearly as diverse as the original 1-60 path, but relatively small continent with a cohesive story designed to bring people up to 60 (or even 80) very quickly would be really cool.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
The plot of WarCraft I would be boring. But as I mentioned, The Last Guardian (the story of WarCraft I from Khadgar and to some extent Garona's point of view) is not boring at all.
Also note that the humans lose in WarCraft I.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: That concept by the way reminds of some fantasy novel I distantly remember hearing about. It's about two worlds that are connected by a gateway, portal, bridge, or something like that, and the two worlds are in constant war. The hero and his world think that the other world, which they know little about, is evil. But then he finds out that this is no the case. It's the gateway / portal / bridge that is evil and it is manipulating both sides to keep the war going on forever.
Anyone have any idea what that novel might be? I might remember all the details wrong, but that's the synopsis I remember. I always thought it was an intriguing concept.
Raymond Feist, the Riftwar Saga, more than likely.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: Meh, the Last Guardian was ok, but not nearly as good as you're making it out to be.
Really? Huh. I'm a sucker for almost anything by Jeff Grubb. He manages to take any random world handed to him by corporate moneyhogs and create a story that I find genuinely fascinating.
Also worth noting, as far as WarCraft I goes, that while Blackhand and Co were sitting around shouting "kill the humans! Grr! We are evil!" there was a whole political intrigue thing going on in the Horde side between Durotan, Ogrim Doomhammer and Gul'Dan. I didn't actually think the Lord of the Clans book was that amazing but I think the ideas had potential to be better developed. All around, there's plenty of story to make WarCraft I worth turning into a movie.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: That concept by the way reminds of some fantasy novel I distantly remember hearing about. It's about two worlds that are connected by a gateway, portal, bridge, or something like that, and the two worlds are in constant war. The hero and his world think that the other world, which they know little about, is evil. But then he finds out that this is no the case. It's the gateway / portal / bridge that is evil and it is manipulating both sides to keep the war going on forever.
Anyone have any idea what that novel might be? I might remember all the details wrong, but that's the synopsis I remember. I always thought it was an intriguing concept.]
Sounds like Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar Saga: Magician, Silverthorn, and A Darkness at Sethanon. I loved those as a teenager.
I checked Amazon, and that must be it! Thanks! I have to order those... Do you think they stand up even as an adult reader? Some youth section books I find very enjoyable, as they are really more for all ages. Some are clearly dumbed down, and less enjoyable for me as an adult.
Edit: Hmm... At Amazon I initially thought that they were geared more towards teens, but after reading more I guess that's not the case.
I actually haven't re-read them since I was a teenager. I almost never re-read books -- there are always so many new ones to read! But no, I don't think they were specifically aimed at young readers.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why don't they make a Star Wars movie? Those games seem to be pretty story driven, and I hear there are a couple books too!
Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Raymond, the Undead are the only ones that *don't* make you feel like you're evil? Huh.
I have the exact opposite experience. I had no problem with the Tauren killing the animals - mainly because they're a hunter-driven society (it may have helped that I was a leatherworker and skinned them all, too). I also didn't have any problem with the Orcs doing so, because they're a warlike "you must prove your worth" society. Even the trolls had reasons for killing the animals - scorpions plaguing the hillside, etc.
But the Undead quests were about finding new and interesting ways to torture and kill humans in mass numbers and to despoil the land. I never understood how the Taurens and the Undead ever had even the barest of cooperation.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
To clarify, there are plenty of undead quests that DO make me feel evil. Each faction (including humans) have quests that violate my own personal moral code. But because of the way the newbie zone is set up, the undead are the only race where you could theoretically go from the beginning to the end of the game without feeling morally questionable.
I realize that from the perspective of the orcs, butchering 10 pigs isn't that big a deal. But by that logic, neither is developing a plague to destroy humanity that big a deal from the perspective of the undead. I'm talking about my own moral code, not that of the people I'm playing. But more to the point, the problem with the Tauren and Orc "hunting" quests is that "proving" your skill by slaughtering a 30 creatures that are all weaker than you doesn't make me feel proud of myself at all. I wish the game as a whole had more quests vs single large creatures that you were expected to kill yourself, that required some actual skill to accomplish.
That said, I definitely feel better about it when I'm skinning them, so at least I'm not leaving a trail of bodies in my wake.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Raymond, the Undead are the only ones that *don't* make you feel like you're evil? Huh.
I have the exact opposite experience. I had no problem with the Tauren killing the animals - mainly because they're a hunter-driven society (it may have helped that I was a leatherworker and skinned them all, too). I also didn't have any problem with the Orcs doing so, because they're a warlike "you must prove your worth" society. Even the trolls had reasons for killing the animals - scorpions plaguing the hillside, etc.
But the Undead quests were about finding new and interesting ways to torture and kill humans in mass numbers and to despoil the land. I never understood how the Taurens and the Undead ever had even the barest of cooperation.
It's best to think of the Horde not as a single polity but as two seperate nations fighting a common enemy. You have the Kalimdor Horde Orcs, tauren and Trolls and the Lodereron Horde which is the Forsaken and the Blood Elves.
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
But no, I don't think they were specifically aimed at young readers.
