quote:Originally posted by steven: You're not the mod, JB, get it? You're not the mod. I'll listen to you on your board. I don't have a problem with what got said there.
Oh, really? Then what was this post all about?
quote:Why don't you head on over to www.galacticcactus.com and see what the mormons were saying about me when they thought I wasn't around? I'm deeply impressed by their sense of honor.
Sounds a lot like a chip on your shoulder to me.
By the way, you don't need to keep reminding me that I'm not a moderator. I don't need to be a moderator to ask you to be nice and stop attacking my church.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I don't have a problem with you, JB. I really don't have any issues with Mormonism, per se. I still don't understand Utah culture yet, but that's not Mormonism.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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There's no reason to start using the Mormon "H" word now is there?
Let's all get back to discussing raves, police brutallity, drugs and rock n' roll and mormon law enforcement officials.
As for Law Enforcement Officials and Mormons in Utah. I do have a sister-in-law whose Uncle (I know it's distant) is the Sherrif over the county I live in. He IS Mormon but about 20% of his force is and the rest are not, which is fine. The county is approximately 50% Mormon which is low but that is due to there being 3 military bases/installations in the county and the transitionary status of the people comming and going through there.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by steven: when did I lie the first time, m_p_h?
When you quoted Bob_Scopatz saying something like "if Price is right" as "Price is right", making it look like Bob agreed with Price, while it was painfully obvious to anybody who read Bob's post that he strongly disagreed with him.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: I think it's frightening that you would be ok with your daughter or son having guns pointed at them. You are not a parent, are you?
gnixing and I are married and we have 2 children.
I wont speak for him, but I will give you my view on this. I would rather not have anyone point a gun at my child. But if they are doing things that are against the law then perhaps it could be the wake up call they need to get their life back on track.
gnixing didn't say that he would be ok with a gun being pointed at his child's head he just said he would want SWAT there.
I also think that if they are breaking the law we need to figure that they are going to have a gun pointed at them at some point.
I hope that we are able to teach our children so that this wont be something that will happen.
Posts: 747 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Well I don't have a child I imagine I would not want a gun being pointed at him or her if I had one. However, I realize that even though I would have an irrational fear for my child's safety I would still both want SWAT to both break up such events and to carry guns while doing so. Since it seems to turn out there were drugs and that claims of police brutality were exaggerated at best I think the police were doing exactly what they should be doing when they broke up the rave.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:I wont speak for him, but I will give you my view on this. I would rather not have anyone point a gun at my child. But if they are doing things that are against the law then perhaps it could be the wake up call they need to get their life back on track.
Why do you assume all the kids there were doing things against the law? I'm sure there were pleny of kids there who did absolutely nothing wrong and still got guns pointed at them. All they wanted to do was assemble peacefully and dance!
quote:gnixing didn't say that he would be ok with a gun being pointed at his child's head he just said he would want SWAT there.
That's true, he didn't. But they WERE there with guns, and that's what he is trying to defend.
quote: I hope that we are able to teach our children so that this wont be something that will happen.
What if the only thing your kids did wrong was go to a party?
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
If police were tracking this party for several weeks they should have talked to the promoters beforehand. Otherwise, they could only be trying to make a statement about how you're not allowed to have parties in the desert anymore.
There are many people at raves who are not on drugs. (I have never been to one, but I have several friends who have gone up to Seattle for large events.)
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote: There are many people at raves who are not on drugs.
I second this. Raves were originally about the music and the dancing, and unfortunately they also became a popular place to get high. A lot of them still ARE about the music and the dancing. It's inevitable that almost every sort of dance/party/concert will have at least a few people with drugs on them, but I don't think that's cause for sending in the SWAT team. The security guards might not have been legally confiscating the drugs, or even planning to destroy them after taking them, but at least they were making an effort to keep the place safe and clean. I definitely agree with anyone who has said that the police should have taken action against the party before it began, rather than breaking it up in the manner that they did. Police brutality or not (since it doesn't seem clear whether or not it actually happened), dropping armed men in the middle of a large group of people like that seems like a really dumb idea. I'd probably be more worried about getting trampled by other fleeing concert-goers than by getting roughed up by a cop.
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posted
Steven: as one that participates at GC and a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints aka: mormon. I didn't attack you in any manner. In fact I stayed out of that thread on purpose.
You shouldn't use blanket statements to prove your points.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Back to the rave topic: Maybe we should form a new name for musical gatherings without drugs. Then enforce the drug policy. People that still want to have and attend raves can and will. However people that attend the other will be protected from people that want to do drugs and ruin it for those that are just there for the music.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I support what whiskysunrise said. I would not want my children having guns pointed at their heads, but if I raise kids to be such morons that they would attend such a gathering, I would understand it. And I'd rather it be the SWAT team than the drug dealers or the drugged out freaks.
I've lived near drugs enough of my life to know the damage they cause people and the confusion they induce.
I've got one other important point. Raves are NOT parties. They are about music, sex, and getting high. There is nothing good going to come out of a rave. Nothing. There is a reason that raves are not legal in the state of Utah, and I support it completely.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I think perhaps you're painting raves with too broad a brush, gnixing. How many have you attended? Either you're incorrect, or else you're calling several people here-in this thread and unknowingly-liars.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I think I'd prefer my children didn't go to a performance where guards are taking drugs from people. That would not be a venue I would want them at. I might even think that the police coming in would be a nice scare, although it wouldn't be my top choice due to the chance of injury during a raid. I'd rather they just didn't attend at all. Yup.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Uh, I've been to raves to dance and have a good time. I am not a moron. I also did not do any drugs there. It was a fun PARTY. ?
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:I think I'd prefer my children didn't go to a performance where guards are taking drugs from people. That would not be a venue I would want them at. I might even think that the police coming in would be a nice scare, although it wouldn't be my top choice due to the chance of injury during a raid. I'd rather they just didn't attend at all. Yup.
I would rather have my kids go somewhere the guards are at least trying to provide a safe and drug free atmosphere. I've been to many many concerts and security never takes drugs away from people. Plenty of people have them though, and do them at the concert.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Well, I mean I wouldn't want them at a place WITH drug use. Drugs with the other guests OR with the guards, I don't care, I wouldn't want kids around em. Isn't that the whole problem with many raves? That's why they get a bad name. All the drugs at most raves.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: I've got one other important point. Raves are NOT parties. They are about music, sex, and getting high. There is nothing good going to come out of a rave. Nothing. There is a reason that raves are not legal in the state of Utah, and I support it completely.
As mentioned before, exactly how many raves have you been to lately? I think you're getting the wrong idea from the blatantly distorted image the media puts out about these gatherings.
I live in a busy college town with a very active music community. I also live on THE so-called "party" street in my area. I am just blocks away from the most popular clubs and music venues. While I am not a huge fan of going out to clubs and parties, I do end up at quite a few of them because of my location and my friends. The people that go to most raves, at least in MY area, are going there to experience the music, dancing, and general atmosphere of the party. I'll be the first to admit that a lot of raves and parties are about drinking and getting high, but you are wrong to lump them all into the same generalization. It's an unfair stereotype, and until you have experienced the current music scene and been to a few raves yourself, you shouldn't judge them on what you have heard from the media. Nice, straight-edge, trouble-free parties don't make for good news, so of course you don't hear about them. They ARE out there. I'm not saying that this gathering in Utah was one of them, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of a doubt based on the evidence I have seen.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Straight Edge is usually just a coverup, there are some people that actually go along with it. Although I would say with my experience of many that I went to High School with, that they were not living what they said they were living.
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posted
That has not been my experience...Although I will say they usually were not as forcefully straight as they seemed. But no drugs.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Here's what bothers me about a SWAT team being used to break up a party. My grandfather was a cop, and from him I learned that a cop should never draw his gun unless he damn well means to kill someone.
When I took martial arts, I decided to apply the same principle. To do my best to never raise my fists outside of practice, unless I meant to seriously injure, maim or kill my opponet.
To use a Special Weapons and Tactics team on a rave is major overkill. Dangers of a crowd of people aside (such as someone with a knife) in your average, unregulated rave, the dangerous ones, or rather the ones most likely to be arrested, are the ones on drugs. Extacy may be a methanphetamine, but it does not freaking empower you. Neither does alcohol, GHB, Ketamine or weed. You arguably do become a danger to those around you, but your average sober cop can usually handle it.
To use guns in a threatening manner, in a situation where there is no more danger to the police officers life than in a club or a bar, is irresponsible, and dishonorable. If you draw a gun on me, you better mean to kill me with it, because you do not draw such a dangerous weapon until all other peaceful solutions have failed. What evidence is there that the law attempted at any point to resolve this issue peacefully? It seems to me that if this sponser was making inquiries and was under surveilance, why was there no action taken before the event? What possible information can be gleaned from an average drug user in a cell that cannot be found out by undercover opperatives?
They weren't after the drugs. Narc officers aren't looking for the small time dealers and users, they look for the big ones. A raid like this is too large a profile for Narcotics, it would drive the big-time dealers into hiding. So I have to ask again, why the high-profile, over-kill raid? What were the police honestly expecting to find there?
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:It seems to me that if this sponser was making inquiries and was under surveilance, why was there no action taken before the event?
Thank you!
quote: They weren't after the drugs. Narc officers aren't looking for the small time dealers and users, they look for the big ones. A raid like this is too large a profile for Narcotics, it would drive the big-time dealers into hiding. So I have to ask again, why the high-profile, over-kill raid? What were the police honestly expecting to find there?
posted
I was once involved in the promotion of a rave. Mainly I lost a lot of money flying in DJ's from out of state and paying a guy to put together thousands of glossy full-color flyers.
This was a couple of years ago, some nameless place in Salt Lake County.
We had all the required permits from State, City, and County. We had insurance. We had licensed security working the doors to prevent drugs from coming in. We paid for the one-night location rental. Everything was legal and completely in order.
For about 4 hours it was an absolute blast. Personally I'm not much of a raver, so I just hung around in the background listening to the music and looking at all the pretty, pretty colors ...
Then, at about 3 a.m. a bunch of cops showed up in kevlar, batons out, with 5 or 6 K-9 units, shouting and ordering kids against walls. (I kid you not.) They did not tear gas the crowd but I did see them getting rough with some poor acid-freak who must have been having a terrible trip around the time they pinned him to some metal bleachers, smashing his face against an edge and drawing blood. They conducted many, many illegal searches that night -- and cleared the place, and shut us down, causing major financial problems for me.
It sounds like they brought in a lot more Neo-cons to bust this latest one, though. What happened to us was sort of despicable, but at least we didn't get tear-gassed.
So I have no doubt that this happened. Police in Utah have very little regard for the actual law. They seem to want to enforce some kind of moral code, and I've seen them get out of hand several times.
In my experience the kind of people who gravitate towards Police work tend to be the ex-schoolyard bullies, who just absolutely salivate at the chance to bust the heads of those sissy counterculture types. There're a few good ones, of course. But I have a very easy time believing a bunch of cops getting all mobbed-up and hard at the thought of busting some raver heads.
You know what I'm saying? They weren't there because the event was illegal. They weren't there to bust small-time drug use. There were there for one reason and one reason only:
To send a message.
We don't accept this kind of thing in Utah. You are not welcome. We will squash you and your neo-hippy ways, you dumb bastards. Keep out.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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And by the way, I just watched the video, and anyone who thinks the cops in that video *weren't* out of line is crazy. They did not identify themselves as Police. They did not make any effort to deal peacefully with the crowd or with the people on stage. They simply moved in, screaming, "SHUT IT DOWN! SHUT IT DOWN NOW! SHUT IT DOWN!" with no explanation of what the hell they wanted or why they were there. Some pig shouting "GIT!! GIT!!" at some girls for no reason seems acceptable to some people?
I won't bash Utah because I don't live there. The rest of what you said was clear and articulate and I believe, right. Thank you.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I'll bash Utah, but that's because of my family. Utah isn't really that bad at all. Climate is well rounded, all seasons. People aren't the nicest, but it isn't downtown LA in downtown SLC.
posted
Well, I do live in Utah and actually I like most things about it. I defend Utah against all the B.S. it gets, but this particular raid was ridiculous. I shouldn't have so disparaging about the entire state because I _do_ like it here, but...
The two things I really hate about Utah are the Police and the Politics. Bullies. Dirty. Sneaky. Despicable. Absolutely. Yes.
But other than that, Utah is great.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Wasn't this a Utah County (Provo) operation? I live in SLC and Utah County seems very strange to me. It is even called happy valley. But on my mission I heard stories about what "good Mormon" teenagers did down there and it made me seriously wonder what was going on. I never did anything like what they did, never even thought of it, and I wasn't a saint. And then the fight clubs started going on down there, and now they are doing these big rave parties? Mix that with the adults who seem to be more up tight than... a bungee jumper(?) and you get craziness like this "bust".
And that is absolutely right about not pulling guns unless you intend to kill! And shouting like they were? From the description at the start of the tread, I thought there would be a stampede.
One explanation for the difference of opinions on raves is backgrounds. In my little culture cell, raves mean nothing but drugs and sex. Sure, it isn't like that, but for my culture (the people I am surrounded by), that is what "rave" means. I certainly don't think that. But I can't help *not* think it. Does that make sense?
This may explain why I think Provo is strange. If I live in very liberal SLC and this is what I think, what must it be like for people in ultra-conservative Provo?
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
My boyfriend decided to chime in, be prepared for spelling errors and such. I cleaned it up a bit. He wrote it really fast before he went to work this AM.
From the Bill of rights: Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievance
AMENDMENT XIV Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
-A Promoter decides to have a party.
-He decided to do so legally and obtains a number of permits. He must pay the local goverments for these permits if he wishes to have a party that is "legal" under the laws of that area.
-He may or may not have missed getting one of the permits dealing with more then 250 people gathering in one place.
-He hires paramedics and security to work the event. (The quality and quantity of the staff is unclear at the moment.) He does this because he must be responsible to any of his customers who pay to attend this event.
-The local law enforcement officials decided that the party is illegal before it has happened because they claim one of the permits was not obtained.
-They do not contact the promoter to tell him of the missing "required permit" and instead begin planning an elaborate way of breaking up the event once it has already begun. (If a branch of government is aware of a problem shouldn't they let the parties involved know about the problem so that it could be resolved to the benefit of the promoter who has already given money to that government for the "right" to hold an event? If you pay for a permit shouldn't you, at the very least, be entitled to the assumption that you are trying to comply with the law and shouldn't the law enforcement agents go out of their way to make sure you are in full compliance since you have already paid them in good faith once? Also when you add the fact that any government agency is there to provide a service to you as a tax paying citizen, shouldn't the very idea of interupting you in the act of commerce be an absolute last resort because it is commerce that creates that tax money?)
(sorry for the run on sentences there)
-The promoter was throwing a party for customers who wanted that service and was incurring the cost of equipment and employees to do so. (Several of the DJs had been flown into Utah to work the event so it was not as if it was a few buddies with a home stereo. This event cost money. You don't spend money to have no return on your investment because the government that you already paid decided not to tell you that you would be breaking a law.)
-From the customers perspective, they paid for a service and should be entitled to get what they paid for without the government interupting them. (You don't pay to go to a club with the expectation that a group of armed men with trained attack dogs are going to be threating you with violence while a helicopter flies overhead.)
-As a citizen you've paid for that helicopter and it's fuel, the SWAT team and it's armorments, and the training of those dogs. (You should be presumed to be innocent of any wrongdoing by the police. They should treat you with care and respect because you pay for the job they have.)
-From the Law Enforcement perspective:
-Why didn't the cops first correct the problem with permits before the event?
-Why didn't the cops stop the event from happening that night if they knew it to be in violation?
-Why didn't the cops, if they believed that people at the party would be breaking the law, offer to have officers at the event? (That would cost less then bringing in a full SWAT team and helicopter- Again tax payer money.)
-Why didn't they do their jobs and arrest anyone who was breaking the law and leave anyone not breaking the law alone to enjoy the entertainment they had already paid for?
-Did they need to use a SWAT team to breakup a dance party? (I could understand having them ready maybe, but guys in full body armor threatening and pointing big ass guns at people who came to listen to music and dance seems very excessive.)
-By not informing the promoter of a "missing" permit weren't they in effect stealing the money he paid the goverment already while using the tax money of his clients, employees, and custumers to rob him since he paid for services he did not recieve?
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
m_p_h--let's not hijack this thread anymore. But to clarify, I really did think Bob was serious about thinking Price was right at the time. I was being overly optimistic, but don't call me a liar. If you really think I'm a liar still, you don't understand human nature completely.
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