posted
I guess I misunderstood, m_p_h. I just assumed any intelligent adult in Utah would have heard of this group.
As far as the plural marriage thing goes, is that the only reason why larger groups break away from the church?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Maybe steven read some Harry Turtledove books, Utah tried to secede a couple of times and form a new nation which they called Deseret because the Mormons were being treated as second class citizens.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Yeah, my thread kinda did go down the toilet! Let's get back on topic. This was not about Utah, it's just where it happened! This is about a rave gone bad...When SWAT attacks! Next on Fox.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:I guess I misunderstood, m_p_h. I just assumed any intelligent adult in Utah would have heard of this group.
Why? It's a tiny community on the border of the state. There are thousands of tiny communities that I know nothing about.
Also, intelligence does not mean knowledge.
quote:As far as the plural marriage thing goes, is that the only reason why larger groups break away from the church?
This is not a thing that happens hardly at all. It happened over 100 years ago when there was a major change in the church. Other major changes in the past, such as when Joseph Smith died, have caused other splits. But I haven't heard of one happening within the last 100 years.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
To be honest, I'm very dubious of all the reports of unnecessary violence (if you couldn't tell). On the news last night (or maybe the night before), they interviewed a girl who had been there, and I believe they introduced her as someone who had been punched and kicked by police officers. But then all she said was that a policeman had grabbed her arm.
Then they zoomed in real close on her arm. It took me a second to realize that they were showing what looked like it might have been a bruise under the right light. Oh brother, I thought.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
There were those that thought that the leadership of the church should be heridetary, and that Joseph Smith's son (who was pretty young at the time) should lead the church. This group ended up being called The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. A few years ago they changed their name to, IIRC, The Community of Christ.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I don't really know that much about it, but here's my (probably wrong) understanding:
They changed their name they joined a community or coalition of protestant churches. They also changed some of their doctrine at the same time, including now claiming that the Book of Mormon is just an allegory, and is not true in the same way the Bible is true.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Why use the word "jack," though? Was a man named Jack the archetypal excommunicated Mormon?
Jack Mormon originally meant a non-member who was sympathetic to the church. It has come to mean a member-in-name-but-not-in-action.
As to etymology, I'm not sure. That'd be fun to know. *goes off to google*
Found it.
quote:‘The Random House Unabridged Dictionary’ defines JACK MORMON as: 1) a Mormon not active in the church or adhering strictly to Mormon principles (e.g. one who smokes and drinks, etc.) or 2) a non-Mormon living amicably among Mormons.
One of the first references to "Jack Mormon" comes from B. H. Roberts' ‘Comprehensive History of the Church, ‘volume 2, page 322, in a footnote. Apparently, Thomas C. Sharpe, editor of the ‘Warsaw Signal’ (Illinois), an anti-Mormon newspaper of the 1840s, first used the expression ‘Jack Mason’ to refer to anyone who refused to take part in the anti-Mason activities of the 1830s. Sharpe later coined the term "Jack Mormon" to refer to people who were not members of the Mormon church but who sympathized with the Mormons and refused to terrorize and punish them. For many years thereafter, the term referred to anyone who supported or sympathized with the church but was not Mormon.
The expression was obviously used in a derogatory sense by Sharpe since he was being critical of these Mormon sympathizers. The only meanings of ‘jack’ that were current at that time (mid-1800s) and that appear applicable were 1) ‘man or common man’ (Chaucer used the expression ‘Jakke fool’ as far back as the 14th century in ‘Canterbury Tale’) and jack-of-all-trades dates from the early 17th century. 2) ‘a fool’– a contemptibly foolish or stupid person, dolt, blockhead ass,’ which originally meant an ‘impertinent and rude fellow’ and was the source of ‘jack’ in’ jackass.’ This second meaning seems the more likely, but whether Sharp would have been using it in its original sense or as a shortening of ‘jackass’ is not clear. [note: ‘jack’ also referred to the male in animals (e.g. jack hare) and the ‘jackrabbit’ gets its name from its long jack-ass like ears].
1845 “Jack Mormons, and sympathizers abroad may croak and groan over the poor Mormons.”—‘Quincy (Illinois) Whig,’ 30 Oct.. page 2/1
1846 “A certain Jack-mormon of Hancock county, we won't call him big-head, (but the Saints used to) is in the habit of shaving the hair off his forehead, in order to give it an intellectual appearance.”—‘Warsaw (Ill.) Signal,’ 6 Feb., page 3/1
(Oxford English Dictionary, Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, Cassell’s Dictionary of Slang)
posted
Also just to put some light on the Law Enforcement of Utah. Although there is a large percentage of Mormons (LDS) in Utah and understandably so, there is actually a much LOWER percentage of law enforcement members who are Mormon.
To Illustrate, I live in a small neighborhood with approximately 50+ homes. Approx. 3 of those homes are lived in by Law Enforcement Officers. One of the homes has a husband and wife that are both Law Enforcement.
None of them are Mormon.
Unfortunately current "Law Enforcement" jobs are somewhat "unappealing" to active Mormons and in some ways contradictory in much the same way being a Trucker is.
There aren't alot of Mormon Truckers. Likewise there aren't alot of Mormon Law Enforcement Officers.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
steven - Here's an example for you: my aunt (who is not an active member in the LDS church) was a police officer in Utah. Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I just knew some bonehead would make a crack about the LDS Church in connection with this story. Replace "Mormon" with "Jews" or "Gays" and let's see how quick he'd be willing to continue such open slurs.
Amazing.
As for this case, there was a similiar issue with the WTO riots up here in Seattle. It's been interesting to see how the heat fell on the police but, over time, news organizations have tracked down a number of core groups who actively made a point to cause mischief, damage and violence simply to make some kind of statement. Suddenly everyone's seeing why the police acted the way they did.
I figure somewhere between what the witness said, and what the police say, is the truth.
P.S. It's too bad things turned out the way they did; the music in that video was pretty cool...
Posts: 325 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
My uncle is an active Mormon, and a cop. My wife's father is in the National Guard and her uncle trains the police officers at Weber State. They are both active Mormons.
The state is not run by the Mormons. It's being run down by morons like Rocky Anderson - mayor of Salt Lake City (a non-Mormon borderline Anti-Mormon).
I have no problem with what I've seen and heard about the rave bust. Sounds like it's about time.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
The long-time chief of police in Dallas is (was? He may have retired) a Mormon. Served in my stake presidency when I lived out there, in fact.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by steven: So is every Mormon on Hatrack in agreement with the assumption that "active mormons don't like being cops, with a few exceptions?"
No. I live a few blocks from a half dozen cops and a few are Mormon. The others are non-Mormon.
And ironically I know 4 truck drivers who are Mormon too.
quote:I thought Mormons liked the military, in general, and were proud to have their kids serve.
True. There are some who are against the war, but are a minority.
quote:The state is not run by the Mormons. It's being run down by morons like Rocky Anderson - mayor of Salt Lake City (a non-Mormon borderline Anti-Mormon).
True. President Bush just came to SLC and Rocky Anderson has to be the most brazen Mayor in America because *he* actually organized a protest. The Mayor organized a protest against the President. The Mayor. And I wouldn't call him borderline Anti-Mormon. He constantly takes the side of anti-mormons no matter how small their numbers or what they want. I can't believe this city elected him...
--
As far as cops being bossy, oh yeah. They are like that. You do what they say without hesitation or else. I think they are like this because they think people who don't obey them are threats.
For example, an old guy recently walked to his curb to see what the men in the dark car were doing. They told him they were police and he was to go into his house NOW. He stood there and waited, and then put his hands behind his back so they shot him because they thought he was pulling a gun. Which was ridiculous. But they are cops, and cops do get shot often enough that I guess it makes them, well, it makes them very mean.
My guess is that the cops know that the organizers (or whoever got busted) have links with bigger criminals. Otherwise, why go through the trouble? I mean, who cares about a few possession charges? And if they were really worried about the permit violation, why did they wait until everyone got there? They should have just put up road blocks or something and not let anyone in. I mean, they had to know it would be a disaster once they showed up.
I suppose they might have just wanted to crash the party. But because of the risk involved with such an operation (people *could* have gotten shot), I doubt that they were just crashing the party.
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I have no problem with what I've seen and heard about the rave bust. Sounds like it's about time.
quote:
Why do you not have a problem with a SWAT team coming to stop a rave with a bunch of KIDS??
If it was all about the lack of proper permits, as said here:
Saturday's party, named Versus II, had been tracked by police for several weeks, Gilbert said. Police planned the bust when they discovered that the rave's promoters had not filed for a mass gathering permit through the County Commission office. To have more than 250 at an event without that permit is a violation of the law, Gilbert said.
why the heck would you need a SWAT team? If police were "tracking" this event, there was plenty of time to work with the promoters and see that they had permits. (Which they say they had btw)
Even if you think there is a bunch of kids doing drugs, again why a SWAT team?? What is the normal procedure at rock concerts? Security guards and maybe some police if they think there is going to be trouble. But a SWAT team with guns pointed at you? Nobody finds this overkill??
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I do. But like I said, I can only assume the cops thought there was more going on or that they could use the bust to get to something else. Crashing a party for the sake of crashing a party seems really stupid when people (cops too) could get killed. And if they were just crashing the party... <sigh>
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posted
I would like to know what in the world could be going on at a party that cops were "tracking" it, didn't stop it ahead of time and busted in with helicopters and 90 men with guns.
(sorry I sound angry. I'm not mad at you, human, annoyed at government)
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Are people still giving steven the time of day?
Wow.
It ain't my forum either, steven, but the people it does belong to have made their views very clear about attacks on religion such as those you're making.
posted
Treason - do you know what a rave really is?
If I was in law enforcement, I wouldn't try to bust up a rave without the SWAT covering my back. The people there aren't "KIDS". They aren't naive, and this "party" was intended to no good ends.
If I were the parent of any of those "KIDS," I'd want the SWAT team there to teach them a proper lesson.
And security guards collecting drugs... do any of you actually buy that?
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Substitute yourself for Lady Astor, and any children you may have for Winston Churchill.
Lady Astor: If you were my husband, I'd poison your drink. Winston Churchill: If you were my wife, I'd drink it.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Why don't you head on over to www.galacticcactus.com and see what the mormons were saying about me when they thought I wasn't around? I'm deeply impressed by their sense of honor.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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Let's start with this. I've been to a rave or two in my time, yes. I am a little old for it now however.
quote:
If I was in law enforcement, I wouldn't try to bust up a rave without the SWAT covering my back. The people there aren't "KIDS". They aren't naive, and this "party" was intended to no good ends.
quote:
You were not there, so you don't know if they were kids or not. I assume they are because the raves I have been to have been full of kids. I am just going by experience. I never said the kids were "naive" either. Speaking from experience I would say they were there to dance, hit on members of the opposite sex (or same sex, whatever) get high, and have a good time. That pretty much happens at every concert I've been at. Not SWAT team required.
quote:
If I were the parent of any of those "KIDS," I'd want the SWAT team there to teach them a proper lesson.
quote:
I think it's frightening that you would be ok with your daughter or son having guns pointed at them. You are not a parent, are you?
And finally:
quote:
And security guards collecting drugs... do any of you actually buy that?
quote:Originally posted by steven: Why don't you head on over to www.galacticcactus.com and see what the mormons were saying about me when they thought I wasn't around? I'm deeply impressed by their sense of honor.
Steven, you are lying again. You were specifically told by scottneb that you were being talked about over at GC so that it wouldn't be behind your back.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Treason: Just a nitpick—when quoting someone, use one opening tag before the quote and one closing tag after, not one of each before and after.
steven: If you have a problem with me, you can e-mail me. Leave my church out of it, and stop with the trolling. Also, I don't think we were saying anything about you that hadn't already been said to your face.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I think a word like 'honor' has little use on an online forum where most of the people haven't met each other or done much except exchange text. This forum is a bit of an exception, because people HAVE met and often done very nice, even honorable things for each other.
In any case, your style certainly doesn't make you qualified to comment on anyone else's 'honor' Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Steven, thanks for the link. I find it quite entertaining. I didn't know you were such a repeat offender.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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You're not the mod, JB, get it? You're not the mod. I'll listen to you on your board. I don't have a problem with what got said there. I misread one of Primal Curve's posts, that's why I posted in the first place.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
steven, Jon Boy's telling you these sorts of things so the mods don't have to get involved. We like to self-police, in order to save the moderators from all that work. Also, people are probably trying to help you conform to the social standards around here so you don't get banned.
We're not doing this just to be bossy.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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