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I don't disagree with that advice, but it sounds like it was insufficient. Either go talk with them again, and ask for specific advice; or try talking with a different trusted adult.
Your interest was a trigger, perhaps. But your dad made his own choices -- 20 years ago, when he married your mom, and more recently. You are NOT responsible for his choices.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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But I AM responsible for my choices, and my choices determine my mom's reaction to my dad. If I set a good example, she'll think, hey, maybe it's not so bad. If I set a bad example, she'll think, what jerks, I want them to stay away from there. But it's REALLY hard to be kind and loving when I'm constantly being told I'm not good enough.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:and my choices determine my mom's reaction to my dad.
NO! She makes that choice, more influenced by his behavior than yours -- and in the end, it is HER choice.
Just as I cannot force you to choose to believe me (much as I wish I could ) about this or anything else, you are not responsible for anyone's choices but your own.
It bothered me enough when you were convinced your boyfriend's choices were your fault, but this is far worse. No one is responsible for your choices but you, neh? So why would you be responsible for anyone else's?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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And at you for believing her! You are reaching adulthood, and part of that is learning to sort through the various things you are told by those around you, and deciding which ones to accept as true. You were strong enough to make the choice of religious beliefs that differ from hers -- you are strong enough to know that just because she says something is your fault doesn't make it so.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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And for the most part, I believe that. You see, she's still convinced that until I am a legal adult, she should choose what church I go to and what religion I practice. In other words, she could suddently force me to be Buddhist without my consent. Which I think is a load of crap, but there you have it.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:and my choices determine my mom's reaction to my dad.
NO! She makes that choice, more influenced by his behavior than yours -- and in the end, it is HER choice.
Just as I cannot force you to choose to believe me (much as I wish I could ) about this or anything else, you are not responsible for anyone's choices but your own.
It bothered me enough when you were convinced your boyfriend's choices were your fault, but this is far worse. No one is responsible for your choices but you, neh? So why would you be responsible for anyone else's?
rivka is right about this. You are responsible for your choices only. Your mother reacts however she chooses to react. You are not responsible for her or her happiness.
Being a good child does not mean doing whatever your parents tell you to do. Not all parents know what is best for them or their children, and from what you're describing, your mother would seem to fall into that category.
Being a good human, however, does mean becoming responsible for your own life, your own happiness, your own decisions. You need to decide to be responsible for yourself and become the kind of person you will be happy with.
Look, I've been through this. If my parents had their way, I'd still be under their thumb, they would still be abusing me (I'm 37) in any way they could and they would still make me responsible for everything that ever went wrong with every single member of the family and everything that has ever gone wrong, regardless of whether or not I was even alive at that point.
One day, I finally realized that, as horrible as they were, if I didn't like the person I was, I could change myself into the person I wanted to be. And I did.
Nope, not done, but getting closer, and not now and not for a long time have I felt responsible for their choices.
They are who they are because of their own decisions. I am not them because of my decisions.
Question is, what do you want? What kind of a person do you want to be? You have the choice of figuring that out and then becoming that person. Or you can decide to keep accepting the blame your parents heap upon you.
And no, your mother can't make you become a Buddhist. She might try to make you go to a Buddhist temple, but she can't make you believe anything you don't want to believe. You decide what you let in.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Which did not say that children are invariably better off if the parents stay together. Also, children of divorce do suffer, in every case, period...just because divorce is never a good thing. Sometimes it's the best thing, in a given situation (beating, drug addiction, cheating are obvious possibilities), but it's never something the child will be happy about. At best, the divorce will be a positive ending to an unhappy relationship, which the child will remember.
I'm one who's grateful his parents divorced. They're both remarkable people, and though I wish to god my mom had more money with which to raise her two sons -- and this is NOT a criticism of her, she's incredible, I just wish life had been easier on her -- my childhood would've been hellish if they'd stayed together. My dad would visit on a monthly basis and over holidays, and if the two spent more than thirty seconds in a room together a nightmare would break out. They're both remarkable people and parents, each in their own way, but they don't belong together.
Squick said it best, the stigma doesn't belong on divorce, it belongs on marriage. Marriage should be sacrosanct -- proselytization of it only cheapens the institution. If a couple can't work out, they should discover that long before either wind up married; and if they foolishly marry before taking the time to explore their compatibility, what idiot would demand they stay together and miserable?
The issue complicates with children, but the basic premise holds. If the children are going to be raised in an abusive or miserable environment, they'll grow to become abusive or miserable adults -- and any responsible parent will take the burden on his or her own shoulders and raise the children free from the consequences of the adults' mistakes. I despise anyone who tries to look down on single mothers -- these are the bravest women alive, and bravo to them for taking on such a struggle.
High divorce rates give me hope, honestly. Often, it means women are freeing themselves from abusive and controlling relationships. Those who criticize high divorce rates are often mistaking their enemy -- target high marriage rates, fools. Bring down the marriage rate, and you'll be skimming off the frivolous and the quick; and see a resulting drastic decline in the divorce rate. And for god's sake, stop declaring all non-marital relationships sinful; guilting children straight into unhappy marriages is the stem of the evil divorce rate so many idiots preach against.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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This has been a wonderful thread. I have learned so much from everyone's posts. About the book, I agree that we need to recognize and hear more about the hurt that is done to the innocent children when parents divorce. Divorce is like a death, it's something that should never be undertaken lightly. The thing is, I don't agree that it often is.
I wholeheartedly agree that marriage and parenthood should not be undertaken lightly. I don't think it's possible to be certain about what will happen, or what a future spouse will be like in 10 or 20 years. There are no guarantees, and just as plenty of people with all the right indicators (stable family, responsible personality, etc.) will still fail, so there will be lots of people who don't come from perfect families who will succeed. Everyone is wounded in some way or another, and we're all imperfect.
The thing I strongly disagree with in Uncle Orson's article is this. "Maybe its time that we, as a society, took back the adult responsibility of actively affirming marriage and disapproving of the breakup of families, openly expressing our contempt for behavior that wrecks marriages and exposes children and more-innocent spouses to the misery that results." I don't see how holding contempt for others, much less openly expressing it, is ever helpful or good. Contempt doesn't inspire people, or model better behavior, nor does it positively affect anyone's life, either the contemptee or the contemptor. Contempt nearly always seems to stem from a mistaken belief in one's own superiority, and a misunderstanding of the true situation.
I honestly don't think anyone can really understand what it's like to be another person. I've seen divorces in which the party who initiated the divorce was roundly reviled by outsiders who claimed it was unnecessary, because there was no physical violence, but I understood why it was essential, and why the marriage was very unhealthy. Obviously divorce should never ever be undertaken lightly, yet I don't believe outsiders can really know or judge what is the true situation in a marriage, and I know that contempt is never a positive thing.
I think the major thing I dislike about Ornery is the contempt that seems so prevalent there, in the few times I've visited, and in the posts of many of the people who came to Hatrack from Ornery over the years. I think a healthy humble view of one's own limitations in knowledge and understanding will nearly always reveal that one's contempt is misplaced.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I've been near where you are. You are not responsible, you are being made a scapegoat by your mother. And honestly, she is attempting to hurt you to, in turn, hurt your father.
Please, please, please, sit down and talk with a guidance counselor or a pastor or someone older than you that you trust. Your life is far too precious for this kind of hurt to be coming your way.
Your parents will resolve their problems between themselves, just as they have created them. You have done absolutely NOTHING wrong. Be gentle with yourself now, for it seems that others are being unduly rough to you.
(And just remember, there's a whole world of people that love you, both in and outside of your family. Don't do anything to hurt the person we love, okay?)
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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OSC article:"openly expressing our contempt for behavior"
Tatiana:"I don't see how holding contempt for others, much less openly expressing it, is ever helpful or good."
There is a distinct, and important, difference between contempt for behavior and contempt for people. There are all kinds of destructive behaviors that we SHOULD have contempt for. We should make sure people know that we feel this way, because it is an important way of discouraging the behavior. They should know we feel this way BEFORE they actually participate in the behavior, so that they know that we aren't just holding the person in contempt.
I really think that if someone knows that most people feel strongly that something is very wrong, they will be less inclined to do it.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2005
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What I've read suggests that, whatever your mother might say, you _are_ a good person. You're trying to do what's best for everyone at a considerable cost to yourself, and you're 17. The state of your adult parents' relationship should not be- is not- your responsibility.
It may sound selfish, but I'll say your responsibility is to make sure that remarkable person who is you gets through this intact so she can emerge into a bigger world and start being around people who will actually benefit from and appreciate the kind of compassion you're showing.
You said you're suicidal. I hope that's an exaggeration. But if it isn't, I plead- hold on. You'd be denying yourself, and others, too much. Things won't always be the way they are now. They can get better. They will. Honest.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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You know, Sterling, that's what my dad told me. Something along the lines of "You're taking things into your hands that have no reason to be there."
I'm not suicidal at the moment- I'm on Lexapro, and things are looking up in that regard. But this is really, really stressful, especially with graduation coming up, and auditions for OSU's music program... ugh. There are times when I'd give anything to be 6 again, not worrying about anything other than the spider in the sandbox, knowing daddy would make everything okay and if I got a boo-boo mommy would kiss it and make it all better. *sigh* Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Tinros, you are *not* responsible for your mother's happiness. No matter what she says. I've been there.
My father lived vicariously through me for years, and I was never "good enough". I got an 800 on the verbal section of the PSAT, and I got yelled at because I didn't get the math section perfect too.
The fact is, if she didn't have you to blame, she'd be blaming someone else. If it wasn't this issue, she'd move on to another to complain about. Giving up your own life isn't actually going to make hers any better. Only she can make her life any better, and it sounds like instead of trying to move herself up, she's trying to pull everyone else down to the same level of misery. Why? Cause it is easier. To choose to work on improving yourself takes *hard work* and sometimes that's a hard reality to face. But only until you face that reality, can you become a better person. If she's not ready to face that yet, there isn't anything you can do.
And if it isn't this issue, if you cave on this, I promise she's going to find something else to try to take away.
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BannaOj is entirely right, Tinros. The woman you're describing, your mother, did not need you to provide "fault" for this situation. The woman you're describing would have manufactured fault-someone else's, of course-and applied it soon enough.
It's like...let's say your mailman is consistently delivering mail late. You call him on it, criticizing him (without being rude or insulting about it), but it turns out that this mailman fits the stereotype and goes postal. That's hardly your fault. He was already crazy and packing guns. You were just the unlucky trigger in a world full of triggers.
This situation is no more your fault than it's a single wildebeast's fault if it gets picked out of the massive herds by a pride of lions. Those lions were gonna eat something that day. The problem is her irrationality, not your rational actions in the face of that irrationality.
Her depression, if she is clinically depressed, is probably not entirely her fault...but that doeasn't make it your fault, either. Don't cave in on this church thing. It's not just horribly impractical like AJ says (give up now you'll be giving up forever), it's just wrong to do so.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: You know, Sterling, that's what my dad told me. Something along the lines of "You're taking things into your hands that have no reason to be there."
I'm not suicidal at the moment- I'm on Lexapro, and things are looking up in that regard. But this is really, really stressful, especially with graduation coming up, and auditions for OSU's music program... ugh. There are times when I'd give anything to be 6 again, not worrying about anything other than the spider in the sandbox, knowing daddy would make everything okay and if I got a boo-boo mommy would kiss it and make it all better. *sigh*
I wish I could tell you it isn't going to get more complicated, but we'd both know it's a lie.
But "adult" life has some remarkable joys, as well.
It's being a teenager that sucks.
Concentrate on your audition. There you might see some well-deserved rewards. Try not to worry too much about your parents. (I know- that's a little like trying not to think about a pink elephant, but far, far more stressful.)
And if it's not too corny to say so, know that the people here clearly care about you.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Thanks guys. At least I'm leaving high school now, and when I come back as a teacher I'll have the authority to DO something about the idiots in the world. That's one way working with a band is different than working with some other kind of class- you have to get them to work together somehow. Challenging, but extremely rewarding from what I hear. I'm really looking forward to the rest of my life right about now.
A bit of good news- I got accepted to Ohio State yesterday(my dream school)!
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OSU's great. Don't miss jumping in Mirror Lake at the start of football season, it's an event. And most of the venereal diseases you'll contract from there can be cured.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Oh, of course. I've had a bunch of shots recently at Wright Patt(my dad is retired Air Force), so I should be pretty good.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I think that one of the most wonderful and yet harmful aspects of being a child, is that feeling of invulnerability and power. It is this feeling that allows us to try new things, to dream and finally leave home. It is also this feeling that makes us feel like we've more power in any given situation than we actually do.
I don't completely buy into the idea that we aren't responsible for the happiness of those around us, nor do I accept that we are uniquely responsible for our own happiness. My day can be brightened by a stranger's smile; I can can lift a friend with a hug- we do affect one another everyday in both positive and negative ways.
That said, there are things over which children audaciously assume they have control. Two of these assumptions are completely naive and self-destructive:
1) Their parents' relationship 2) The way that their parents treat them
Because you've decided that you led your father away from your mother by leading him back to his faith, it will be hard for you to accept that this should be an issue separate from the core of your parents marriage. Since, as a child, you've internalized the blame for this, let's look at the second assumption.
Tinros, did you know that children 6 and younger blame themselves for their parents' sexual, physical and mental abuse of them. Somehow they grow-up believing that they "earned" the abuse. I'm not sure if this stems from the feeling of being all-powerful or from the need to keep the parent in an elevated role, but it is completely erroneous.
Tinros, your mother was supposed to take care of you and give you the tools and self-confidence to go out into the world as a whole person who was capable of making good decisions. Your job was to grow-up and become that person.
An aside: because you are a good person, do treat your mom kindly; you will love yourself more for having been gentle with her.
You have made decisions regarding your life and your faith. You did not make these decisions to hurt your mother, but there are very few important decisions in life that don't require a choice to be made. You made the choice to enrich your life and that of your father; you can mourn the fact that you weren't able to make both parents happy, but never regret making the right decision for the right reason.
You sound like a strong person. Good on you for getting into OSU. The best advice I can give you is to talk to yourself as if you were talking to your best friend. Forgive yourself for making the choices you needed to make and celebrate the work you've done to get to where you are.
Remember, in the relationship between you and your mom and dad, you are the child, they are the parents. And if/when you have children of your own, you'll finally understand that a child can neither save nor end a marriage.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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LadyDove speaks the truth! One concept that has been very helpful to me in untangling my confusion over my family, is the idea of stewardship. Every choice has a natural steward (sometimes stewards) who are given the power and responsibility for that choice.
Choices over which you have stewardship (with parents' advice and guidance being taken into account) include whom you will marry, what college you go to, what profession you want to follow, how you dress and wear your hair and makeup, your personal religious beliefs, whom you choose as friends, and how you schedule your time. I found that a good strategy when I lived at home was to concede on things that didn't matter to me and absolutely hold my ground on things that mattered to me a lot.
Choices over which your parents have stewardship (taking your input into account) include how much they will spend for your college and wedding, what rules they require you to follow while you live in their house, such as whether you can bring guests home for meals prepared and paid for by them (and how much notice you must give), what times it's okay to play music others have to hear, and at what volume, the minimum grades they consider acceptable if they're going to continue paying for your college, what household tasks they need you to do in order to do your share, etc.
Once you untangle which things fall under whose stewardship, it's much easier to pick your battles and know when it's right to stand firm (in a friendly and positive way) and when you need to accept their decisions. Sometimes you do far better to lean over backwards in some ways to keep the peace. Other times, no amount of leaning over backwards helps, so it's better to just stay with a neutral position.
I personally dislike the exercise of power in personal relationships. I really don't want to have to dominate others with my will, even if it's only to enforce the requirement that I not be abused or treated with contempt. I find the use of power in personal relationships exceedingly unpleasant. To me, if I have to force you to treat me with respect and decency, then that respect is worth very little.
Unfortunately, there are some groups in which you will be bullied absolutely to the limit you allow yourself to be. Even more unfortunately, one of those groups happens to be my family. So I find that setting clear rules, such as "I refuse to be screamed at", and enforcing them by politely taking my leave whenever they're broken, is a sad necessity.
One thing that helps a whole lot is maintaining your love and sympathy with family members by rendering them loving service at every opportunity you can find. Also, it helps to remember that they are limited human beings who have been wounded in different ways. Sometimes they're acting out the failed scripts that they learned in their own childhood. Other times they are doing things that they actually know better than to do, but they might be too exhausted or weak at the moment to live up to their own standards. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for them is to refuse to be drawn into their way of acting, to do your best to be loving and gentle and to show them a better way.
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) about this or anything else, you are not responsible for anyone's choices but your own.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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at you for believing her! You are reaching adulthood, and part of that is learning to sort through the various things you are told by those around you, and deciding which ones to accept as true. You were strong enough to make the choice of religious beliefs that differ from hers -- you are strong enough to know that just because she says something is your fault doesn't make it so.
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