quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: You are disturbing BC, it makes me sad to read what you just wrote, and not hopeful for the future of this world. And no starLisa, I don't mean except for Israel. By killing more than 50 innocent Lebanese citizens today they have shown that they are just as capable as the terrorists of performing attrocities against the human race.
Oh, please. Atrocities, my butt. If Israel doesn't act, the Arabs will keep killing us. Our lives come first. We're not going to die for your nutty idea of "peace".
quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: Under no circumstance, EVER, is innocent human life to be disguarded in this way. Collateral damage is bullshit and not even close to any kind of justification. Human life is sacred, regardless of what religion you believe in, maybe one day you and everyone else involved in this conflict will realise this and this whole thing can be resolved.
Get off your high horse, kid. We're happy to live in peace. They just have to leave us the hell alone. They don't, they get hurt. It's that complicated and it's that simple.
Never did I suggest that they don't act. In fact, I agree with them attacking the bridges and Hezbollah occupied sites, but they also attacked several civilian occupied areas, like a tv station. When you kill innocent people, that is an attrocity, on both sides. If you do not think so, then your moral fiber is questionable. And this whole "our lives come first" mentality is disgusting, and really indicative of the progaganda that rules your opinions and has crushed any chance that you might approach this conflict thinking critically. And what's no "nutty" about my idea of peace. Is it "nutty" for people to not kill each other? You live in a really distorted reality. I'm not hopeful you will ever realize this.
As for your second paragraph, please refrain from making claims about my age, as you have no idea how old I am, and I certainly don't consider myself a kid. If anyone among us is acting juvenile and ignorantly, it is you. Making a claim like "they have to leave us alone" is so completely useless it blows my mind. Can you seriously pretend to be able to trace this conflict back to a first cause (and more so, a first cause that isn't your side's fault)? This whole conflict is far beyond the point where we can assign blame to one side or the other. You say they fired rockets at you. They say you killed them in bombings. You say they suicide bombed you. They say you stole their land. You say it was your first. They say it was theirs first, etc. ad nauseam.
Your attitude sickens me and makes me doubt whether there will ever be a solution to this conflict as a whole. I just hope that the next generation of Israelis (and Arabs) is not as close minded and ignorant as you are. If I was religious, I would pray for you tonight, but instead I go to bed depressed that people like you will never see the light, and continue to undermine efforts to alieviate that pain and suffering in this world with your dogmatic and shameful attitudes.
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: Do you know where this occurred? I've never heard of such a case, and it would be fairly groundbreaking with respect to self defense law.
It was Illinois actually, the precedent lead to a woman who ran over a gun wielding assailant to be charged with second degree murder, then it's ridiculousness was realized by the State Supreme court and it was tossed.
Still God help you in Illinois if like me you have military or martial arts training and defend yourself, it is appalling.
Of course I got this in a CJ course not Law School so the particulars are not first hand. Though I do remember the woman's case from the news here.
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Lisa, What's up with calling people "kid" or "child" lately?
BC, I'm just curious. Do you have examples of people in the military who do not share your political views? What do you think of them?
Angio, Some stuff it's better not to react to, if you can. Just because someone else tries to ratchet up the mud-slinging doesn't mean you have to do it back. In a way, you just end up proving their points about how reasonable it is to react in kind.
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quote:Oh, please. Atrocities, my butt. If Israel doesn't act, the Arabs will keep killing us. Our lives come first. We're not going to die for your nutty idea of "peace".
And thus there can be no peace in Israel... at least until those nutty ideas are more fully appreciated by Israelis and Palestinians. One can blame everything on the enemy as much as one wants, but in the meanwhile the war goes on - and Israel reaps whatever consequences that attitude continues to sow.
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Just a quick point... Israel doesn't often react in kind-- they usually respond with something stronger than what was done to them. To be fair, that *is* how you win battles. Whatever else may be said, Israel has had to fight for its very existence since day one of the modern state and it's hard to blame them for taking a hard line attitude.
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If Hez raids over a few of the neighboring borders, and Israel retaliates against the Hez inside all its neighbors borders, that may force those governments to rein in that extremist faction rather than provoke war with a nuclear power not afraid to use military force to defend itself.
It's like a house that has an ill-tempered Doberman in its yard, that neighbor kids throw rocks at. How many kids need to get chased or bitten before their parents tell them to stop throwing rocks? (Of course, in this day and age, the neighbor parents would have the government take the dog and put it to sleep... though the UN has seemed remarkably impotent when it comes to such matters.)
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: Mig and Morbo, you guys are confusing the Hez political and social representation with the militia. Hez is the Shiite representation of Lebanon. The UN makes a very clear distinction between the Hez. militia and the Hez. political party. The former is a terrorist group, the latter a representation of a group of lebanese individuals. And infact, the political Hez. has been working with the rest of the lebanese government to disarm the militia. one of my friends is in beirut, she wrote this on my program's forum today:
"Through Lebanon's "National Dialogue", the government had been making incremental progress towards an agreement on Hezbollah's arms. (Relatedly, the government is mandated to include all parties/sects by the Ta'if accords that ended the civil war; and many decisions are essentially done by consensus, aka each party gets a veto.) At last week's ninth national dialogue session, all participants (Christians, Druze, etc., including Hezbollah) agreed that the issue of Hezbollah's arms was to be solved in small steps... it was a huge deal that they all agreed on anything about this issue (even that the issue needed solving), and analyst-types hailed it as progress.
Besides, Hezbollah's actions against Israel were probably all mandated by Iran and Syria anyway. And they certainly knew the reaction they were going to get from Israel. Hezbollah is basically putting the country hostage for their own sectarian gains.
Where does Israel think this is going to end? Do they have an exit strategy at all, never mind one where they actually leave with more than what they arrived with?"
If lebanon did not include these people in the political process, no progress could ever be made, so your argument that they are harboring terrorists is simply wrong, since in fact they are doing everything in their power (while also trying to avoid alienating a large portion of its citizens and potential civil war) to put an end to the hez. militia and regain control of the country. Unfortunately, Israel and people like you guys don't realize that these things don't happen over night. And unlike other terrorist organizations, Hez does not receive state support from lebanon.
You make some good points, but it the idea of solving the Hez problem in small steps while permiting them to lob missles at Isreal that I find unacceptable, and that Isreal apparently also finds unacceptable. As for disarming the militia through negotiations, waiting for them to disarm voluntarily is a fool's errand. I don't think its realistic to expect the Hez to voluntarily disarm or stop attacking Isreal. Nor is it realistic that Iran will allow that to happen.
The most positive thing that can come of the current situation, other than killing every last Hez militiaman, is for the Leb gov and the people of Leb to realize that Isreal's patience has bounds.
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posted
you're right Bob, and I apologize to everyone for my harsh comments. It was late, and I was tired, and what Lisa said simply shocked me.
I do, however, maintain that there are a few people posting in this topic who really need to think hard about why they hold certain opinions so strongly. We would all be well to critically examine ours and our "adversary's" views every once in a while. I know I try to.
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: We would all be well to critically examine ours and our "adversary's" views every once in a while. I know I try to.
One of the cooler points of Ender's Game is that knowing your enemy is essential to defeating him.
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quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: Just a quick point... Israel doesn't often react in kind-- they usually respond with something stronger than what was done to them. To be fair, that *is* how you win battles. Whatever else may be said, Israel has had to fight for its very existence since day one of the modern state and it's hard to blame them for taking a hard line attitude.
Actually, Israel usually doesn't react at all. It's just that the world pays no attention when we get rockets shot into our cities and we forbear to react. When we finally do react, it's like the straw that broke the camel's back, and that's what makes the headlines.
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Lisa, What's up with calling people "kid" or "child" lately?
In the case of Pelegius, it's simply my being weary of his adolescentitis. In the case of Angio, all I have to go on is his behavior, which seems incredibly childish.
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quote:Oh, please. Atrocities, my butt. If Israel doesn't act, the Arabs will keep killing us. Our lives come first. We're not going to die for your nutty idea of "peace".
And thus there can be no peace in Israel... at least until those nutty ideas are more fully appreciated by Israelis and Palestinians. One can blame everything on the enemy as much as one wants, but in the meanwhile the war goes on - and Israel reaps whatever consequences that attitude continues to sow.
So you think we're supposed to sit there like good little martyrs and die for your concept of peace?
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Mig, if this situation isn't approached through diplomatic channels, nothing but more violence and death will result. And I never maintained that while the process of disarming Hez is undertaken that they should be allowed to continue in their terrorist attacks on Israel. I think that Israel is completely justified in attacking Hez targets, and their initial strikes were just that. However, I do not think they are justified in attacking Lebanon as a whole and acusing Lebanon of starting a war against them.
I think that the most positive thing that can come out of this situation would be for the US and the UN to realize that this is an incredible opportunity to stop Hez, secure Lebanon's soverignty, and stop Syria's and Iran's influence from causing more suffering in the middle east.
Here is a great article writen that very nicely summarises some of my main thoughts about all this
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Lisa, What's up with calling people "kid" or "child" lately?
In the case of Pelegius, it's simply my being weary of his adolescentitis. In the case of Angio, all I have to go on is his behavior, which seems incredibly childish.
Why must you undermine the discussion on this forum by making things so personal? Are we not capable of having a purely intellectual debate about this topic (I know I have been at fault in this respect in the past too, but from hence forth, I will try to take my own advice)
Though I am curious as to how exactly I am acting childish...
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quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: And this whole "our lives come first" mentality is disgusting, and really indicative of the progaganda that rules your opinions and has crushed any chance that you might approach this conflict thinking critically.
No. It stems from the fact that we have no interest in killing them, while they raise their children to dream of killing us. You think that's propaganda, but that's because your mind is utterly closed. Even Egypt, supposedly at peace with Israel, runs vicious propaganda on their state controlled television, training children in this murderous path (link). I guess it's propaganda on our side to point such things out.
We have no moral obligation to die. We let them shell us for months without doing a single thing. That kind of forbearance is insane. All it did was get them to up the violence until we couldn't forbear any more.
And therein lies the key to what's going on here. Non-violence towards the Arabs has never, ever, ever gotten them to reciprocate. Concessions to the Arabs have never, ever, ever gotten them to reciprocate. Every concession, every olive branch, has been met with heightened terror and violence.
You have nothing to say here but, "Can't we all just be friends?!" And we've tried that. They aren't interested. And you are blind to think that they are.
quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: As for your second paragraph, please refrain from making claims about my age, as you have no idea how old I am, and I certainly don't consider myself a kid.
Then stop acting like one.
quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: If anyone among us is acting juvenile and ignorantly, it is you. Making a claim like "they have to leave us alone" is so completely useless it blows my mind. Can you seriously pretend to be able to trace this conflict back to a first cause (and more so, a first cause that isn't your side's fault)?
Of course I do. And this isn't a matter of "first cause" alone. Are you so utterly blind to their intent that you can pretend that it doesn't exist? They are implacably committed to wiping Israel off the map. We are implacably committed to remaining there. Those are not mirrors of the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by Angiomorphism: This whole conflict is far beyond the point where we can assign blame to one side or the other.
No. You're unwilling to open your eyes and see that there is one party which is merely trying to live and that there is another party which wants to destroy the other. You can't go there in your mind, because it might mean that you'd have to act on it.
Your attempt to morally equate the two sides is vile and cowardly. It's shameful, but I doubt you'll ever realize how ashamed you should be.
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posted
There's no point in replying to your post. You are so set in your misguided opinions that no amount of rational discussion will ever change your mind. If you truly want to believe that all muslim children are raised to hate israel, and that all they want to do is destroy you, then that is simply your perogative. I just hope that your opinions do not represent the majority of Israeli's (and in my experience, they do not, as I have many friends from the region, and from arabic nations who simply want to live in harmony with each other and have no desire to continue this conflict).
On that note, I'm going to "peace out", unless some rational and intelligent discussion emerges in this thread.
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posted
I was preparing to answer Angiomorhism, then I read what Starlisa had to say, and, frankly, what's the point? It can't be said any better than how she laid it out. Well, done Starlisa.
I appreciate that Angiomorphism and others want peace and dread all the death and suffering (so do I), but I don't see a realistic alternative when dealing with Hez and Islamofascism.
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posted
Firstly, I know this reaction is a bit overdue to say the least. But then I don't have a steady internet uplink and therefor have to make do with any chance I get to post my replies. Secondly, I'm not completely naive. Obviously I don't think the recent hostilities are solely about the fate of the hostages. But I think it's telling that nearly all of the newsreports I see on the subject mention that I agree with the statement that Israel has a tendency to overreact. Sorry, I forgot who wrote that. But let's just say that the Israeli people have been handed a pretty expensive (and much debated) gift over 60 years ago. Ever since they have been trying to take more by show of force, whilst still complaining about the horrible treatment Jews had to endure throughout the ages since the diaspora. Sounds like hypocrisy to me.
Thirdly, some thoughts on the subject of Peace. Having never read the Koran or the Bible, I must make do with the pitiful works of mortal men in stead of relying on the words of a deity. However, it seems to me that one can only have peace if one is willing to extend it to all other people on this planet. Failing that, the only other way is to destroy all ones enemies (which amounts to the same thing in the end though calls for far more bloodshed). And having once chosen that second route, it should hardly come as a surprise that your antagonists will defend themselves with any means necessary. Basic survival-instinct, ya know...
Finally, I would like to state that calling Israel's current actions self-defense (as President Bush did during his visit to Germany) is either a blatant lie or at the very least a gross understatement. This is a good example to show why euphemisms should be avoided. I fully agree with George Carlin on that point.
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posted
They are! A good Muslim wants to Destroy all Jews, either in battle or by conversion, it is part of their doctrine. Those that do not convert after hearing the 'Word' are just being intractable and deserve death or slavery.
As for Diplomacy, haven't you learned that diplomacy is just a tactic to the Arabs? It is calling 'time out' in the middle of the fight so they can rest and recoup, re-arm and reposition, they do not deal in good faith. Arabs Lie! They Lie for sport, they Lie for the joy of fooling foreigners, they lie for political gain, they LIE! Every Delay for diplomacy threatens the lives of the captured soldiers.
It is time for Israel to use the outer cordon they have created to secure house to house inner cordon searches for their men, stop waiting for Egypt to get a deal with childish terrorist who want to be paid because they want something for all the trouble they went to. Do not give them any face, do not leave them any pride in the deed, make their shame so mortal that nobody lets his neighbor breach the peace for the generation it will take to purge them of this false belief in the invincibility of Islam.
They must be broken now since they have given us the golden opportunity, before they become as dangerous as North Korea, and as desperate.
quote:Originally posted by Eduardo St. Elmo: Ever since they have been trying to take more by show of force, whilst still complaining about the horrible treatment Jews had to endure throughout the ages since the diaspora. Sounds like hypocrisy to me.
This is a load of shit. They have given back tons of conquered land. If they were interested only in expanding their borders they'd own half of the middle east right now.
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BC, why do you speak in absolutes? You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but to lump all Muslims into one group is absurdly flawed. Do some feel, act and think the way you depict? Yes. But nowhere near all. This is true for the same reason we can't make blanket statements about all Jews, all Iranians, all North Koreans, or all Americans.
Correction, we CAN and DO make blanket statements about all these groups. But it's very rare that they're true of all the members of each group.
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Our most honest informants in Iraq lied half the time, the only kind and generous people we met were a family of Christians, the most important people we dealt with stole fuel meant for the whole town to sell on the black market, took medicine and medical supplies and sold them on the black market, took jobs as security or police and used them to committ robbery or sell weapons, the most innocent child would find a baby and wave it around swearing it was sick and demanding money, Arabs lie as a cultural trait, often and without shame. They have to grow into power to also cheat and steal.
I've mostly been trying to ignore you, as the blatant stupidity you generally express gives me a headache. However, after reading your last post, I feel that someone needs to address your continuing ignorant, racist remarks.
Terrorists are not representative of their respective cultures any more than you are representitive of the honorable members of our armed forces. Both the terrrorists, and yourself, are embarrassments to your respective countries, communities, families, and religions.
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posted
I'm half lebanese (though it was only my great grandparents who were actually born in Lebanon, not that my arabic side of the family hasn't preserved the cultural traditions that came from Lebanon - and for the record, they are xian lebanese), does that mean I lie half the time?
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Apparently I'm a liar, too. It's in my blood or something. I wonder if my pathological culturally-inherited lying is correlated with which language I'm speaking? Do I lie more when I speak Arabic or French than when I speak English? A fascinating question!
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Trust away... You know best I am sure. I can only generalize from my experience, not just with terrorist but with the everyday people you meet, while I was there.
"I wonder if my pathological culturally-inherited lying is correlated with which language I'm speaking? Do I lie more when I speak Arabic or French"
No, Arabs lie in English as proficiently as they do in Arabic.
quote:Originally posted by Eduardo St. Elmo: But let's just say that the Israeli people have been handed a pretty expensive (and much debated) gift over 60 years ago. Ever since they have been trying to take more by show of force, whilst still complaining about the horrible treatment Jews had to endure throughout the ages since the diaspora. Sounds like hypocrisy to me.
That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. We've been trying to take more by show of force? We accepted a tiny sliver of our land, chopped into three non-contiguous pieces, back in 1948. The result? The Arabs tried to annihilate us. So we wound up with one contiguous piece.
Time after time, they've attacked us. We took the Sinai in 1956, and then gave it back. We took it again in 1967, and gave it back. What kind of insane notions are going on inside of your head?
And it wasn't a "gift". That's our home, and it has been since before the first Arab came marching out of the Arabian peninsula.
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posted
Arabs aren't liars. Some are, but then again, some of any group are liars, including Jews, Americans, etc.
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quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: Arabs lie in English as proficiently as they do in Arabic.
Make sure you never believe a word of any of my posts, then. I don't imagine you do, but just a friendly heads-up. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: And I'm German and Catholic...I don't even want to get started as to what that makes me.
Pope?
Really, BC, you are doing yourself, and what's much worse, conservatives and, as others have said, your brothers in arms a tremendous disservice in this thread.
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quote:So you think we're supposed to sit there like good little martyrs and die for your concept of peace?
Israelis are dying regardless, are they not? If people are going to die, I'd rather they die in the pursuit of peace rather than in the pursuit of continuing a neverending war.
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: Israelis are dying regardless, are they not? If people are going to die, I'd rather they die in the pursuit of peace rather than in the pursuit of continuing a neverending war.
WHAT?!? What do you mean by "die in the pursuit of peace" exactly? Accept attacks from others without any kind of retaliation?! In that case, there would be no Israel at all right now.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: We took the Sinai in 1956, and then gave it back. We took it again in 1967, and gave it back.
So when they going to quit giving it back? Why is it the looser who decides the concessions.
quote:Originally posted by Corwin:
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: Israelis are dying regardless, are they not? If people are going to die, I'd rather they die in the pursuit of peace rather than in the pursuit of continuing a neverending war.
WHAT?!? What do you mean by "die in the pursuit of peace" exactly? Accept attacks from others without any kind of retaliation?! In that case, there would be no Israel at all right now.
Well said. For some reason it’s ok to attack Israel but when they defend themselves they’re the bad guys. I’m surprised they’ve put up with it for as long as they have.
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quote: I’m surprised they’ve put up with it for as long as they have.
Israel cannot stand alone against the entire region, and they are counseled by foreign powers that have no interest in being involved in WWIII.
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The IDF totally owns everyone in the area like someone playing Counterstrike with hacks. The last nation to mount a remotely serious challenge to them was Egypt in '73.
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quote: Didn’t they do just that in the Six Day War in 67?
A lot of things have changed in the last 39 years. I don't doubt that Israel can hold their own, I just don't know how long they can keep it up.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: We took the Sinai in 1956, and then gave it back. We took it again in 1967, and gave it back.
So when they going to quit giving it back? Why is it the looser who decides the concessions.
Because we have people in power in Israel who simply aren't willing to win. Look at what's happening now. Do you have any doubts that we'll be pulling back out of Gaza -- again! -- despite the insanity that doing it last year caused?
quote:Originally posted by Jay: Well said. For some reason it’s ok to attack Israel but when they defend themselves they’re the bad guys. I’m surprised they’ve put up with it for as long as they have.
There was an Israeli show that was on Broadway about 35 years ago, or so, called "To Live Another Summer, To Pass Another Winter". One of the songs on it was called "We're Sorry We Won It". The chorus went:
quote:We're sorry we won it We must have overdone it We know quite well that a Jew has his place A Jew who is a winner is a -- disgrace
Oh, please world Excuse us We're asking you for forgiveness We're awfully sorry We're sorry we won the war.
It was between 1967 and 1973, as I recall. The last verse went something like:
quote:Well, now it's done And we promise you quite truly A promise we know you will not misuse When faced with peril From prince or sheikh or cooley We promise we'll do everything to lose
And once again the world can shed its tears And cry and pray we make it out somehow You've been just wonderful to us through all these years We wouldn't want to spoil your pleasure now.
It's amazing how little changes.
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posted
I have little doubt that Israel could put quite a spanking on that entire region - whether or not that is the right thing to do, and whether or not their leadership has the will to execute such an offensive... well, that's a different story.
Whether they could hold all that territory long term? I doubt it - but they could put on a hell of a show, to the point that the region would think twice, three times, and at least a fourth time before poking them with a sharp stick again.
Not that I'm advocating that course, but they have the resources to make quite a statement.
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posted
I hope it doesn't come to that. That would be the worth case scenario for middle east stability (and therefore, economic stability in the west)
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quote: I hope it doesn't come to that. That would be the worth case scenario for middle east stability (and therefore, economic stability in the west)
Some small part of me just wants it to be over with, one way or another. I don't want a repeat of this on the news in 10 years.
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posted
Ok, so BC is completely out of lines with statements like "Arabs lie." and such. I would argue though, that there is likely something flawed about some combination of arab/muslim culture as it currently exists.
I'm not arguing that all are terrorists or even that most are terrorist sympathizers, but it seems that there are disproportionately more terrorists and powerful extremist groups spawned from this culture than just about any other. This is part of why this conflict is such a difficult situation. The culture on one side of the conflict needs to be drastically altered in order to get along with the rest of the world.
starLisa, if you want to argue that lands legally bought and lands obtained after defensive wars are legitimate claims then I am fine with that. However, if you want to argue that other lands that don't fall under that category but are still due the jews by virtue of 1000+ year old rights you're going to run into a lot of opposition from anyone else.
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