posted
I do not feel I should respect and be grateful for serving one's nation only when I agree with the specific service being rendered. With some exceptions (I'm not suggesting thanking a war criminal, for example), I believe that since soldiers almost universally never decide where they are sent, I should be thankful that they serve where they are sent, and respect them for it specifically, and acknowledge the service done for American citizens.
Part of democracy is owning up to the good and the bad our government does, to some extent. I believe only being thankful and feeling indebted to those who serve it when we agree with what exactly they did is shirking that part of democracy.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I never said I didn't respect them, and I didn't say I wasn't grateful for them volunteering to serve. And I never said I wasn't thankful.
I'm reacting to the plethora of speeches I always hear from the Preident, and for that matter, from CB, about how I personally owe them/him something for protecting my freedoms in Iraq. Frankly I'm sick of the guilt trip they keep trying to shove down my throat in an effort to choke me off from criticizing a spectacularly bungled war.
What I owe them, above and beyond any appreciation, is my service as a citizen. I pay taxes to provide them everything they need to ensure their success and safety, and I pay them respect with my voice, which I use to speak out against wasteful actions that do a disservice to the troops by spending their lives, and a disservice to the citizens by spending their tax dollars, on a war with no beneficial outcome.
I don't blame the troops for what is going on over there, I blame the fools who sent them there, I know they don't choose where they go, they just go where they are sent. But I also don't have to genuflect and kowtow before them either.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
"I believe only being thankful and feeling indebted to those who serve it when we agree with what exactly they did is shirking that part of democracy."
Rakeesh, could you explain what you said? It sounds like double-speak.
Posts: 1221 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Also, I feel very bad for your high school history teachers. You are perhaps the exemplar of why I am so uncomfortable with and mistrustful of the American military. I've known good, honest, decent servicemen, and I have known Entitlement Twats like you as well. It's sad that the respectable servicemen are quieter and less noticed, because you give them all a very bad name.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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OK, but please bear in mind I was responding to your post, not a bunch of other political speeches.
I know you never said you didn't respect them. I used that word specifically alongside gratitude.
However:
quote:So I thank you for your efforts, but I don't feel I owe you anything, and I don't think you've done anything specific for me, and I appreciate the fact that should the need arise, you would be there to fill in that post.
To me, that pretty clearly expresses a lack of gratitude. i.e. you're saying you do not feel like you owe anything (one definition of gratitude) to an American soldier serving in Iraq.
I reiterate the opinion I was expressing: one should not only be grateful for specific military service when the specific service is one that toes an individual's political line. I do not believe gratitude for service to the nation should be so random.
As for taxes, I think we can write that off so to speak as any sort of expression of gratitude. Gratitude is not, after all, expressed under duress. And while exercising your free speech is of course a sort of expression of gratitude to those who ultimately help to protect it (that qualifier put in to stave off Tom ), I do have to point out that that specific application of free speech might not be deemed very respectful.
quote:But I also don't have to genuflect and kowtow before them either.
OK, now I fully recognize that you're fired up about something completely different, not what I said at all.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hey! Long time no see. Sure, I'll take a stab at it. It's not something I've thought of much, so it's still stewing in my noggin so to speak. Please bear with me.
quote:"I believe only being thankful and feeling indebted to those who serve it when we agree with what exactly they did is shirking that part of democracy."
OK, first of all, most people would agree that American citizens should respect and be thankful for the service our military provides, correct? In a way similar to the respect and gratitude we afford firefighters, policemen, EMTs, etc. We feel this way because, like firefighters and cops, military service people will put themselves in harm's way, or at the very least risk it, on our behalf for generally poorer pay than could be had in the private sector.
Yes, I recognize that not all military service people do this for those reasons, I'm speaking generally here.
OK, given the first statement, I come to the second idea: being thankful and respectful even when the service given is not agreeable to us. We must have a military, correct? That military must not, ultimately, decide where it is sent, right? Given those two things, respecting and being thankful towards the military only when they do things you agree with is saying, "Thanks for your service. When it was service I liked, that is. Even though you did not have control over what exactly your service would be. So really, I'm more grateful the more the present powers in government agree with and answer to me. Not so much otherwise."
It would be like not being thankful for a police officer's service when the cop arrests someone for dealing pot, even if you think that shouldn't be a crime. The cops don't pick the laws, that's not what we empower them to do. We pick the laws, just like we pick where the soldiers go. Our respect and gratitude for their service should therefore not be tied to how much we think that service was good, since that's not their decision.Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I am a.. erm. serviceman I guess. Strange title.
I know quite a few idiots in the various fields, and I have got to admit in the entry ranks the ratio of idiot to non is fairly high.
It is disappointing.
And if The Apostate Devil gets onto the ballot of the Great Satan I will dribble the blood of the innocents (pencils) onto the ledger of damned souls (ballot) and set forth my damned visage to vote for him.
Or McCain.
they are both cool.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
It will assuage my white guilt too, a two for one deal...I might just register as a Democrat so I can vote agianst Hillary at least once for certain.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
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no, it just seems weird to me, since I have not been in the military for such a long time. Also, soldier tends to refer to Army.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Both my mother and mother-in-law, at different times, have stated that they don't like Obama because he's a muslim. This really bugs me, because it tells me that two completely different Christian groups are being fed this lie and are being manipulated.
You know how they say about hypnotism, that you can't be hypnotized to do something that you don't already want to do. I think there is a similar principle at play. If you want to find a reason to vote against Obama, there are going to be reasons. I imagine these same people say they were swayed by the anti-Kerry Swiftboat captains ads.
There is a large swath of America who don't particularly like gay people; who are comfortable with the quality of education and healthcare their kids are getting; are fine with the violence in Iraq or torture or the criminal system, as long as it stays in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay and away from their family and friends, respectively; and who aren't particularly keen on electing a black guy with a muslim name to the highest office in the land. These are the people who rise to a comfortable living in private industry, raise healthy good looking college bound kids, and elect presidents.
You're probably right about that, but the people I'm talking about don't fit that description, at least not in all ways. But I think that fits my original point. The people you're talking about, and those above them on the social ladder, use trickle-down hypnosis, duping the lower classes to accept their agenda through scare tactics and by twisting their belief in God.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I think we should be grateful for the services of those in the military. I also think we should be grateful for the services of all those who make sacrifices to provide the public some good - including firemen, police officers, doctors, scientists, politicians, garbage collectors, teachers, accountants, business executives, store clerks, farmers, etc. And I think our degree of gratitude should be greater for those who sacrifice more and get less personal benefit from their career. Nevertheless, all deserve gratitude, to some degree.
Additionally, to say that soldiers have earned freedom more or understand freedom better than people of these other careers is foolish. Freedom is not earned. Freedom is created through a collective effort, which requires not only fighting, but also educating, healing, producing, leading, and so on. This should be particularly evident in Iraq, where there is much fighting but not so much freedom. Jointly many different sorts of people come together to give us a free society - and so we should be grateful to all of them.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Tres: We've disagreed, oftentimes emphatically, in the past, but that was a helluva post right there. I agree, 100%. Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Choices are created by collective action, that is for certain, but the space for that action to take place in is secured by soldiers, even when it is accomplished by other means.
Nobody would pay for anything from America if they could take it instead. Our dollar would be worthless if our long term security were in question.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Nobody would pay for anything from America if they could take it instead.
I disagree almost completely. Nobody of any intelligence would take from America what they could buy. Conquering a modern nation is an idiot's game.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
And no amount of soldiers would be able to provide us with long term security without the sacrifices made by the millions of Americans to their careers at home. Without intelligence, weapons, uniforms, medicine, education, supplies, financing, etc., there can be no military victory in the modern era.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:I disagree almost completely. Nobody of any intelligence would take from America what they could buy. Conquering a modern nation is an idiot's game.
I agree, Tom. Conquering a modern nation is an idiot's game...of course, that's just a theory. It has never been tried within the past sixty years.
But I will say this: one aspect of a modern nation is a military.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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"I think we should be grateful for the services of those in the military. I also think we should be grateful for the services of all those who make sacrifices to provide the public some good..."
posted
I like Tresopax's post quite a bit. I don't personally agree with it, at least not from a limited perspective. [I agree in the broader sense, but temper that by individual expectations.]
This has to do with my (relatively recent) revelation that by expecting gratitude from people for the work I do, I put them in a very difficult place of obligation. Moreover, I put my own sense of goodwill and justice on very unstable grounds -- something that left me feeling pulled to and fro by outside forces.
I'm happy now just to do my job and take satisfaction in a job well done. This, regardless of whether it is appreciated by those I serve, is under my control.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:This has to do with my (relatively recent) revelation that by expecting gratitude from people for the work I do, I put them in a very difficult place of obligation.
I love the fact that CT saves lives. You are a special gal, not only do you heal, you do it and are careful about not putting a moral burden on the patient. You are almost too classy to be real.
I, on the other hand, have not yet matured to such a level, and would give out all manners of unsolicited advice, and not always nicely, and let them know that it is by the grace of God and these two hands that they are alive, and not through the fault of their shameful habits.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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The nation certainly protects me from the impositions of others.
But my freedom is more potently an earned quality.
My freedom of expression is directly related to my learning of the language. I am more free today than I was as a schoolboy, or as a freshman, or even as a graduate student.
One day, I opened the hood of my automobile and discovered that I was not free at all. The engine refused to recognize my mastery of english. I had money, but again the engine was indifferent. I sent the beast to a mechanic. Grubby and inarticulate, he saw immediately that I had little freedom and that I was dependent on him to get me through this terrible immobility. I bought him a case of beer as tribute and did exactly what he told me to do because I had little choice.
With my new understanding of freedom, I subjugated myself to the discipline of school once again and learned auto mechanics. I have NOT mastered this subject but at least I walk into the repair shop as a free man and converse with the mechanic as if I were his equal.
Posts: 675 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:"I think we should be grateful for the services of those in the military. I also think we should be grateful for the services of all those who make sacrifices to provide the public some good..."
Naturally.
quote:This has to do with my (relatively recent) revelation that by expecting gratitude from people for the work I do, I put them in a very difficult place of obligation. Moreover, I put my own sense of goodwill and justice on very unstable grounds -- something that left me feeling pulled to and fro by outside forces.
I agree that is best. Expecting gratitude, insisting on it, while I think it reasonable for someone who sacrifices for others to feel they have earned gratitude, demanding it is something else entirely.
This doesn't have any bearing, though, on whether or not those served should feel grateful.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
"This has to do with my (relatively recent) revelation that by expecting gratitude from people for the work I do, I put them in a very difficult place of obligation."
Expecting gratitude: Back in the late 80's and early 90s I promoted USCF bicycle races. I figured I did a great job as promoter if the 50 to 100 racers at any given event did not complain. I figured I did a fantastic job if I got a compliment or two.
That was a lesson that I still use today. If I don't get any complaints about what I'm doing, I figure I'm doing a great job. If one or two staff member compliments my work, I guess I did or am doing a fantastic job. No complaints yet this year.
But, I never expect gratitude. Most people are to insecure to compliment co-workers.
Posts: 1221 | Registered: Aug 2001
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), I do have to point out that that specific application of free speech might not be deemed very respectful.
