quote:Slavery is looming, but there was a war to wash away quite a few of the sins. I actually think it was Jim Crow and urban white flight that sealed the deal, and a civil rights movement that was started with a court decision and articulated with an Executive Order. The Supreme Court and the Executive branch aren't the most democratic of institutions, and with Nixon's very effective "Southern Strategy," Bush's timely rumor of McCain's black step child, and the neglect with which criminal justice is administered, American whites have proven time and time again that anytime they feel uncomfortable, they don't have a problem digging their heel into black necks, and this American government is organized to enable them to do so. I still think that American whites have Manifest Destiny sensibilities and had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, towards the appearance of decency. If they want to ease racial tension, whites should move back into the cities and send their kids to public schools, as a first step. Voting for Barack Obama is a cheap alternative.
See Irami, I think this is both a cheap trick and highly unproductive if we ever want to fully address and deal with racial problems. This is accusatory and extreme, it tends to lump people into groups they do not belong, and it will cause people to react negatively instead of logically because that's natural. When someone is offended like that, nothing good ever comes from it, and if your purpose was to do just that, then I believe you miss the point of what a productive and useful conversation would and should be.
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Why should I give up my beautiful house in the suburbs and send my kids to substandard schools in order to prove I am not a racist? I pay for the schools even if I don't use them.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Richardson I think is the most well rounded candidate.
I'm not convinced on that. The anger toward Richardson by the Clinton team and others will be a factor that could weigh against him.
I mean well rounded in who I think would be the best president, best able to take over if anything happened to Obama, not most electable. But even then, I think you drastically overestimate the influence of Richardson's "betrayal" of Clinton. The Clintons and the high powered people that support them might be pissed, but you really think regular Joe citizen guy won't vote for him because he BETRAYED Clinton? To assume that I think vastly overestimates the average person's interest in politics, and further, overestimates their loyalty to the sensibilities of a particular candidate. Absolutely no one is going to NOT vote for Obama because Richardson is there. Anyone who is that pissed is already pissed at Obama for "stealing" the election, Richardson will just be icing on the cake. I'm not even slightly worried about it.
Irami -
Sometimes I feel like you won't be happy until you actually get White America to approve a national referendum on a statement that says: "We hate black people."
quote:I still think that American whites have Manifest Destiny sensibilities and had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, towards the appearance of decency.
And it's statements like this that realy make no sense. I think much of America ALWAYS has to be brought along kicking and screaming, white, black, and everything in between. And who does most of that dragging? White people. White abolitionists, white elements of the Republican party in the 1850's and 60's. Whites by the hundreds of thousands who fought and died in the Civil War not just to preserve the Union but to free slaves. Whites by the millions who voted for people that passed the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. White by the millions who voted for Johnson and got the Civil Rights Act passed. White who fought to end Jim Crow, to end segregation, to elect blacks into local, state and national office.
You think all that happened in a vacuum, or that black America did it to the consternation of every white in the country? Yes, the opposition was whites, but it was progressive whites versus status quo whites, not all whites on one side and all blacks on the other. I'm not trying to say that we did it all, that's absurd. The pioneers in the black community that later became icons have earned their position in history. But they never would have gotten anywhere if not for whites. We did it together.
White America in the way you describe it doesn't exist. We aren't one solid voting bloc that thinks alike and votes alike on every issue. You're treating us the way the whites you don't like treated and treat blacks, as if they are all bad just because of what they are and the stereotypes that go with it. Maybe you should see to your own predjudices before you come after everyone else's.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Why should I give up my beautiful house in the suburbs and send my kids to substandard schools in order to prove I am not a racist? I pay for the schools even if I don't use them.
The argument (which has some merit, IMO) is that at the time of white flight, the schools weren't substandard... Except for the perception that the newly arrived African-Americans in the neighborhood were going to drag it down. Now, I think the argument goes, the only way to really fix the schools is to have folks move back in to town and thus have a real personal investment for improving schools.
For the record, you largely DON'T pay for another town's/city's schools, unless your state funds all of education.
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: For the record, you largely DON'T pay for another town's/city's schools, unless your state funds all of education.
-Bok
I thought that was the purpose of Robin Hood laws- to equalize the amount schools get. I think both states I have lived in have had laws like that.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Instead, Obama is going to spend the next eight months making white people feel like he shares their values. Now, I think he is going to lose anyway, and what's even worse is that I think he is going to lose while sucking up to "middle America." And if he wins, I'm just not convinced he isn't going take the same attitude to the white house, the attitude that threw his priest and Sam Power under a bus.
He has to make white americans feel like he shares his values. As though being black makes the effort duplicitous on his part somehow.
Okay. Seriously. Stop.
Stop.
The lens through which you interpret race relations and cultural realities is dominated by ... I don't even know what to call it. Two parts determined attempt to forever maintain race preconceptions, two parts philosophy of adamant and perpetual victimhood, one part double standard, one part assumption that whites will never be able to view blacks as equal, one part sweet&sour, and a dash of Sprite. Call it the Iramipolitan.
You need to stop trying to fit reality into your contrived and preconceived "Racial Contract" notions. The more you talk about race relations, the less you seem to know about them.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:one part assumption that whites will never be able to view blacks as equal
Actually, I do think that whites will be able to view blacks as equal. I just don't think that they will be able to view us as identical to them, which we aren't, for historical reasons. And in a panicked attempt to maintain their own financial stability, cultural sovereignty, and position of privilege in the hierarchical order, they will continue to look over their own hypocrisies, at home and abroad.
scholarette,
You can't buy your way out of civic responsibility, in military exercise or community engagement. Writing a check is qualitatively different from sending your kid to the military or the local school.
posted
You continue to perpetuate the myth that all whites view each other equally and that we view all blacks as different, but the same, and for that matter that all blacks do the same as well.
It's when you say stuff like that, that people stop taking you seriously.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Actually, I do think that whites will be able to view blacks as equal. I just don't think that they will be able to view us as identical to them, which we aren't, for historical reasons. And in a panicked attempt to maintain their own financial stability, cultural sovereignty, and position of privilege in the hierarchical order, they will continue to look passed their own hypocrisies, at home and abroad.
'Actually, I do think that whites will be able to view blacks as equals. I just think that whites will not be able to view blacks as equals.'
You have just offered, as a defense, a totally contradictory double-statement which reinforces what I'm saying about you. How can you sit there, hit the corresponding keys, look at what you wrote, and then think to yourself "Yeah. Hitting 'Add Reply' is a good idea."
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: I think that the supporters of Ron Paul are going to have a heck of a time against the never let go supporters of Hillary Clinton in the imaginary elections of 08.
I still support Ron Paul, both financially and with introducing him to people. I have no belief he could possibly win, however I think he still can have an important influence in the Republican party to become more fiscally conservative and to get away from nation building.
Here is Ron Paul talking with Iraq Lawmakers. He is always worth the watch.
There isn't much to say. I disagree. De Gustibus Non Disputatum Est.
quote:You continue to perpetuate the myth that all whites view each other equally and that we view all blacks as different, but the same, and for that matter that all blacks do the same as well.
It's when you say stuff like that, that people stop taking you seriously.
I will say that the "people" referred to in the last sentence are white people, and black people only to the extent that they are scared of the backlash from white people.
quote: This is accusatory and extreme, it tends to lump people into groups they do not belong, and it will cause people to react negatively instead of logically because that's natural.
Two things: 1) They should start learning how to suck it up. 2) "because that's natural" is hardly ever a good excuse for anything regarding human affairs.
posted
And what do you have to say about all the white people who died and/or voted to end inequality? I guess they should just learn to suck it up.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Wow, so every black person takes you seriously, unless they're scared of white people. What sad hubris.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:I will say that the "people" referred to in the last sentence are white people, and black people only to the extent that they are scared of the backlash from white people.
So every black person who doesn't think you're full of it is afraid of not fitting in?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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IMHO opinion race will become less of issue compared to class. I already see a huge disconnect between middle and lower class blacks. It's likely the same disconnect between middle class and lower class whites. Let's be realistic here, middle class white people look down on what they refer to as "white trash" the same way as middle class blacks look down on people from the ghetto.
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I can't speak for every individual, I just speak the large swaths as I see them. You can try to catch me in some logical gotcha game if that makes you feel strong, but I don't use the words "every" or "any" too casually or at all.
This comment, "I will say that the 'people' referred to in the last sentence are white people, and black people only to the extent that they are scared of the backlash from white people."
Refers directly and only to this comment:
"It's when you say stuff like that, that people stop taking you seriously."
Now, I take people seriously, even if I don't agree with them.
quote:You can try to catch me in some logical gotcha game if that makes you feel strong
You frequently make no sense and say frustratingly racist and accusatory things which are very poorly reasoned. If pointing that out to you is now magically a 'logical gotcha game' that you 'play' to 'feel strong,' then thanks for making me feel like hercules over here.
The people here who aren't me are also touching upon this point, and repeatedly pounce upon your logical errors and fallacious sociological conceptualizations, and it all bounces off of you. You move forward, intent on making statements that I can only generously describe as oblivious. You have to wake up someday and realize some things about how you let fallacy and sweeping, improvised generalizations about blacks and whites (which are ironically more racist than anything else I've even seen in this forum and many others) draw you into making stupid statements and indefensible propositions about 'how society works.'
Or you are going to continue to make no sense and really have no credibility and people will keep needling you for it and pointing out the same obvious flaws that you never correct.
Which makes it more like theatre, but c'mon.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Obama and McCain have both turned down an offer to have their townhall be on ABC. The both insist that the townhalls must be viewable on every station, the internet, and whoever else wants to show and see it.
But it's looking like they'll probably happen at some point this summer.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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You would think the GOP website would feature pictures of Mccain, but their website seems entirely devoted to smearing Obama rather than promoting their candidate:
posted
Re: Senator Obama and accepting contributions from PACs and such, I seem to recall a segment on NPR last Friday I think it was where claims made by both McCain and Obama on the subject of donors-including most of Obama's-were viewed with extreme skepticism.
We'll see how things shake out.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: but their website seems entirely devoted to smearing Obama rather than promoting their candidate
Unlike the Democrats whose webpage immediately wants your money which does seem to be very telling and appropriate. DNC Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: but their website seems entirely devoted to smearing Obama rather than promoting their candidate
Unlike the Democrats whose webpage immediately wants your money which does seem to be very telling and appropriate. DNC
Isn't it a bit misleading to link us directly to the donation page rather than the DNC home page?
The GOP home page has a page for donations and the link to it is just as prominant and just as close to the top of the home page as the one on the DNC homepage.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Hmm, yes it is....the very first time I went there I just typed in www.dnc.org and that is where I went....I will have to check into this
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I can confirm DK's experience. The first time I clicked on it, it took me to the donation page. Since then, it has been the main page.
---
The "smear the opponents" strategy didn't work for the GOP in the special elections. I don't see it working for them now. That strategy looks like it'd be playing to Sen Obama's strong points. He looks better the more people get to know him and, if Sen Clinton is actually seriously going to rally behind him, I don't think he's beatable with a primarily negative campaign.
Besides which, I just think it's wrong to do it that way. The primary focus should be building a case for your candidate. I hope that they move away from this soon. There are important points that need to be made or at least considered for Sen McCain's side. I still hope for a campaign that tries to honestly present the issues for people to choose between. (edit: An ideal campaign shouldn't end with the only real result of one side or the other winning, but rather with people coming to understand where people on the other side are coming from. There are often paths that combine the interests of the varying sides that may be as good or better than trying to pursue one side only, and even when you don't go with a compromise solution, there is value to understanding what other people are thinking. One of the reasons why I think that Barack Obama is a good candidate is that I think he understands this.)
Then again, I don't know the Sen McCain has a chance anyway, with the territory he's picked out. He's got to hope for some really good news from Iraq or really bad news from somewhere else. Without that, Sen Obama is likely to pick up the lion's share of independents and swing voters, and Sen McCain will have to play up the base, which isn't one of his strong points and is likely to hurt him even more further on.
That's the one thing I'm a little upset about. I would have liked to see a McCain campaign aimed at picking up the moderates because of the wedge it would drive between the GOP and their extreme base. It might have gone a long ways towards redeeming the party towards what I always wanted it to be.
quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: You would think the GOP website would feature pictures of Mccain, but their website seems entirely devoted to smearing Obama rather than promoting their candidate:
I (cynically) think their strategy is to get people to NOT pay attention to McCain, because if they did, they probably wouldn't like what they see.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Thanks Squicky...I was thinking it had to be cookie related or something like that. Sneaky Democrats!
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Wow, the redirect to donations page for first-time viewers just seems dumb. Is that really the very first impression they want to make on someone who's never been to their website before? A sidebar link to the donation page from the frontpage, sure. Redirecting straight to the donation page? Stupid.
quote:Wow, the redirect to donations page for first-time viewers just seems dumb. Is that really the very first impression they want to make on someone who's never been to their website before?
I think that the assumption that although this maybe a persons first visit to the website, it is unlike their first impression of the DNC.
I think most people who go to the DNC website aren't going there to decide whether or not they support the democrats.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I would be incredibly surprised if they haven't done research into new users of the DNC website, and figured that a redirection to the donations page best served their goals.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I've never been to the DNC page, and considering their low fundraising figures recently, I'm betting a ton of others haven't either, they all go to Barack Obama's website. Either way I wouldn't care, chances are if you go to the DNC website, you're probably going to donate anyway. Why else go to the DNC site and not the candidate's site?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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There was a Yahoo article yesterday saying Obama was considering Retired Generals for VP. My first thought, "Wasn't Powell a Republican?"
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Party affiliation aside, I think that Powell's been too tarnished by his role in the Bush administration to be an effective VP for Obama.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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There was a time when Powell was respected by the majority of Americans. He blew his credibility with his speech to the UN on Iraq which turned out to be a pack of lies.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I don't feel bad for Lisa. I am sure I support Ron Paul as much as she does, and I don't feel bad. Ron Paul has said over and over again that his focus/revolution is to help change the Republican Party back to it's more fiscally conservative and non interventionist roots. He is working at using his funds wisely to maximize influence.
Eat that news casters who kept focusing on his libertarian run for presidency and disbelieving him when he said he would not run third party. He's been the most honest republican candidate.
While I would have loved a Ron Paul presidency, I am happy that he is being wise about how best to influence politics and how to use his cash reserves. His book is also timely.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I find whats hes saying completely unsubstantiated by the facts, as a Canadian and a citizen of a country thats taking up the vast lions share of the rebuilding efforts in Afghanistan I know only all to well that we NEED MORE US support in Iraq not less, Afghanistan is not a write off like iraq we can accomplish something here we can do something but we can't do it forever.
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When the US is so deep in debt, why on earth should we be spending billions on any other country?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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