posted
Back in the day, Orwell pointed out that "the word 'fascism' has now lost all meaning except to indicate that the speaker opposes whatever is so described". (I paraphrase from memory, and suspect Orwell put it rather more pithily.) Today, I suspect he would say something rather similar about 'terrorism'; terrorism has come to mean "violence of which the speaker disapproves".
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: God also holds man responsible if he fails to render justice. That is part of the duty appointed to governments. If a society fails to see that justice is done, then that whole society becomes unjust, and therefore is condemned itself.
Contrary to what you imply, rendering justice is not vengeance. Rendering justice is fulfilling what Justice requires. And God has told us what Justice is. He wrote it down on tables of stone with His own finger.
Sure if men do not concern themselves with justice, then the entire society collapses.
Last I checked the Ten Commandments say what you should and should not do, it does not apportion the appropriate response to breaches of protocol. It was also never designed as a comprehensive outline of all that ought to be done. Where are the bits about taking care of the poor? Or defending the helpless? Where are the rules against prejudice? Its convenient to say the 10 commandments have got it all, but they don't.
They're not in the 10 commandments, but they are in the rest of the Bible...
Right but remember Ron made the statement that God "...wrote it down on tables of stone with His own finger." Clearly a 10 commandments reference.
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posted
The point is that there is an objective standard by which all other laws and systems of morality are to be measured. It is not dependent on human notions of righteousness. By this ultimate standard, all humans and human cultures will be judged by God.
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posted
I feel like we could learn a lot more valuable information about the mindset of homegrown terrorists in general if we try and study him. I'm not sure if any of that will be done in gitmo.
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quote:The point is that there is an objective standard by which all other laws and systems of morality are to be measured. It is not dependent on human notions of righteousness.
It may be worth pointing out - taking your premises as true for the sake of argument - that you are not the one who does this measuring.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: ... I know other cultural groups that have had the same "cultural ill" argument leveled against them, and it never really pans out.
Really? Why not? Would it not be reasonable say that many cultures at one point or another had a cultural ill in the form of their promotion of slavery? Or how about the mistreatment of women?
To be even-handed, here's an example about Chinese culture written by a Chinese author.
quote:Lu Xun, China’s most revered modern writer, was a student of medicine in 1906 when he saw a lantern slide of Japanese soldiers decapitating a Chinese prisoner. It was a particularly low moment in China’s national self-esteem, and what appalled Lu Xun most was the passivity of the Chinese spectators. ... His later work abounded in such pitiless depictions, inaugurating a modern Chinese literature marked by what the critic C.T. Hsia called “an obsessive concern with China as a nation afflicted with a spiritual disease and therefore unable to strengthen itself or change its set ways of inhumanity.”
posted
Oh, boy. Well, that'll certainly shut up your critics. A devastating counter! I'm mortified; I admit my error; your arguments are correct in every particular. Also, deleting posts and then reposting them to make replies go out-of-context is a nitwit idea.
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posted
Just so everyone knows (since Ron has selectively deleted and reposted himself at least twice now)
here is the original progression of the two last posts.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Has anyone else noticed that Hasan looks a little like Arnold Vosloo, the actor who played Imhotep in the 1999 movie, The Mummy?
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Oh, boy. Well, that'll certainly shut up your critics. A devastating counter! I'm mortified; I admit my error; your arguments are correct in every particular.
Then after the first incident, KoM amended:
quote:Also, deleting posts and then reposting them to make replies go out-of-context is a nitwit idea.
Ron keeps abusing the post deletion mechanism to pull his post below KoM's.
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quote:On his radio show today Rush Limbaugh blamed the Ft. Hood shooting where 13 soldiers were killed on President Obama. Limbaugh said, "We could almost say this is Obama's fault, because this guy said that he believed Obama was going to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan."
posted
I'm glad to hear all your friends are ok Hobbes. I worried when I heard that one of the soldiers killed had chosen to join the army instead of going on a mission. It's been a rough time for everyone on the base!
And, in somewhat black humor, I did notice the same resemblance that Rob pointed out.
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posted
Man, that is positively Orwellian of him (Limbaugh). I don't listen to his show, but knowing his politics I'd be surprised if he hadn't been against getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan-now when someone is mad Obama doesn't, their response is his fault.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
More reasons why Rush is an idiot, any bets on how long before Ron mimics this and puts the blame on our alledgedly illigitimate president?
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posted
Sam, I honestly thought you were replying to the post before mine. I could see no logical connection between your post and mine.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Sam, I honestly thought you were replying to the post before mine. I could see no logical connection between your post and mine.
Here's the connection:
You delete your posts and repost them to mix up the order of posting and replies when you get salty about someone's reply to you.
Don't do it.
You're being a massive tool.
In the meantime, guys, be sure to quote Ron in your replies to him so he can't pull this weasel B.S.!
thanks for your time!
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posted
Sam, I did not delete and repost my post for any reason other than the one I gave. I saw no logical connection between my post and yours. I was introducing an entirely new subject. Is your brain always this messed up?
I do not consider anything you say to be of any particular importance, since the quality of your reasoning is so poor. Frequently I just choose to ignore you. That was the case here. I introduced a new subject. I was not participating in any imagined dialog with you at all.
Next time you want to address some snarky comment of yours to me, it would help if you used my name.
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quote:Sam, I did not delete and repost my post for any reason other than the one I gave.
Your given 'reason' makes no sense because it wasn't my post you threw out of order, it was King of Men's. And you did it twice, even after he reposted his again to make it adamantly clear that it was you he was replying to.
Don't try to BS your way out of this. Just don't delete and repost to throw post order out of whack.
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posted
Sam, if it was King of Men who was making the non-sequitor comment, how do you know it was addressed to me? And why do YOU care, and make so much noise about it? Let KOM explain how his post was related to mine. You ought to mind your own business.
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posted
Well, it doesn't look to me as though you need any particular help in making yourself look like an idiot, but since you ask so nicely, sure. Why did you delete and re-post your comment, twice, so as to place it after mine? Especially when I edited my response to make it clear it was a reply to you? And why did you, when called on it, begin talking about Samprimary, whose post your mad d1337ing skillz did nothing to move around?
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posted
Does it really matter? Hatrack's a great place and all, but how much does it really matter if someone is messing with their posts? For that matter, why bother to do it?
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posted
KOM, since I was introducing an entirely new subject with no relation to anything that had been discussed previously, I saw no way your post could possibly have anything to do with my post. I assumed you were reacting to something someone else, maybe Mucus, said earlier. I was merely trying to get out of the way to avoid confusion, because you had not made it clear whom you were addressing. Pardon me for being considerate.
You would look a lot less like a fool if you would mention the name of the person you are addressing, like I always do.
Oh, as for why the second delete and repost--the board was really slow. I had to wait for ten minutes, and never did get returned to the board. When I came out and back in, I saw my post was still there, between Mucus' post and yours, KOM, so I assumed my delete had not gone through. So I tried again.
You guys (speaking of Sam and KOM and a few others) and your silly debate tantrums really do not impress me, and I usually just ignore your silliness. If you think what you say is so important that anything anyone else says just has to be related to it, then you are entirely too ego-centric for your own good.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I saw no way your post could possibly have anything to do with my post.
The KoM comment made perfect sense in the context of your own. If you couldn't figure that out, it's yet another argument about why you shouldn't try to be 'considerate' by deleting and reposting, because you can't be reliably assumed to be able to make those distinctions. Especially when you can't get who was involved straight immediately after the fact.
posted
All presidents get blame and/or credit for what happens under their watch. Bush is still getting blame from this president.
We forgot the lessons learned from 911...we were wrong to view Islamist Jihad as an individual criminal situation. Under the current administration, we've returned to that mentality. The "Global War on Terror" is now an "Overseas Contingency Operation"..."Acts of Terror" are now "Man Made Disasters". GITMO detainees are no longer enemy combatants, they have civil rights. I'm glad to see you are calling the fort hood massacre a "home grown" problem...perhaps soon Americans will realize we have Jihadist's living within our borders, some American citizens. They don't need to be imported, they are fashioned in mosques within our borders. Stop the denial. How many synagogues, recruiting stations and military bases have to be attacked in the US in one year for us to accept the fact that they are among us? They are acting as individuals in a common movement. Islamic terror is real and within our borders. If he had wounded 40 and killed 14 (counting the unborn baby) at a mall instead of a military base, it would unquestionably be considered terrorism. Instead, like the DC sniper, just another follower of Islam who happens to be crazy, acting on his own.
What do they need, an Al Quaida membership card? It's a system of belief, not an organization. There are no generals or countries, only Allah. It will come to a head and our nation will have to weigh religious freedom against national defense. Still waiting for the "mainstream" practitioners of this "religion of peace" to speak out. The longer I wait, the more my objectivity of this religion erodes. Have we ever had a Hindu cell, a Budhist shooter or a Mormon bomber? Political correctness is costing American lives.
posted
the term "Man Made Disaster" is the white house washing machine (read: department of misinformation and propaganda) on full spin cycle. i wonder if they will rewrite the history books to say timothy mcveigh wasnt a terrorist.
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quote:If he had wounded 40 and killed 14 (counting the unborn baby) at a mall instead of a military base, it would unquestionably be considered terrorism.
Well, yes. And if the people we were fighting had worn uniforms, we wouldn't be able to call them "enemy combatants." That's sort of how it works.
quote:It will come to a head and our nation will have to weigh religious freedom against national defense.
Let me go on the record as saying that if religious freedom does not win, the terrorists did.
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posted
If we surrender our principles in exchange for safety I don't see what is left in this country that's worth fighting for.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: We forgot the lessons learned from 911...we were wrong to view Islamist Jihad as an individual criminal situation. Under the current administration, we've returned to that mentality. The "Global War on Terror" is now an "Overseas Contingency Operation"..."Acts of Terror" are now "Man Made Disasters". GITMO detainees are no longer enemy combatants, they have civil rights. I'm glad to see you are calling the fort hood massacre a "home grown" problem...perhaps soon Americans will realize we have Jihadist's living within our borders, some American citizens. They don't need to be imported, they are fashioned in mosques within our borders. Stop the denial. How many synagogues, recruiting stations and military bases have to be attacked in the US in one year for us to accept the fact that they are among us? They are acting as individuals in a common movement. Islamic terror is real and within our borders. If he had wounded 40 and killed 14 (counting the unborn baby) at a mall instead of a military base, it would unquestionably be considered terrorism. Instead, like the DC sniper, just another follower of Islam who happens to be crazy, acting on his own.
Ah, the delicious unintentional irony.
"You people are forgetting the lessons of 9/11. Instead, you should emulating the last administration, whose response was in no way counter productive and sure didn't do far more damage to the nation or cost more American lives than 9/11 did."
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posted
This conversation is a bit silly without a real policy manifestation that should come out of it. What are we really arguing, that Muslims are terrorists? Some of them are, yes. Are all Muslim terrorists? Well, if you think so, are you suggesting we expel them, put them in internment camps? Deprive them of citizenship, or the rights afforded American citizens? If you are, do so, and then we can begin productive discussion.
If you aren't, and you have no policy measures to suggest, then it sounds like you're either okay with letting a terrorist nation live among you, or you don't really believe they're all terrorists or support terror - you're just fearful and angry - responses I wouldn't say are inappropriate.
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posted
Not really, it is entirely possible that Islam, like many other religions or institutions, *is* a cultural ill that leads its adherents to greater levels of violence or blind submission to orders.
This is not necessarily contradictory to the possibility that a system of religious freedom and free religious debate is still the best way of dealing with the problem.
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posted
I heard on NPR this morning that the guy was quite likely psychotic, as I suspected. I think the whole Islam thing is a red-herring.
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posted
On a completely separate note, does anyone else see Ford Hood Shooting on the thread title and think of some guy with his rifle propped up on the bonnet of his Taurus having a snipefest?
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quote:I heard on NPR this morning that the guy was quite likely psychotic, as I suspected. I think the whole Islam thing is a red-herring.
I wouldn't say it's a red herring. My brother is a schizophrenic and has gone through a couple psychotic breaks in his life; each of them has been associated with some form of delusional religious conversion. I think psychosis makes you very vulnerable to certain forms of religious passion, and vice versa.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: This conversation is a bit silly without a real policy manifestation that should come out of it. What are we really arguing, that Muslims are terrorists? Some of them are, yes. Are all Muslim terrorists? Well, if you think so, are you suggesting we expel them, put them in internment camps? Deprive them of citizenship, or the rights afforded American citizens? If you are, do so, and then we can begin productive discussion.
If you aren't, and you have no policy measures to suggest, then it sounds like you're either okay with letting a terrorist nation live among you, or you don't really believe they're all terrorists or support terror - you're just fearful and angry - responses I wouldn't say are inappropriate.
Most are not terrorists but few speak against it. One thing is certain, with them comes violence and a desire to impose Sharia. Will there be a breaking point? 1% of millions is a formidable force. In the future if 5% are hostile, should we expell them all. 10%? 20%? What happened to Lebanon, will happen to Germany and eventually America and the rest of the world. Lebanon was the shining example of peaceful coexistence of religions and quickly becoming the banking center of the middle east. Until of course, Islam became the majority. They live in peace until their numbers are significant.
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Burke
This is actually erroneous, Burke never actually said this.
Just reference Boondock Saints. That's the first place I remember hearing it. Burke has plenty of good lines.
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Let me go on the record as saying that if religious freedom does not win, the terrorists did.
QFT.
Those who sacrifice liberty in order to acquire a little temporary safety...
QFT indeed.
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: stay classy limbaugh
quote:On his radio show today Rush Limbaugh blamed the Ft. Hood shooting where 13 soldiers were killed on President Obama. Limbaugh said, "We could almost say this is Obama's fault, because this guy said that he believed Obama was going to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan."
If anyone thought Obama was going to get us out of Afghanistan, they weren't paying any attention at all. Not only did he never pledge to do so, he pledged to get us MORE involved in Afghanistan.
No president is responsible for someone totally disregarding what they're saying and then acting on their own misunderstood logic.
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quote:Sharia will eventually be imposed via the ballot box
As if you hadn't already gone well off the reservation. By the ballot box? Muslims comprise roughly three percent of British population. 3%Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Assuming that is accurate, combining the article would give even less, roughly 0.03*0.4*100 => 1.2% of the population.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Most are not terrorists but few speak against it.
Once again, malanthrop, you are not dealing with reality.
"MPAC and the Muslim American community unequivocally condemn this heinous incident. We share the sentiment of our President, who called the Fort Hood attack "a horrific outburst of violence." We are in contact with law enforcement and US federal government officials to gain more facts from this tragic incident and work together in dealing its aftermath.
"Our entire organization extends its heartfelt condolences to the families of those killed as well as to those wounded and their loved ones," said Salam Al-Marayati, Executive Director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council. We stand in solidarity with law enforcement and the US military to maintain the safety and security of all Americans.
MPAC reaffirms its call to all members of American Muslim communities to be in contact with local law enforcement for the safety and security of their communities and their institutions."
"(Washington, DC, Nov. 5, 2009) The Islamic Society of North America condemns in the strongest terms the attack on soldiers at Fort Hood, resulting in the murder of at least a dozen soldiers and the wounding of many others. We express our deepest condolences to the victims and their families.
Although many details of the shooting are unknown at this time, it appears that the attack was led by a career soldier, Major Nidal Malik Hasan. The soldier who led this attack was either mentally unstable, or was motivated by a perverted ideology for which there can be no justification.
ISNA is proud of the many Muslim men and women who serve loyally in the United States military. We are grateful for the sacrifices made by all US soldiers, who represent the religious, racial and ethnic diversity of America, to defend the Constitution and our national security. ISNA, a faith endorser of US Muslim military chaplains, is proud of the service they provide, offering comfort and support to people of all faiths and beliefs. Just today, ISNA's chaplain endorser, Dr. Louay Safi, conducted a workshop at the US army base in Fort Bliss, Texas."
"In a statement, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said:
“We condemn this cowardly attack in the strongest terms possible and ask that the perpetrators be punished to the full extent of the law. No religious or political ideology could ever justify or excuse such wanton and indiscriminate violence. The attack was particularly heinous in that it targeted the all-volunteer army that protects our nation. American Muslims stand with our fellow citizens in offering both prayers for the victims and sincere condolences to the families of those killed or injured.”
Along with innumerable condemnations of terror, CAIR has in the past launched an online anti-terror petition drive called “Not in the Name of Islam,” initiated a television public service announcement (PSA) campaign against religious extremism and coordinated a “fatwa,” or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism. "
"The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) announced Monday, November 9, the launching of a special fund, The Ft Hood Family Fund, for the benefit of the families of the Ft Hood victims in collaboration with various national Muslim and interfaith organizations. "
posted
kmbboots, I applaud your efforts but I did the exact same thing for malanthrop a few months ago, for a statement of his that was very similar. It clearly did not sink in.
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posted
Yeah. I have little hope of getting through to malanthrop, but at least that lie won't go unchallenged.
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