quote:Originally posted by daventor: So, um, Tom, you think the Tea Party movement (besides venting their ethnic/class insecurities at the diminishing WASP influence) might actually be concerned about constitutional limits on government and a rapidly growing national debt like they say? Cause to me those sound like legitimate causes for concern. I haven't been to a Tea Party meeting yet and wasn't really planning to but all these condescending "stupid Tea Partiers" statements I've been seeing/hearing from people lately is doing more than anything else to make me want to get involved with them.
Where were they when the government started warrant-less wiretapping, imprisoning without trial (of course they weren't, for the most part, doing that to white people) spending obscene amounts of money on a needless war and giving the wealthy tax cuts instead of paying down the debt when it would have made economic sense to do so?
Their concern for those things would have been considerably more credible had they started protesting 7 or 8 years.
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For that matter, since many of those issues haven't gone away, where are they on those issues now?
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Actually the most recent spurt of Trolls helped me discover what I found untrustworthy in the TEA party movement.
They came to fame during this past years health care debate, where they yelled, screamed, and rudely forced their opinions at public meetings, screaming down others and creating placards and web-sites calling President Obama and others everything from Nazi's to Baby Killers, to base liars.
Then when someone else calls them wing-nuts or even right-wing, they go all "oh, poor me. They are calling me names. I am the victim here, help me."
This self-victimization and crude hypocrisy is just a very big bit of garbage to swallow. Do they have real complaints? I can't tell because of all the PR Pranks, shallow slogans, and cry-baby whimpering that they are doing.
After they call someone a Nazi and a Baby-Killer I find it hard to believe much else of what they are saying.
Finally is their response to more concrete criticism. When its pointed out the taxes have dropped for 90% of the population under President Obama, the response I hear reported from various news sources is.."I don't believe it."
No counter argument.
Just a refusal to believe anything that proves them wrong.
On a local station they were talking to the Tea Party inspired Republican running for office. He was rabidly against health care because it took away our rights.
When asked, "What rights does it take away." he paused. I was expecting a reasoned argument about forcing people to buy a product.
nope.
"By itself it doesn't take away any rights. But if it passes, the next thing the Democrats will do is pass the public option. This public option will slowly destroy the current insurance system, forcing us all to by into the public option. This will destroy our right to choose our own health care."
He was fighting health care law because--it might lead to something else that might cause us to have to buy health care from the government and that might limit our choices? How can you claim "If A then D" when what you really mean is "If A then maybe B which may lead to C which can cause D."
basically what I'm saying is that my trouble with the TEA Party is not their politics but their double talk and hypocrisy.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jenos: I'm leery about the tea partier's who claim to be against stuff like the growing debt. I don't intend this remark to be inflammatory, but how many tea party members know the difference between debt and deficit? I'm not trying to imply that tea party members are stupider than others, but my purpose is to question the idea that the average person can even have a weak grasp of public policy. I have spent(and plan on spending) many years studying public policy and economics, learning from trained experts, and getting a degree. Is it feasible that the average person can simply get up and understand what exactly is happening with federal spending?
I ask this because I saw this happen a lot with the health care debates - there were thousands of people protesting the issue without even understanding the basics of insurance policy and economics. I don't pretend to fully understand it either, but I'm not about to get up and take a stand given that I recognize my shortcomings.
Am I simply stupid to require years of learning to understand whats really going on with these issues? Or is it that when most people protest they aren't protesting the actual policy issues, but rather finding solidarity in a group and simply going along with the flow?
Statistics that quote things like debt, defecit and the popular, "percentage of GDP" mean nothing to most people.
The tea party movement arose during a time of unprecedented debts and deficits. I'm as right wing as you can get and I can tell the difference between an annual debt and a total debt. An African American Tea Party member was beaten by SEIU thugs and there was no Al Sharpton to the rescue. The Tea Party isn't racist but it is politically beneficial to brand them as such. There are racist tea party members and racist liberal democrats. If the media can capture a video of one racist at a Tea Party Rally, it'll be all over the news to prove conservatives are racist. 95% of African Americans voting for the African American candidate isn't considered racism. I guarantee if 95% of white people voted against Obama, he wouldn't be president and they would be called racist. White people elected Obama and the Conservative African American Tea Party member who got a beat down has no Al Sharpton outrage.
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Interesting. I've heard many Tea Party Supporters and Tea Party Members calling President Obama and the "Entire Liberal Elite" racist or reverse racist, but maybe one or two liberal groups referring to the Tea Party as a racist group.
The Tea Party people keep saying, "its only a rare number of our members who actually are racists, and we try to get rid of them once they show their true selves" yet it only takes one or two folks claiming that the Tea Party is racist before the entire media and Democratic Party are smeared with the claim that they are trying to smear the Tea Party.
The Tea Party attacked political debates with yells and rude behavior, but then keep going back to the "we're being victimized" cry when ever anyone disagrees with them.
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I imagine the first legal Mexican who is asked for proof of citizenship will be filing the first lawsuit.
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I still wonder how easy it would be for cops to tell the difference between illegal immigrants and tourists (who wouldn't have immigration papers either). I don't think the US even stamps my passport on the way across. Perhaps a state to avoid for Canadians on travel.
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Not really, from what I understand, there are many mainland Chinese illegal immigrants going through Arizona which could be confused with Chinese Canadian tourists.
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Canadians may not get their passports stamped; people going through immigration control at the airport do.
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I'm not sure how that helps (also, when travelling, one might leave their passport in the hotel safe as well making the situation even worse. Could be quite a hassle)
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Aren't you required to carry your passport with you, when in a foreign country? Otherwise, it is much less satisfying for Immigration Officers to say, "Your papers, please!"
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Honestly, unless you are driving a vehicle, I can't see any situation where you'd be required to carry ID, let alone proof of citizenship.
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Though Lord knows the cops back home tried to claim it was required by law. *sigh* Got to love small town cops with nothing better to do.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:I don't think the Canadian tourists need to worry unless they are well-tanned.
Yes, because all Canadians are white.
While it can be super fun to get a good case of righteous indignation going, the point is that this isn't tourist profiling, it's Mexican profiling. Nobody needs to worry because they're from another contry, they just need to worry if they look Mexican.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Which some Canadians do, because they're Mexican. I used to know a bunch of Mexican, Columbian, Cuban etc... Canadians. Mostly brown, some with accents. Some of whom might have gone on vacation to Arizona, but now, I guess, won't be able to.
ETA - Mucas, of course. But I was replying specifically to MightyCow's 'No need to worry unless they're Mexican' statement. Obviously, being Asian could be an issue too.
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I have to admit, it's a bit odd to see you getting on someone else's case for being unduly righteously indignant, MightyCow:)
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I have to admit, it's a bit odd to see you getting on someone else's case for being unduly righteously indignant, MightyCow:)
I guess I should be flattered that you've lately taken to stalking me, just to make inane insults in response to my posts, but honestly it's kind of creepy.
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Well, you must be stalking an awful lot of people on Hatrack if that's your definition of the word.
As for whether or not I'm really stalking you...
Aside from today, the last time I even spoke to you was nearly a week ago, rejecting the notion that you 'don't have a problem' with people praying. If you're of like mind with King of Men, and if you're not you only have yourself to blame if people think so, then you most certainly do have a problem with people praying.
In the past ten posts I've made here, over a period of six days, two or three have been to or about you. One was expressing amusement at your rejection of righteous indignation when it's clear you enjoy it too, another was in response to a pretty pointed yet unsubstantiated insult ('the irony is so thick...'), and the third was the one I described above.
So, like I said, if that's stalking...
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Don't let actual facts stop you from thinking that, MC. Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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It just struck me what I dislike about this law.
Its not the Racist/Profiling/boo-hoo its gonna hurt the Hispanic community that has gotten all the attention. We already have Conservative AM Radio defending all of that, and calling it bogus as loudly as they can scream.
Its the simple anti-American thing--Innocent Until Proven Guilty.
Those the police suspect are being forced to prove their innocents. The police don't have to prove that anyone is guilty, but those questioned must prove that they are innocent.
That goes against the most basic fiber of our judicial system, and it is on those grounds I expect this law will be taken to court.
You have the constitutional right not to incriminate yourself. Does refusing to show your "papers" equal a refusal to incriminate yourself?
Some argue that if you do not have papers then you are not a citizen then you do not have rights. That is a very narrow definition of inalienable rights. But if you are a citizen must you legally present papers that prove your innocents?
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