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Author Topic: Arizona and a licence to descriminate
scholarette
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Does it seriously disturb anyone else to hear about how we can bring over people to cut our yards, pick our fruit and do the crap jobs no one but the desperate would do, yet still not view them as real people, deserving of more to life than picking fruit? Its like we are discussing renting robots or something, not human beings.

All the poor people all around the earth are also deserving of a better live, but that doesn't mean we should let them immigrate to the United States.
Yes, we can not help all the poor people, but that doesn't making coldly exploiting them somehow acceptable.
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Bella Bee
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This thread amuses me, because almost every single illegal immigrant I know over here is a US citizen. They're all working without a visa and not paying any tax.

And guess what? Most of them are doing jobs that the locals won't do, in order to stay under the radar.
The world would be a better place if we could all work in the places we feel we need to be in.

And before he starts complaining about other people's English, Contents should probably learn the difference between 'life' and 'live'.

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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Does it seriously disturb anyone else to hear about how we can bring over people to cut our yards, pick our fruit and do the crap jobs no one but the desperate would do, yet still not view them as real people, deserving of more to life than picking fruit? Its like we are discussing renting robots or something, not human beings.

All the poor people all around the earth are also deserving of a better live, but that doesn't mean we should let them immigrate to the United States.
Yes, we can not help all the poor people, but that doesn't making coldly exploiting them somehow acceptable.
It is the same "exploitation" that liberal Canada does -- an employee worker relationship that's mutually beneficial. But thanks for confirming my point that anything other than granting citizenship to hispanic illegals is racist/bad/unthinkable.
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scholarette
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I did not say give all Mexicans citizenship. I said bringing them to the promised land, giving them crap jobs and then sending them back when we are done with them is wrong. And whether Canada does it or not doesn't really determine right or wrong for me.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by Bella Bee:
This thread amuses me, because almost every single illegal immigrant I know over here is a US citizen. They're all working without a visa and not paying any tax.

And guess what? Most of them are doing jobs that the locals won't do, in order to stay under the radar.
The world would be a better place if we could all work in the places we feel we need to be in.

And before he starts complaining about other people's English, Contents should probably learn the difference between 'life' and 'live'.

I'm a horrible speller, and I wouldn't so rude as to complain about anyone's English to their face. In any case, what country are you talking about?
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
I did not say give all Mexicans citizenship. I said bringing them to the promised land, giving them crap jobs and then sending them back when we are done with them is wrong. And whether Canada does it or not doesn't really determine right or wrong for me.

But that is the only solution you're basically offering. Unless you're also open massively to reducing immigration from Mexico period. Then we wouldn't have to device a worker program.

If not, then the only solution you're offering is endless immigration from Mexico. (i.e, illegals get here and can't be kicked out because that would be bad/racist.)

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TomDavidson
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quote:
My definition of racism is treating an individual wrongly merely on the basis of his race.
Ah. Wrongly.
There's a significant amount of leeway there, I'd imagine. You can't be a racist jerk, because you're right. [Wink]

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Bella Bee
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quote:
I wouldn't be so rude as to complain about anyone's English to their face.
Oh, good. [Smile]

I live in Spain. (Rivka is right - I'm an immigrant too - legally.)

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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by Bella Bee:
quote:
I wouldn't be so rude as to complain about anyone's English to their face.
Oh, good. [Smile]

I live in Spain. (Rivka is right - I'm an immigrant too - legally.)

Bella, American illegal immigration to Spain is nowhere near as much of a problem as Mexican immigration is to the United States.
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rivka
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Oops. Thought I deleted that fast enough. [Wink]

(Bella's responding to me saying that she's from the UK.)

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Bella Bee
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quote:
American illegal immigration to Spain is nowhere near as much of a problem as Mexican immigration is to the United States
Not suggesting that it is. Just... ironic, I guess. The point is that the more borders we put up, the more hurdles we all have to jump, the more illegal immigrants we make of ourselves.
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scholarette
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So, the only two possible solutions are unrestricted immigration or a temporary worker program with no end goal of citizenship? Wow, what a limited imagination you have.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
So, the only two possible solutions are unrestricted immigration or a temporary worker program with no end goal of citizenship? Wow, what a limited imagination you have.

What do you suggest?

Ending illegal immigration from Mexico = bad/racist

Setting up the same worker programs as liberal canada in regards to Mexico = bad/racist/horrible.

Endless immigration from Mexico = ???????

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scholarette
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Amnesty programs with specific requirements (learning Enlgish, no criminal records, etc), worker programs with a path to citizenship attached, reasonable limitations on the immigration policies (so increased but not endless). Deportation is not in itself racist- though the racial profiling that is used in the process often is.
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Amnesty programs with specific requirements (learning Enlgish, no criminal records, etc), worker programs with a path to citizenship attached, reasonable limitations on the immigration policies (so increased but not endless). Deportation is not in itself racist- though the racial profiling that is used in the process often is.

Amnesty rewards illegal behavior. It's a nonstarter.

Would these worker programs also apply to immigrants from all over the world or would they be special ones created for Mexicans? Are Mexicans to be privileged over other immigrants/potential workers merely because they're across the border? What should be done about further illegal immigration from Mexico? If someone immigrates here illegally and fathers a child or gives birth to one should that fact allow them to stay? And so on.

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scholarette
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Our immigration policy is different already for every country. Being our neighbor already changes how we define our policy towards them.

I would say that Amnesty allows illegal behavior to be a redeemable offense (the specific requirements would redeem the initial illegal behavior), which is fine for me. Just because it is a nonstarter for you, does not make it an actual nonstarter.

Further illegal immigration would be dealt with with deportation, just not deportation based on racist raid policy that sweep up all the brown folks.

Keep in mind, I have yet to be convinced that the illegal immigration at the current levels does any harm. Most economist argue that even subtracting costs of services, the illegals more than pay for themselves. So, there is no current problem to be solved. Should these policies result in negatives to our economy, then I would look at fiddling with the numbers to find the right balance.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
The economy needs workers. Those workers do not have to be immigrants. As I mentioned already, Canada imports workers from Asia to do jobs Canadians won't do, without promising those workers citizenship. They have to return to their country of origin after a certain time. Why can't we do the same? It isn't necessary or inevitable for Hispanics who want to work in the U.S to be immigrants.
I don't know enough about Canadian immigration to reference it here, and I suspect you don't either. What I do know, however, is that the 'solution' you're offering does nothing for the economic problem: Americans like illegal immigrant labor. We usually don't like it so much when we're presented with one end of the situation, the illegal immigrant, but we love love love the other end, very cheap goods and services. Under your solution, this benefit would quickly evaporate...which is why it will never be seriously supported by conservatives or liberals, among other reasons. Or why it wouldn't last long if, miracle of miracles, it did.

quote:
Birthright citizenship would apply to legal immigrants and citizens. Hispanics use babies as anchors in order to get legal status. In any case, the problem of "anchor babies" would be solved, if we standardize and enlarge the program of temporary workers from Mexico, by discriminating against Hispanic females of a certain age and the same for males.
Dude, I don't care what their mothers are using them for. This is the United States. We're not supposed to say, "Screw you because of who your parents are."

quote:

That demand can be satisfied, as mentioned, by enlarging the temporary worker program and making every would be Mexican worker go through it. If they don't accept the wages/conditions that American companies offer, they can just stay home. We would get the same benefits as now. But no, it would be racist to do anything other than reward Hispanic illegals with citizenship.

Well, OK, now I know you're a troll and full of crap, and probably Clive Candy too, so I'ma bow out: obviously legal American wages and conditions would not be objectionable to Mexicans.
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Kwea
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Unimpressive human capitol? If that were the standard for being an American, I am fairly sure clive/cup/whatever-next-weeks-name-will-be would be among the first to be deported.

Which is the only argument FOR it that makes sense. [Wink]


Most liberals have issues with deportation because it is economically disastrous, both from an enforcement standpoint and a cultural standpoint. Do you have any idea how many ARE deported per year? I doubt it...that would mean you actually researched FACTS. LOL

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scholarette
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I'm going to work so I'm pretty much done with this thread.
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Darth_Mauve
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Oh, a quick comment on the "Root for Mexico instead of the US during World Cup Soccer" complaint.

Yeah, that's something only Mexican immigrants would do.

Oh, one of my wife's Grandmothers immigrated from Britain after WWII (with a new German born US GI husband.) She is still a Manchester United fan and would definitely cheer for them over any US team if we ever competed.

Her other grandmother was born in Italy. They lived in the Italian section of St. Louis (called, "The Hill"). That whole part of town would cheer Italy to victory over the US.

Then again they follow the rules laid down by an Italian head of state--the Pope.

Yesterday I helped arrange a celebration where over 100 US Citizens came together to celebrate the birth of a country other than the US. With lots of cheers and congratulations this entire school of US citizens celebrated their difference from the normal US citizen by partying for Israel. It was their annual Israel anniversary party.

Yes, there are people of European ancestry who see their US citizenship as important, but also see their return to Jerusalem as even more important. They defend Israel over the US, even when Israel is caught spying on this country.

You might know one of them.

Lisa.

And I don't believe Lisa has a drop of Mexican blood in her whole body.

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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth_Mauve:
Oh, a quick comment on the "Root for Mexico instead of the US during World Cup Soccer" complaint.

Yeah, that's something only Mexican immigrants would do.

Oh, one of my wife's Grandmothers immigrated from Britain after WWII (with a new German born US GI husband.) She is still a Manchester United fan and would definitely cheer for them over any US team if we ever competed.

Her other grandmother was born in Italy. They lived in the Italian section of St. Louis (called, "The Hill"). That whole part of town would cheer Italy to victory over the US.

Then again they follow the rules laid down by an Italian head of state--the Pope.

Yesterday I helped arrange a celebration where over 100 US Citizens came together to celebrate the birth of a country other than the US. With lots of cheers and congratulations this entire school of US citizens celebrated their difference from the normal US citizen by partying for Israel. It was their annual Israel anniversary party.

Yes, there are people of European ancestry who see their US citizenship as important, but also see their return to Jerusalem as even more important. They defend Israel over the US, even when Israel is caught spying on this country.

You might know one of them.

Lisa.

And I don't believe Lisa has a drop of Mexican blood in her whole body.

This would be an excellent post if I ever claimed the concept of duel loyalty was unique to Mexicans.

Look, some groups (like Jews) don't consider the United States "theirs" the same way that christian whites do. They are citizens, yes, but they aren't vital to the core of the country's self-conception which is why they care so much about another country. What the United States is to the descendants of white settlers, Israel is to Jews, i.e, our land. Jews however expect America to be shared by the people of the world but they would never advocate such immigration policies for Israel.

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contents under pressure
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Moreover, groups like Italian Americans today show some ethnic pride in their origin but the idea of an Italian American betraying the United States for Italy is unthinkable because culturally, Italian Americans have become a different people. On the other hand, Jews frequently spy on the U.S for Israel's behalf. If Lisa had to choose between saving ten random Americans or ten random Israelis, it's up in the air which she'd choose. (Actually it isn't. She'd save the Jews.)
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contents under pressure
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See this post by Stephen Walt on the problems posed by duel loyalty:

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/04/02/on_dual_loyalty

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TomDavidson
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quote:
What the United States is to the descendants of white settlers...
Let me know when you've given up pretending you aren't racist, by the way. [Wink]
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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
What the United States is to the descendants of white settlers...
Let me know when you've given up pretending you aren't racist, by the way. [Wink]
Racism is treating an individual wrongly because of his or her race. How am I being racist?
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
... some groups (like Jews) don't consider the United States "theirs" the same way that christian whites do.

How about the non-Christian whites? And how do you distinguish your Christian whites from the large number of catholic Mexicans of Spanish descent, i.e. Christian whites?

quote:
... vital to the core of the country's self-conception which is why they care so much about another country.
Out of morbid curiosity, in your opinion, what precisely IS core to the self-conception of the United States?
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Rakeesh
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Well, that's one transparent way to generate discussion fodder for a troll: start with the anti-Semitism out of nowhere.
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Samprimary
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I'm not saying we should talk about cookies but
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Tresopax
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quote:
Racism is treating an individual wrongly because of his or her race. How am I being racist?
Actually, isn't racism jumping to conclusions about people based on their race? You can be a racist without revealing it with actions, right?
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Samprimary
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it's only racism if it doesn't fit into my tautology about racism. Since it doesn't fit into my tautology about racism, I'm not a racist
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Geraine- I was discussing immigrating from Mexico, not Albania. Waiting lists are different for every country.

I misunderstood you. I apologize.

The way immigration laws are set up and the outrageous amounts one has to pay to come here legally, I agree with you. Its easier and often times less risky to come here illegally.

It doesn't make it right, but I can't say I blame them.

My definition of "All-American" : Hot Dog and Hamburger cookouts, Baseball, Johnny Cash, 50's diners, Grease, Sock Hops, Rodeos, Nascar, Denny's, Johnny Rocket's, and Ice Cream Parlors.

As far as the cost of deportation... I would be interested to know what the cost of deportation is compared to the cost burden of illegal immigrants on our public education system, the healthcare system, tax revenues, etc. Does anyone know of a good study that has been performed?

[ April 20, 2010, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Geraine ]

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Xavier
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quote:

My definition of "All-American" : Hot Dog and Hamburger cookouts, Baseball, Johnny Cash, 50's diners, Grease, Sock Hops, Rodeos, Nascar, Denny's, Johnny Rocket's, and Ice Cream Parlors.

Jeez, maybe 2/11 of those am I interested in.
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
What the United States is to the descendants of white settlers...
Let me know when you've given up pretending you aren't racist, by the way. [Wink]
Racism is treating an individual wrongly because of his or her race. How am I being racist?
How are you NOT?
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Geraine
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Yeah, it's not the be all end all list, just things that popped into my mind. Elvis could also be on the list. I'm a fan of only a few of those on the list, but then again that wasn't the intent.
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Geraine- I was discussing immigrating from Mexico, not Albania. Waiting lists are different for every country.

I misunderstood you. I apologize.

The way immigration laws are set up and the outrageous amounts one has to pay to come here legally, I agree with you. Its easier and often times less risky to come here illegally.

It doesn't make it right, but I can't say I blame them.

My definition of "All-American" : Hot Dog and Hamburger cookouts, Baseball, Johnny Cash, 50's diners, Grease, Sock Hops, Rodeos, Nascar, Denny's, Johnny Rocket's, and Ice Cream Parlors.

As far as the cost of deportation... I would be interested to know what the cost of deportation is compared to the cost burden of illegal immigrants on our public education system, the healthcare system, tax revenues, etc. Does anyone know of a good study that has been performed?

Let's not forget that most of the people you are talking about, if they WERE legal, wouldn't be PAYING income taxes, their wages are too low. However, they DO generate millions of dollars for the areas they live in via sales tax. Something that is coincidentally "forgotten" whenever this topic comes up....
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rivka
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Many illegal immigrants DO pay taxes. The IRS is perfectly happy to take their money -- that's what ITIN's are for.
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scholarette
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Geraine- no problem. Having heard so many horror stories about immigration (my sister is an immigration lawyer, before in the US, now based in Canada so I hear a lot of stories) I get a little annoyed when people assume the legal method is actually a viable method for most illegal immigrants. Waiting 20 years is just not a feasible option for many immigrants (on top of not having access to legal assistance- my sister is considered dirt cheap in immigration business but I doubt many people could actually afford her rates).
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contents under pressure
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Here is Pat Buchanan's latest column:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=36599

Liberals keep saying that the tea-party movement is racist. This charge is nothing but the disparaging version of an obvious truth: the tea-party movement is an ethnic movement. The more endless migration there is from Mexico -- that is, the more Hispanics that are already here aren't assimilated as much as possible (and their cultural differences aren't being reinforced by further heavy immigration from Mexico) the more ethnic tensions and conflict we will experience. Liberals always think they can stop someone they consider a "racist" by labeling them as such, but there may come the time soon enough where whites overwhelmingly just shrug their shoulders at the charge.

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contents under pressure
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Geraine- I was discussing immigrating from Mexico, not Albania. Waiting lists are different for every country.

I misunderstood you. I apologize.

The way immigration laws are set up and the outrageous amounts one has to pay to come here legally, I agree with you. Its easier and often times less risky to come here illegally.

It doesn't make it right, but I can't say I blame them.

My definition of "All-American" : Hot Dog and Hamburger cookouts, Baseball, Johnny Cash, 50's diners, Grease, Sock Hops, Rodeos, Nascar, Denny's, Johnny Rocket's, and Ice Cream Parlors.

As far as the cost of deportation... I would be interested to know what the cost of deportation is compared to the cost burden of illegal immigrants on our public education system, the healthcare system, tax revenues, etc. Does anyone know of a good study that has been performed?

Let's not forget that most of the people you are talking about, if they WERE legal, wouldn't be PAYING income taxes, their wages are too low. However, they DO generate millions of dollars for the areas they live in via sales tax. Something that is coincidentally "forgotten" whenever this topic comes up....
Guess what: if immigrants show up illegally and take jobs, they'll end up paying taxes. That doesn't they should have showed up illegally, and it doesn't mean that the people of this country should have been robbed of the choice to select a better quality of immigrant. Instead of 12 million mexicans, there could have been 12 million high quality immigrants from all over the world. Less hispanic voting block and less ethnic tensions! Plus, probably way more in tax revenue!
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by contents under pressure:
Here is Pat Buchanan's latest column:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=36599

Liberals keep saying that the tea-party movement is racist. This charge is nothing but the disparaging version of an obvious truth: the tea-party movement is an ethnic movement. The more endless migration there is from Mexico -- that is, the more Hispanics that are already here aren't assimilated as much as possible (and their cultural differences aren't being reinforced by further heavy immigration from Mexico) the more ethnic tensions and conflict we will experience. Liberals always think they can stop someone they consider a "racist" by labeling them as such, but there may come the time soon enough where whites overwhelmingly just shrug their shoulders at the charge.

Fact 1--quoting Pat Buchanan is pretty much automatic trolling.

Fact 2--The moment that 100% European-descended white people tell people with at least some Native American blood that they have to respect national boundaries that the white people set up (in the Americas), is the moment that those white people lose any moral high ground, or indeed, moral credibility. Period, whitey.

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Darth_Mauve
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I don't think the Tea Party is racist.

I do think there are a few racist who gather around it as any excuse to attack the black man who dared to be President, but the party itself is not racist.

However, I don't think the Tea Party is ethnic either. The last thing anybody wants to discuss at a Tea Party Gathering is some "Ethnic Cleansing" which is where all this Ethnic talk eventually leads.

I do believe it is very class-oriented. Those with money don't want to give it to the government to pay for programs that mostly go to those without any money. Race and ethnicity is only important as that it can be a cheap and easy way to recognize classes.

Today the rich don't dress that much better than the poor--Jeans and a T-Shirt are comfortable for both groups. So being hispanic, native American, or black is a quick class identifier.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
However, I don't think the Tea Party is ethnic either. The last thing anybody wants to discuss at a Tea Party Gathering is some "Ethnic Cleansing" which is where all this Ethnic talk eventually leads.
I dunno. In fact, I absolutely agree that, yes, the Tea Party is an ethnic movement -- even though very few of them would be interested in committing genocide. (To be honest, I think defining an "ethnic movement" as one which wishes to discuss "ethnic cleansing" is kind of strange.)

I think it's the absolutely predictable -- if pathetic -- last gasp of people who aren't comfortable with the shrinking influence of WASPs in this country.

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malanthrop
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I don't believe they should be able to stop people without cause to check their legal status. Unfortunately, police can always come up with a "cause". I was pulled over for "flickering brake lights". I had a diesel VW rabbit with a cracked header and was pulled over because "it sounded like I excessively accellerated". I asked the cop, "What does velocity sound like?" That rabbit had a top speed of 65 and could only break traction on ice.

When anyone is detained, for cause, their status should be verified. Ever heard of "giving a false name to a law enforcement officer"? Who's verifying the identity of the illegal alien? In my city, 50 people are arrested and released with a $250 fine for "no license". Without identification, who verified that one of the 50 Jose Echevaria Rodriquez's isn't a criminal? They can't check their record or validate their identity. They don't check their legal status either. A fine and released. Legal residents have records.

[ April 20, 2010, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: malanthrop ]

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Who's verifying the identity of the illegal alien? In my city, 50 people are arrested and released with a $250 fine for "no license".
What city is that? Because around here, being caught driving without a license involves a court date to say the least. Certainly not just a fine.
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Who's verifying the identity of the illegal alien? In my city, 50 people are arrested and released with a $250 fine for "no license".
What city is that? Because around here, being caught driving without a license involves a court date to say the least. Certainly not just a fine.
If you care to take the time to research, here's the link. I know you aren't one to "profile" but click on the long hispanic names and check their charges and release info.

http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/PublicInquiry/ArrestInquiry

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daventor
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I've only recently noticed the news headlines about this legislation, and I still need to actually read up on it to formulate an opinion on this specific story, but I just want to say, as life-long-resident of southern Arizona, it does really bother me whenever those who are for restricting illegal immigration get broad-brush-painted as xenophobes and racists. I grew up in a conservative home (still identify myself as conservative) so I'd also consider myself on the side of trying to restrict illegal immigration, though I'm seeing it now as a more complicated issue than when I was growing up. I don't care if you're white, off-white, green, blue, black, yellow, maroon, brown, purple (now wait a minute. You got to draw the line somewhere. To HECK with purple people! Unless they're choking...) and/or have an accent, but I do care about rule of law and I would prefer for people coming here to learn English. In any case, I intend to study on it further but I hate when a large percentage of the population get dismissed as racists just because they have a different opinion than others about a complicated issue.
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daventor
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So, um, Tom, you think the Tea Party movement (besides venting their ethnic/class insecurities at the diminishing WASP influence) might actually be concerned about constitutional limits on government and a rapidly growing national debt like they say? Cause to me those sound like legitimate causes for concern. I haven't been to a Tea Party meeting yet and wasn't really planning to but all these condescending "stupid Tea Partiers" statements I've been seeing/hearing from people lately is doing more than anything else to make me want to get involved with them.
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Jenos
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I'm leery about the tea partier's who claim to be against stuff like the growing debt. I don't intend this remark to be inflammatory, but how many tea party members know the difference between debt and deficit? I'm not trying to imply that tea party members are stupider than others, but my purpose is to question the idea that the average person can even have a weak grasp of public policy. I have spent(and plan on spending) many years studying public policy and economics, learning from trained experts, and getting a degree. Is it feasible that the average person can simply get up and understand what exactly is happening with federal spending?

I ask this because I saw this happen a lot with the health care debates - there were thousands of people protesting the issue without even understanding the basics of insurance policy and economics. I don't pretend to fully understand it either, but I'm not about to get up and take a stand given that I recognize my shortcomings.

Am I simply stupid to require years of learning to understand whats really going on with these issues? Or is it that when most people protest they aren't protesting the actual policy issues, but rather finding solidarity in a group and simply going along with the flow?

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AvidReader
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Great questions, Jenos.

I would say that all people have the right to express their opinion as they understand the issue to be, and they have the right to change it as more information becomes availble. Those of us who aren't economists still have to get by and do the best we can. I actually think it would be irresponsible of us to leave sweeping policy decisions to others on the grounds that they know what's best.

That said, economics really does make no sense to the average person. Like the recession. We've got a tenth of the country out of work and the news keeps telling me that the economy will eventually grow enough to get new jobs for them. So how does that work? If the other 90% of us are buying and selling at a steady rate and the other 10% are losing money, shouldn't they need a large influx of capital to get them back into the game?

I learned Keynsian economics in school, so I know intellectually that defecit spending is good for a recession. It has a higher multiplier than tax cuts so it's more efficient. I also know that when I run out of money before payday, we pick up some ramen and some mac and cheese and make due - except when we know there's a large bonus in the next paycheck.

So as a non-economist, it's real easy to say, "Hey, the government's out of money. Looks like we need to strip the budget down to the bare minimum to get by or go find that money Madoff stole." As a side note, prosecuting the executives who drove their banks into failure and still got fat bonuses really appeals to me. I do feel like they owe the country that money back - that was straight up legal theft.

But on topic, if the people are making the best decisions they can with the data available, I feel the government has an obligation to tell us why they're right. You'd think "If we stop spending, no one has any money" would be a pretty compelling argument. But what happens next? If everyone's just getting by with stagnant wages and the businesses are all squeaking by on a tiny profit margin, where does the next big burst of capital come from to get the nation back to financial independance from the government? When does spending money we don't have turn into spending money we actually have instead of just spreading around the fake money we owe to Japan and China?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
So, um, Tom, you think the Tea Party movement (besides venting their ethnic/class insecurities at the diminishing WASP influence) might actually be concerned about constitutional limits on government and a rapidly growing national debt like they say?
I think some individual members of the party might care. I think the vast majority, however, do not, although they've been trained to give lip service to it.
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