I do consider many people here to be friends, you and Juliette very much included. The ones that aren't, I simply don't know. I am more protective of new people because I figure the older ones can take care of themselves. I also have an impulsive mouth, and I am trying to fix that. I'm sorry. It is getting better; I'm trying. If you tell me nicely at the time, I'll fix it.
For me:
For whatever reason, I have a hard time being around people I can't trust absolutely. For some of my social groups, I love individual members, but the groups I continue in only because I should. I keep in touch with my family and refuse to write them off because I don't believe in doing that - despite things like my brother not inviting me to his wedding because he'd rather invite roommates, and my dad going to Disneyland with my stepmom for Thanksgiving because it's too much of a pain to cook dinner for everyone.
I keep going in my ward because I believe in it. I believe in community. I believe in human group interaction, and I believe it's a commandment to be there for one another. I believe I've made a promise to, and I believe that there is no such thing as a saint a vaccuum.
But it sucks. I hate it. It's hard for me to be around large groups of people that I don't know well. It always has been. It's hard for me to keep going when I don't know if I'll be blindsided. Maybe it's a crutch, but for me, some of Hatrack HAS to be practice - slightly less real - because if it weren't, there's no earthly way I'd stay. I don't have to be here, but I've done quite enough retreating in my life and I'm not doing it again.
posted
I am seriously tempted to bring Rita in here and spank the living daylights out of anyone who dares post in this thread. Rita, however, is not judge and jury and I would never abuse her power in such a way.
-I-, on the other hand, can spank anyone I darn well please. I may not have an assortment of leather whips and sparkly sticks, but I am no small woman.
Just something to keep in mind the next time any of you are tempted to act like fething three year olds. Smilies don't ruin hatrack for me. Nonsense like this senseless bickering does.
Posts: 1676 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I agree whole-heartedly with most of what Rivka has said in this thread.
EG, thanks. Like I'm not weird enough in my primary screen name.
quote:I mean, obviously nobody but the Cards has a say in what Hatrack will be, but there is probably a good majority here that agrees to a large extent on what it can be.
Frisco. Not to pick on you, but I think this opinion is wrong. The Cards can and do set the boundaries of Hatrack, in the service agreement or whatever it's called, in the interests of keeping the forum family-friendly. No cursing (freqently violated) and no ad hominim attacks (also violated by some) spring to mind.
Beyond those 2 rules, maybe a couple of others, the Cards seem to have a remarkably hands-off policy towards the forum. One reason I like it, I wouldn't be happy in a heavily moderated general-topic forum.
What the forum can be and will become is up to the to all the posters collectively, not the Cards. Provided they don't pull the plug, of course. Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Regarding your "impulsive mouth," if you'd just called him a butt or some such, I wouldn't have said anything.
As for the rest, well, I don't have a good response. I mean, I think that in a community of any size, if you have friends, you're not really on your own, as far as needing to keep your guard up. I was a bit wary at first, but these days I'm more relaxed because I feel security in my friendships. But you feel the way you feel, and I can't say that you shouldn't feel that way about groups. Not everyone is cut out for that sort of interaction.
Still, when you get to the personal level, a group is just a bunch of individuals, and you'll never have a relationship with the group, just with the people in it.
Heck, I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'll just quit rambling now.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
In any disagreement, people ultimately have to either seek common ground or accept that they will not convert everyone to their point of view, and move on. (Or seek only to try and understand opposing views, and not so much to change them.)
I think there are a lot of people in this thread looking for common ground, but I think there also several who have drawn their battle lines and are not even reading the posts they are responding to.
I guess I can't do anything about that.
For my own part, I don't want to be unwelcoming. I'm sorry if anybody has felt unwelome because of me. Consider the possibility that new members are not exclusive in their ability to feel shut out. Maybe a lot of people who have been here for a while feel like they are shut of the relationships between people who only post in two or three threads, but seem to know each other really well. Maybe some of the veterans of Hatrack feel threatened themselves. I'm sure these newer posters don't mean to make anybody feel excluded, much as I don't mean to make any newer members feel unwelcome. So maybe we need to look beyond our hurt feelings to achieve resolution here. We're all so busy saying how hurt or offended we are that we can't look for common ground.
I don't mean to insult anybody when I say that I also (personally) think that posts that consist of a half-dozen or more animated smilies and little else, last post threads, and role-playing in threads gets old for me quickly. We used to have last post threads come up every few months or so. Many of the stodgy old timers here participated. They would eventually die. That was the whole joke, really: to see when they would die and who was the last person to keep it going. In other words, somebody eventually won. I've posted in last post threads, and I've posted in role-playing threads, and I've posted a series of smilies in place of any message. I just wish there was more moderation in these things. Heck, maybe we "codgers" would participate if they were more in moderation . . . maybe some of us feel like unwelcome outsiders in those games.
But I'm not in charge. What I would prefer doesn't really matter. I recognize that.
I can stay out of the last post thread, unless I feel like being silly. I can stay out of the 8 smilies in every post thread, unless I feel like being silly. I can stay out of the hug thread, unless I feel like giving and receiving hugs.
For their part, the people who like all of the Silly (as opposed to the Funny ) should not turn more serious threads into smilie threads or RPG threads, but I don't really know that this has ever happened. 8-smilies in every post day, if it ever takes place, strikes me as a singularly bad idea. I think, for their part, people who like the Silly could refrain from responding to people who mention, without being insulting, that they don't like smilies by posting eight animated smilies immediately after. The "target" of this doesn't find it funny; he/she might well feel attacked instead. I understand your desire for revenge over feeling unwelcomed and unesteemed, but revenge never de-escalates anything. Tell you what . . . you don't turn the serious threads into smilie threads, and those of us who like serious threads won't come discuss abortion and homosexuality in the last post thread. Fair enough?
I think those of us who don't like the Silly are out of line in asking for it not to exist, or feeling like we can make any demands. Three or four silly threads (that are always at the top . . . never mind . . . ) on the front page doesn't seem like that high a price to pay for everybody to find what they like here. It's not that hard to look on page two for our threads.
But can we proselytize instead? Can we just tell you that last post threads are funnier when they're not around for a while? Can we just encourage you to say something, with words, instead of posting eight animated smilies? That we would love to have you playing with us instead of beside us? And then you can ignore us silly throwbacks with no hard feelings?
quote:never have a relationship with the group, just with the people in it.
Now, this I completely believe. That's what I meant - I can't remember what thread this was on - when I said I didn't believe in anything but individuals. That for all talks of Hatrack is this or that, there is no consensus of opinion. There is no "Hatrack thinks/is..." It's occasionally useful to use the labels, but the only people that matter are individuals.
Icarus: I sort of assume that old-timers can take care of themselves, and that it is the new people that are fragile, but maybe that's not right.
Jon Boy: *grin* There's no such thing as a group hug. Too bad; I do sort of feel like one now.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Kat, I was writing that post when everyone was snipping at each other. Just feel like a bit of a dork getting pissy with everyone for arguing when they aren't arguing so bad anymore.
On the other hand, I've been wanting to say something about the squabbling and exactly how much I hate it for a while now, so even if it's ill timed, better than biting my tongue yet again.
Posts: 1676 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Kat you're wrong, there is such a thing as a group hug and I've parcticipated in several. They are particularly common after winning team sporting events. AJ
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: In any disagreement, people ultimately have to either seek common ground or accept that they will not convert everyone to their point of view, and move on.
I agree, however, every time Caleb, or anyone for that matter, started a homosexuality thread, Kat parked herself there and spent a half a dozen pages refusing pleas for her to stop. She refuses to accept that we will never agree and just stay out of those threads. She has been the cause of more than one person to leave hatrack over just that behavior. And she refuses to discuss it!
So, because she refuses to "accept there is no common ground and move on" in homosexuality threads, and refuses to discuss things when other things happen like this thread, then I lose my temper and call her on it. Sorry if it makes hatrack uncomfortable, but she makes others outright miserable in the homosexuality threads and has been the cause of more than one person leaving hatrack. She says she's not retreating anymore, but refusal to discuss is retreating. And apparently, we are supposed to console her when her feelings are hurt, but when ours are hurt, not only does it seem she doesn't care, but she'll rub salt in the wound.
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posted
Kayla, did you see me console her or did you see me call her on behavior of which I disapproved?
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Kayla, what do you hope to gain with this? I understand that you disapprove of the way kat conducts herself, but the conversation had just gotten back to civil tones. What's the point of what you're saying?
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Oh, right now, it's a toss up. Partly just to annoy her, just as she annoys some of us in homosexuality threads. And partly to call her on her behavior and make others aware of it. If we all didn't let her get away with it, maybe it would abate somewhat. And lastly, in the slight hope that some of might make her think.
quote: Everyone belongs, everyone is worthwhile, and if you need a clique, don't do it here.
quote:No Kayla, I refuse to discuss it with you.
Does this mean you discuss it with others? Will you discuss it with others? Let me know who. Frisco went to bed, not that you read the post where he said it, but if you want, I'll e-mail him my thoughts and see if he can't incorperate it into a response to you.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I just wanted to point out how this thread was resembling the star bellied sneetch story for a while, and then it became that scene fromm "Joe Vs. the volcano" where the supervisor is arguing on the phone with Harry.
And tom used a smiley. I did see that.
Anyway, Kat is in my clique. Come on, honey, let's ditch this joint and go shopping.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Kayla, do you intend to harp on kat continually -- in completely unrelated threads -- about this issue, until she either breaks down or is driven from the forum?
If so, I will -- and I'm completely serious about this -- argue to Kathy that you and anyone else committed to the same goal should be immediately banned.
Your attitude -- "I know it hurts Hatrack, but I'm going to post like this partly just to annoy kat" -- is deplorable, and your crusade is both childish and tiresome.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:And partly to call her on her behavior and make others aware of it.
I think there are only five or six people still reading this, so I'm a little confused on the latter part of your goal.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Tom, have you ever argued to Kathy about her behavior? And, point in fact, it was brought up here, not by me, but by Frisco, who edited it. Not that it matters one way or another. She's driven Caleb and me from here anyway. We are both only still here till after the Thanksgiving get-together anyway. So, it is not a completly unrelated thread, as the topic was raised in this thread, and secondly, I don't do it in unrelated threads, but she has shown the same behavior in this thread as she has in homosexuality threads, and thirdly, why do you defend her when she does it to others?
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I have never complained to Kathy about her behavior because, quite frankly, I don't think kat is ever intentionally hurtful. She slaps BACK, but I think she's been misunderstood more than anything else -- and you guys just won't let it GO.
You're being ridiculously petty. The vast majority of Hatrackers -- INCLUDING kat, I'd imagine -- adore both you and Caleb. You KNOW I like both of you. If you can't live with the thought that there are people here who unapologetically disapprove of Caleb's lifestyle -- a disapproval you know I don't share, but a disapproval I recognize is rooted in their faith and therefore unlikely to change -- it's a shame, but it's no excuse to literally bully someone in every single thread.
Kat's made a number of mistakes on her own, mind you, but far more of them have come in response to some really vicious and unwarranted personal attacks. She's capable of saying things like "you're just text" which can easily be interpreted as being highly insulting, but I believe with all my heart that she doesn't mean them that way; I think, at worst, that she really IS practicing social skills.
Does anyone really think that kat's a bigot? Or that she's hateful or deceitful? If so, these people are completely and totally mistaken.
They're entitled to their opinion on the matter, of course -- but (in MY opinion) they are NOT entitled to drag her through the mud at every opportunity to "demonstrate" to the world just how "bad" a person she is.
As I said before, back when Caleb tried to recruit me for his Crusade: I want no part of this crap.
quote: If you can't live with the thought that there are people here who unapologetically disapprove of Caleb's lifestyle -- a disapproval you know I don't share, but a disapproval I recognize is rooted in their faith and therefore unlikely to change -- it's a shame, but it's no excuse to literally bully someone in every single thread.
This completely misses the point. Not only do I not care about her opinion of Caleb's lifestyle, but I adore Patrick who has, pretty much, the same view as Kat. The problem I have is that she refuses to let it go and feels the need to come into every single homosexuality thread and tell everyone how wrong it is. We got it. We've asked her nicely to stop. She won't. And, as silly as it is, it does hurt Caleb and she just doesn't give a damn. If this were about a newbie who loves the color purple, which I personally hate, and she did the same thing, I would still be pissed at her. It's not her opinion that bothers me so much, it's her refusal to see that she is hurting others.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
"The problem I have is that [Kayla] refuses to let it go and feels the need to come into every single [whatever] thread and tell everyone how wrong [Kat] is."
Kayla, your behavior is the same behavior that you're criticizing her for. If you need to take a break from Hatrack, that's fine, but in my opinion, it's a bad idea to leave for good because of hurt feelings.
In other words, if you leave, please come back.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I'm sorry for the "you're just text" comment. It wasn't meant as "you're just text, so you don't matter", but rather "this is real enough, and you're just text. Imagine if it was in real life in front of me."
I did not know it would be so offensive, and I did not mean to dismiss online relationships. I know they're real.
What I said:
quote:You'd be rude to a friend, or a co-worker, or a family member, or class member - someone you would continue to see, and someone who now looks at you as a person who is willing to hurt. Fortunately, it wasn't someone else - it was me, and you're just text.
*shakes head* Sorry if that was confusing. I meant it was a good thing he could be rude to me with fewer (but not zero) consequences than to someone in real life.
quote: Would you people please -- PLEASE -- grow up? Or shut up?
quote: Your attitude -- "I know it hurts Hatrack, but I'm going to post like this partly just to annoy kat" -- is deplorable, and your crusade is both childish and tiresome.
You know, I don't think I've ever seen Tom nearly lose his temper on the forum.
Kayla might have a point, but I don't really know the context. I sometimes skip posts in homosexuality threads if they're not addressed to me or a specific person. So, I might have missed a few of Katharina's posts, but I read a lot of hers, and I have never found anything hurtful in them.
Kayla, if you're reading this, what things said in the homosexuality threads have hurt Caleb? Or even Caleb could answer that one. I'm honestly curious. I don't believe in hurting anyone, regardless of their private lifestyle.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Nick, I know you're curious, and your curiosity is an honest one, but I think publicly discussing it again will just open old wounds and drag us all through it again. It was a hard time and I don't think it's worth it to have to see so many bad feelings getting thrown around again.
If anyone does feel like having this conversation with Nick, I'd request that they move it to email, just in the interests of keeping the peace.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Wow, things got ugly around here since I last checked. SO i'll happily stay away but first let me respond...
quote:beatnix, you don't win, because all you said in the quoted post was that Tom is a meanie.
I wasn't really trying to win. Just trying to point out that I'm kind of a dummy who shouldn't be taken too seriously. In a couple of thread Tom has kind of cheesed me off with some of his comments but all in all I really DON"T have a problem with him. I just saw a strong personality and well, saw an opening to stir things up. I obviously have not been around here very long and don't know a lot of the past wounds that shouldn't be uncovered again. It seems i stumbled into one here so like I said, I'll be staying away from this now. In the future feel free to tell me to shut up, it probably won't help but it definately won't hurt.
And just to get back on topic... Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Kayla, dude, you know how much I dig you, but I don't think acting like Katharine is the best way to behave in reaction to Katharine's own immorality.
For my part, I remain disgusted with her for her incessant lying. God knows I made a large enough fuss over it. But while I have yet to see what Eddie posted, it seems he was out of place posting it in the first place. You seem to have taken advantage of the opportunity, and wish to punish Katharine for past misdeeds by acting as irrationally and rude as she has in the past -- but I can't understand why you would.
You, unlike her and several other people on the board, hold my respect and attention. The reason why you do so is precisely your usually reasonable and dignified thinking. Katharina, based not only on recent threads, does not hold my respect, and I doubt she ever will again. If you want to be held in the same light as she is, by all means, continue your harassment -- but if only for my sake, let me continue my incessant respect for you and call off the war.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I find the personal insults upsetting. If you don't respect Kat, Lalo, keep it to yourself. I disagree with her on many things, too, but that doesn't mean she deserves no respect. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
And by the way, Kat, I loved it when you said this:
quote:Yes, saxon and rivka are right. Everyone belongs, everyone is worthwhile, and if you need a clique, don't do it here. Hatrack is for acceptance. We need it, and it won't hurt you to give it.
If you need Hatrack to be only YOUR kind of place, give it up. Find a place in Real Life to be that. Hatrack's for everybody, in whatever way they need.
posted
You miss the point, Ela. I haven't lost my respect for Katharina because I disagree with her -- if that were the case, I doubt I'd have respect for anyone at all. No. What I dislike about Katharina is her unbelievable tendency to lie and ignore all responsibility for her lies when people respond to them. Obviously, you missed the god-knows-how-many-pages thread in which Katharina insulted both Caleb and me, both with lies, then lied more to avoid responsibility for her actions. Then, a week after she ran away from an analysis of her lies I wasted a good hour or two of my life on, she started it up again.
No. Katharina doesn't deserve respect. But Kayla does, and I hope she'll continue in a manner that merits it.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I should mention, however, I have yet to see Katharina lie in this thread. A blessing.
I have to wonder what Frisco did, however. He's a good guy, and I doubt he'd ever post anything malicious. I wish he hadn't edited his post out of courtesy to Katharina, so I could better understand whatever it was he wrote.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Lalo, your posts are making me sad. I have seen the thread that you are referring to. I don't believe that Kat ever intentionally lied, though she did hurt some feelings by her tendency to skim posts instead of reading the whole thing.
It happened, it's done, let's put it in the past already. Are you going to berate her about it forever?
You know, it started out being a good-natured discussion on non-political issues with everyone keeping their cool, contributing their ideas and being somewhat civil.
I was even starting to understand rivka again, and lighten up in my codgerness.
Then it turned nasty. Then it turned to arguments that happened WEEKS ago. And no one is budging.
Maybe the newbies who use smilies are on to something.
Posts: 1800 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
[rant] You know, I was pretty calm discussing this with people, but now they're just getting unneccisarily knitpicky, and cranky, and nasty, and...I'm starting to get kind of ticked off! I mean, just get over it, people! I'm now containing fluff to fluff-based threads only. If you don't want to see fluff, don't read those threads! If cheerful smileys make you upset, then that's your problem! Get over it! [/rant]
Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
"I should mention, however, I have yet to see Katharina lie in this thread."
Eddie, don't make me kick you. I shouldn't have to tell you -- YOU, of all people -- that misrepresenting or misunderstanding someone's argument is not the same thing as a lie, and I think it's intolerably underhanded of you to harp on these "lies" as if they were actually sins of some great magnitude, some enormous character flaw that precludes your ability to respect or empathize with her.
The fact is, Eds, you're trying to hurt somebody who never meant to hurt you, and you're kicking sand in her face every time you accuse her of "lying." Deliberately. Every time. You rip open a wound and pour vinegar in it and DARE her to respond.
I know this, because I've had it done to me. Remember Baldar?
If you really, sincerely, feel that kat somehow "lied" about, of all ridiculous and pathetic things to stretch the truth about, some positions and quotes on a DISCUSSION FORUM, let that color your opinion of her as much as you want; note, however, that I don't share your opinion. Either way, though, don't harp on it, not least because it makes you tiresome.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
...said the man who's pounced on Kayla for far less.
I'm afraid don't understand your insistence on defending poor suffering Katharine from charges of lying -- which I doubt you'll deny -- and still threaten an attempt to ban Kayla for harassment. Harassment which, while unjustified, was neither baseless nor false.
What's this about "trying to hurt someone who never meant to hurt [me]"? I wanted an apology weeks ago for lies she made, or at least some kind of acknowledgement of responsibility. While I'm over expecting that of her, there's no way I'm going to charge Kayla with harassment and pretend it was entirely without cause. Katharine has exasperated the hell out of many people with her constant avoidance of responsibility, and while I think it was petty of Kayla to bring it up here, it's not a shot in the dark.
Again, I'm not looking to attack Katharine for the hell of it -- if you'll notice, I asked Kayla to end it. But Kayla wasn't making up the charges she held against Katharine. And I'm not going to pretend she did -- to do so would only shame Kayla, who deserves shame far less than Katharina deserves acknowledgement of her moral failings. This isn't the right time or place, if there ever is a right time or place, but I'm not going to pretend Kayla's behavior was random and causeless.
Not even for you, sweetcheeks.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Lalo, you're taking what you claim to be Katharina's "lies" a bit too far.
Maybe she did. If she did -- please note I did say if -- then the kind of backlash you're doing is like beating somebody to a pulp just because they bumped you on accident walking down the street.
In other words, you're over-dramatizing this -- possibly for your own benefit -- and it's getting to be rather disgusting. I don't know what happened between you and Katharina, but I do know that you are being a prick in the way you tell your side of what happened -- which saxon75 wisely tried to prevent peacefully, I might add.
[ November 25, 2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Like I'm not weird enough in my primary screen name.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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) should not turn more serious threads into smilie threads or RPG threads, but I don't really know that this has ever happened. 8-smilies in every post day, if it ever takes place, strikes me as a singularly bad idea. I think, for their part, people who like the Silly could refrain from responding to people who mention, without being insulting, that they don't like smilies by posting eight animated smilies immediately after. The "target" of this doesn't find it funny; he/she might well feel attacked instead. I understand your desire for revenge over feeling unwelcomed and unesteemed, but revenge never de-escalates anything. Tell you what . . . you don't turn the serious threads into smilie threads, and those of us who like serious threads won't come discuss abortion and homosexuality in the last post thread. Fair enough? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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