quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: But back to the fan fiction is selfish" argument: I ask again: Is fan fiction still wrong when the author condones, approves, and encourages it?
This, I feel being the most important part of my mindset on this. If the author approves, then see your list of reasons why fanfic is a bad idea, but those were not my claims nor do I find them to be particularly important in the long run. As a fellow human being I couldn't care less what you choose to waste your time doing, its only the attitude towards property, ownership, creativity and primacy that I find relevant.
Leonide- The scenario is too hypothetical to give you an opinion. It COULD be stealing if it were done a certain way, and it could be a very original composition inspired by the Beatles, thats a grey shade I can't color in for you. Whether the Beatles tell you its ok to do it or not (the half of them who live) is immaterial to my point. The thing I keep getting kicked up at me, and which I keep swatting away because its irrelevent, is whether the author is "ok with it." This changes nothing about what a fanfic does and means to the person who writes it, (instances of collaboration aside).
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It sounded like you were arguing that fanfiction is never ok. So of course we're going to bring up "What if the author's ok with it?" I had no idea you were arguing the "what a fanfic does and means to the person who writes it" angle.
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But that's precisely the part that really can't be argued any further. You've said that at it's core all fan fiction is selfish, partly based on your own experiences. I disagree, partly based on my own experiences. Where, exactly, can we go from here?
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There are better odds at the roulette table than at coming to an agreement, that's for sure...
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As a side question, how is fanfiction based on OSC's story inherently selfish, while a fan-symphony based on OSC's story is not selfish and "would only enhance the value of" the original? Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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That's simple, and if you know my thoughts as I've expressed them, you'll see that writing a derivative work in a different genre is quite apart from fanfic. How would you get orpheo, how would get Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet- without this kind of literary borrowing in music. How would you get 10,00 0 classic german lieder (songs) without the poetry that they are set to.
No, this is not fan fic at all. This is the nature of programmatic music. I think you knew that and were just teasing. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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You are a fan of Ender's Game. You like classical music. So you want to express your fan-ness through classical music. Is that not what you are doing? But if someone is a fan of EG, but likes writing instead of classical music, you then think it is selfish of them to express their fan-ness through writing fanfics?
The motivation is the same.
Your examples of derivative music serve to show how valid the above motive is. Similarly, examples like Shakespeare's works (almost all of which are taken from previous stories), Euripides' famous Greek tragedies (which took characters and plots from previously existing tales), OSC's Magic Street (which takes characters directly from Shakespeare), or any of the countless other highly derivative works of published literature illustrate how the same motive is valid in literature. To borrow your own question, how would we have ever gotten these works if it was wrong to write in worlds that you did not originally think up? How does the argument you just applied to music not also work for derivative fiction?
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: You are a fan of Ender's Game. You like classical music. So you want to express your fan-ness through classical music. Is that not what you are doing? But if someone is a fan of EG, but likes writing instead of classical music, you then think it is selfish of them to express their fan-ness through writing fanfics?
The motivation is the same.
How does the argument you just applied to music not also work for derivative fiction?
I see where your driving so I'll tell you why I think there's a big difference.
I don't want to express my fanness first of all. If this were to be a fan-symphony, then I hope for all the world that I would have the dignity and grace to not write it. It would be an original work, inspired by EG. You have to first imagine that the symphony would be thematically inspired by EG, not textually translated. It wouldn't try to expand on the original work, but simply react to it, so that if it were done successfully it would live outside of the original.
The idea about the dramatic symphony that I am trying to convey is that a symphony exists in its own world, where the rules are very much unique to the tastes of the composer. It reacts to a program, but it DOESN'T live inside of that program.
A fanfic novel uses the same form as the work which inspires it, but unlike a symphony which borrows from or comments on another symphony, a fanfic tries to be a part of the world from another novel. I think of it this way: If I were to write a sci-fi novel, then I would be using the same FORM as EG, but I would be constructing my own reality. If I were to write a symphony I would be using the same FORM as Beethoven's 9th, or Brahms 1st, or maybe Mahlers 5th (the size/style of symphonies change too), but I would be writing my own symphony, with my own personal rules. I rather think doing a fanfic would be like bellying up to a bar that's already full and trying to get a place. You'd be forever jostling and bumping and pushing elbows just to make room for your SELF to stand.
Every symphony is unique, and all the best ones are as different from each other as their composers were, living in different times and countries, speaking different languages. All exist in a broad form, but all are really very different.
By writing a fanfic novel I believe you attempt to mimick the form, the style and the voice of the original all at once. This is not only a dishonest betrayal of the author's "turf," but it also hinders the creative process, bolstering the weaknesses of your work with the accomplishments of another by simple virtue of being about the same people or place.
Though I appreciate the seeming paradox between being ok with a symphony and not ok with a novel, I hope that at least gives you an idea of why I think its a different ball game. By introducing a subject or an image or a character into a NEW setting, even a new MEDIUM, the work is no longer a "fanfic," it no longer lives under the umbrella of another work.
That's why Shakespeare's plays are now considered to all be "original works," because in fact the Bard so transformed and so transported the folk stories he used into a new form, that they depended more on his will and his words, and were better and bigger than they ever had been before. I actually think a fanfic writer could do this, but I don't think it has EVER been accomplished before. In that scenario the will of the fanfic writer, and his ideas would be SO powerful, that in fact the story would be transported out of OSC's realm anyway, and would live on the strength of its own foundations. So yes, in a way, there is hope.
The symphony has this effect built in, it is ALREADY worlds apart from a novel, so the material and the ideas and the foundation of the work will not be planted in the creative universe of OSC. A successful symphony depends not at all on the listener's familiarity with the inspiration for it. This is the reason the works of Debussy are so widely popular, because they transcend the paintings and landscapes that inspire them, and they are a perfect blend of romanticism and impressionism, with the strength of the romantic idea, and the vision and (topical) clarity of the impressionist movement.
If I wrote a symphony, suffice it to say, you wouldn't listen to it and know really, that it had so much to do with EG. You could get a special kick out of the references that stand out to the true fan, but it would not live through those moments, it would not be designed to evoke the book for the sake of living through it. In fact I had a similar argument in my class discussion board about my non-textual analysis of Berlioz's RJ symphony. A few people insisted on saying that so and so must be the voice of the maid... etc. I explained that while this played a part in the inspiration process for Berlioz, that reference did not in itself become musically important.
Even Berlioz demured from a full on textuall translation of RJ. Though some scholars have asserted that he wrote music for every word of the text, alas this is quite impossible to prove, and even harder to believe. The themes I describe function in much the same way, they act as place markers for the music, but the music would in the end transcend those labels and serve the purpose of the music.
Edit: I seem to be having a difficult time formulating my view on this into an intelligable form. I would ask you to consider this: a work of inspiration necessarily borrows from the original, without attempting to be a part of or an extension of the original. If you wrote a book or play with the same basic story as EG, but your own ideas and your own WILL shone strongly through it as the most important part of it, that would be fine with me.
That's the main problem as I see it, fanfic, by its very name, attempts to NOT be good literature. To actively try and be part of a world you don't have a stake in, created by another who's ideas you don't share or necessarily understand, is cheating to me. Its buying a ticket to the game and expecting to be called on to play. Does that make ANY more sense than everything else i've said? Well, its difficult to express and difficult to keep in my own head often times.
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No, I thought you expressded it quite well. I agree there is a difference in something written as fanfic and something written as "inspired by," and I don't see a problem differentiating the two.
I just don't hold the same views of fanfic as you do. You seem fixated on the dishonesty of writing in someone else's universe, but that happens every time someone writes for a TV show, or participates in a theme anthology, or writes a book for a licensed property. Same thing, only in those instances the work is approved and paid for by the creator. Fanfic is unpaid, but in some cases approved. How do you feel about the hundreds of Star Trek books, Star Wars books, Buffy books, John Gardner's James Bond books, etc? How about OSC's Foundation short story, or his Iron Man comic? If you feel they are equally dishonest, fair enough, at least that's consistent. I'm just curious.
Fanfic is buying a ticket to the game and then going home and playing it yourself with friends.
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I've read plenty of Harry Potter fanfiction that doesn't retain the style, voice, or form of the original author. To do that, I'm afraid, they would have to sadly underdevelop some really interesting-sounding characters, use the same plot devices repeatedly in story after story, and have Harry be a consistenly boneheaded nitwit when it comes to just about any important decision he is forced to or chooses to make.
Plenty of Harry Potter fanfiction surpasses the original, in my estimation, because I think that while Rowling has created a fantastic IDEA for a world and characters, she doesn't always seem to know how to use it. That's really neither here nor there in terms of this conversation, but you can write fanfiction that doesn't try to mimic everything that the author originally did.
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As a majorly obsessive trekker in my early teen years, I did have a few years in which I read those Star Trek books for fun. One thing I do remember is that the best ones had the characters from the show as side elements, while they developed new characters of their own. I don't know why now, those writers didn't want to simply do away with the ST formulas and write their own universe, but I suppose the ideas really weren't developed enough for that yet. A few of the books I thought were really VERY good. "Star Trek: Federation" is one I remember as being very original, in that it delt with ST history, alot of exposition, and passage of time. It developed new characters who were interesting.
I suppose the dishonesty I would be most worried about would be an fanfic that tried to live inside of the original work. I am imagining something that would basically violate all good taste and common sense just to weave together loose strands of plot into neat packages with sugar coating. This kind of fan-fantasy actually started to happen with Star Trek in the series' when later producers and writers just kept going back and rewriting the old stories, but placing their new characters in as part of the plot. How many episodes had the crew of some new show going to participate in the events from some old show, by going back in time or something? Too many, IMO, and the convenience and plot contrivances put me off.
My assertion is that if you don't violate any rules of good taste or common sense, and if you develop your own interesting characters and plots, then what exactly is the EG universe DOING for you? Its one of those things: if you need training wheels then you shouldn't be riding too far from home. But if you ARE riding your bike to school, then pop those training wheels off and ride for real.
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Fair enough. That's a much less absolute position than you've held previously here, and one I'ved got no problem accepting (if not entirely adopting).
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Some previously created characters can be so much FUN to play around with. And to read about in new things -- I absolutely adore the character Remus Lupin NOW, after reading tons of fanfiction with his character in it....though I didn't really think about him much while reading Prisoner of Azkaban. The things he's done in books since the 3rd mean a lot more to me now that I have a clearer picture of what the character could be like.
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: Fair enough. That's a much less absolute position than you've held previously here, and one I'ved got no problem accepting (if not entirely adopting).
Well I still feel the same way about 98 percent of fanfic. If you want to talk about the 2 percent that has the potential of being something good, then my last comment covers that, and I STILL think it isn't worth writing most of the time. A limitation on the limited exceptions to a very broad personal belief, seems like a consiliatory gesture, but I still feel the same way Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: Some previously created characters can be so much FUN to play around with.
Well sometimes I think it would be fun to put roofies in people's drinks and have my way with them. Then my moral framework tells me that this desire has nothing to do with fun, and everything to do with my inward sexual aggression expressing itself through my desire to dominate. I would NEVER do this, but like most people I have at least imagined doing it, and thought about what that might be like. I can admit I've thought about it because i know it isn't in me to do. Disgusting, but true. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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That's probably the most insulting comparison you could possibly have made. Are you trying to be nasty, or do you really not understand the difference?
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Its the clearest comparison I can make. I can see why you think its insulting, but it isn't intended to be. I do understand the very obvious difference, which I ask you to ignore for the sake of understanding why I would draw on such a harsh analogy.
Obviously rape and fanfic aren't morally equivelant, at all. But there are parallels in the intent which I wished to highlight. Sorry if you feel I'm a bit over the top- I am Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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"A bit over the top"? You're so far over the line, the line is a dot to you.
A story is not a person. It does not have rights of its own. Not to existence, not to inviolability.
If an author is ok with people writing fanfic using their characters/world, how DARE you compare that to rape?
I get that you have a strong opinion on fanfic. And I respect that. However, I do not respect the way you keep expressing that opinion.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: "A bit over the top"? You're so far over the line, the line is a dot to you.
If an author is ok with people writing fanfic using their characters/world, how DARE you compare that to rape?
Its called persuasive writing, its called imagery, its called argument. I dare to use that comparison because it is a powerful one, and an unusual one to employ. And guess what? It makes you think about why I would say such a thing... either that or it makes you scream frantically about how dare I express my opinions. That doesn't make me a rapist; there is no subject that is so sacred that no one is allowed to evoke it. Sorry. But that's life.
By the way, the "line is a dot to you," never makes any sense to me. Its funny I guess, but when you think about it for a minute, it doesn't work.
If you have this line in space that stretches on forever in two directions, and you cross over it and start moving along, then the line will recede from you, but it will always be a line, because no matter how far over you are, the line is still infinitely long. Maybe your thinking of a really short line, but you would call that a "line segment" not a LINE. A line stretches on forever in two directions, this is the meaning of the word in basic geometry, as far as I can recall from the 10th grade. So I guess the line is still a line to me, no matter where I am.
Edit: For more on the use of the word "rape" in a symbolic or literary context, we did do a thread on that recently called "Militant feminism?" I think Rivka participated in that one too right?
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quote:Its called persuasive writing, its called imagery, its called argument.
Definitely not persuasive.
quote: I dare to use that comparison because it is a powerful one, and an unusual one to employ.
Nah, there's a class of internet users that make such lopsided comparisons all the time. You're not unique or special in comparing writing fanfiction to rape. Lots of folks engage in this kind of hyperbole, and for the same reasons you give: "Hey, made you think about it, didn't I..."
All you've accomplished with this is that NOW we're going to talk about how stupid your comparison is, and whether or not you're a troll.
It is a deeply stupid comparison. "I want to feel powerful by dominating your body," does not in anyway arrive/correlate/mingle/parallel "OMG! I <3 HP! I totally wrote this fanfic all about how Luna and Neville fall in love and fight Snape!"
And your behavior on this thread has not been community building.
Wouldn't it just be easier to say, "GAH! You're right, it's a completely inappropriate comparison. I'm sorry, I should have used something else," instead of trying to defend it?
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quote:"I want to feel powerful by dominating your body," does not in anyway arrive/correlate/mingle/parallel "OMG! I <3 HP! I totally wrote this fanfic all about how Luna and Neville fall in love and fight Snape!"
quote:By the way, the "line is a dot to you," never makes any sense to me. Its funny I guess, but when you think about it for a minute, it doesn't work.
If you have this line in space that stretches on forever in two directions, and you cross over it and start moving along, then the line will recede from you, but it will always be a line, because no matter how far over you are, the line is still infinitely long. Maybe your thinking of a really short line, but you would call that a "line segment" not a LINE. A line stretches on forever in two directions, this is the meaning of the word in basic geometry, as far as I can recall from the 10th grade. [Confused] So I guess the line is still a line to me, no matter where I am.
The reason is because you are limiting yourself to 1, possibly 2 dimensions. If we assume up/down is y and left/right is x, and z is into/out of the moniter, then I can draw an an infinite line on the z axis and you will see it as a dot.
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A point is 1 dimensional and a line is 2 dimensional. If you look at the point in either 2 or 3 dimensions, it will always appear as a point. Now if you look at a line in 2 dimensions, you can only see it as a line. In 3 dimensions, you can see the line as either a line if you are looking at it from the side or as a point if you look at it head on.
All you've accomplished with this is that NOW we're going to talk about how stupid your comparison is, and whether or not you're a troll.
Or maybe.. GASP, I actually mean it. Of course if somebody uses hyperbole, he's only doing it to upset people, not to actually communicate something. If you don't want to talk about it, we don't have to, but you don't get to interpret my intentions.
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Giving you the widest possible room for doubt, I'm guessing your point is that someone's creations are as personal to them as their own bodily integrity and that writing fanfic is similar to violating that integrity without permission.
If that's true, I get your point. Got it several pages back, in fact. Still don't agree with it.
I don't know why now, those writers didn't want to simply do away with the ST formulas and write their own universe, but I suppose the ideas really weren't developed enough for that yet.
Because - and this is something you seem to be unable to grasp - sometimes fanfic isn't because the writers aren't good enough to write their own works, or because their ideas aren't developed enough, or because they want to do the creators one better, but because they love that universe and want to play in it.
But instead of acknowledging that you don't understand that desire -- a perfectly natural thing, I personally haven't the faintest idea why people like the Bronte sisters -- you deny its existence instead, despite opinions of actual fanfic writers to the contrary. This leaves, as you can imagine, little to discuss.
On the plus side, this has motivated me to write more fanfic Ought to be a column in this, too...
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By the by, Chris your most recent chapter of your Firefly FANFICTION ( ) was excellent. Is there really only going to be one more chapter? Cause that's not cool Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: On the plus side, this has motivated me to write more fanfic
Hooray! (And I say that as someone who has no interest in the universe you write fic in. I just approve of good fanfic being written. )
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What I find interesting is that in some ways, almost all writing in certain fields amounts to a fan-fiction of sorts. Comic book writing for example. Over 200 writers for example have written spiderman stories, and when a new writer takes on the mantle of one of the many spidey titles he generates new tales with old characters much in the same way fanfic writers do. The only differences are 1) they are paid 2)they are more skilled (theoretically but not always) 3)the stories written are considered 'canon'.
Likewise episodes of TV series by writers doing a single ep. Is this not the same kind of storytelling. If you wrote an ep of Star Trek The Next Gen or something, the world was not yours, the characters were not yours but you could use these characters to create a new story.
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Oops, I just read through more of the previous posts and realised Chris made the same point I just did. Sorry for the redundancy.
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: But instead of acknowledging that you don't understand that desire -- a perfectly natural thing, I personally haven't the faintest idea why people like the Bronte sisters -- you deny its existence instead, despite opinions of actual fanfic writers to the contrary. This leaves, as you can imagine, little to discuss.
Why DO people like the Brontes? I never understood that. Their books have got to be the most tiresome and tedious dronings on about ordinary life that I've ever been forced to read. We got a cheese on friday, but then no cheese till tuesday, then we had a slice of bread, then a cheese then cheese AND bread, then the Anglican minister told us no more cheese, then we ate some bread, and wept for a while, then my friend died, and then I wrote a letter, and then I ate some cheese.... ugh.
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She's already removed her author's site and replaced with a statement saying it will be off Amazon by the 24th. I think it's already off B&N and other online booksellers.
More on this and the ensuing outrage (mostly by other fan writers) here:
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I expected scorn from other fanfic writers -- and it's well deserved -- but it bothers me that the controversy may encourage people to buy any of the silly things before Amazon pulls it. I hope Amazon was smart enough to cancel any and all orders made. Otherwise, that blogger covered pretty much every sarcastic point I would have made about this "professional editor."
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My characters are my creations, so I get to tell other people what they do and don't do. In effect, I already "know" every story that they've ever had, or will ever have.
If another author writes fanfic about my characters, they're telling a lie. My characters didn't do what your story tells. You may wish that they did, but they didn't. Or if they did, they didn't do it the way you're telling it, because they do things the way I tell it.
So I can completely understand authors who don't want to support fanfic, because they're protecting their characters and their worlds from false rumors and lies.
A lie, no matter how well meaning, is still a lie.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Why DO people like the Brontes? I never understood that. Their books have got to be the most tiresome and tedious dronings on about ordinary life that I've ever been forced to read. We got a cheese on friday, but then no cheese till tuesday, then we had a slice of bread, then a cheese then cheese AND bread, then the Anglican minister told us no more cheese, then we ate some bread, and wept for a while, then my friend died, and then I wrote a letter, and then I ate some cheese.... ugh.
You know, I loved Jane Eyre. And that bit you did was the funniest riff on that book I've seen. All you forgot was the porridge and the burnt porridge.
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How could I have forgotten the burnt porridge, or the terrifying superiority of Miss Ingram, who is oh so proper, and terribly good looking, and better than Jane at breathing, because she inhales with the just the correct posture, bringing the air into her lungs in the most even way imaginable...oh how I wish and pray to God and to the secret crazy person on the second floor, that this story of my life wasn't so BORING.... Oh well, I think I'll write a letter, and maybe have a cheese.
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quote:I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that whether or not you're trying to make a profit is secondary in copyright issues. Whenever you make something available for public consumption, it potentially dilutes the ability of the copyright holder to make money from their ideas whether or not you are trying to make money on it.
My memories of what OSC said about why he would sue the pants off anyone who tried to publish EG stories were along the lines that they are stealing his daily bread.
An author or artist creates characters and makes them appealing and people fall in love with them and they are paying the author/artist for that service (to partake of something delightful). Snoopy, Garfield, Calvin and Hobbes. It really irks me that the most common Calvin and Hobbes image I see is a hacked version of Calvin doing something that the real author never would have published. I wish some lawyer would sue everyone who had one of those stickers on their car.
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Along the same lines. Photographers can not sell images of Harley Davidson motorcycles without HD's permission. Buildings are even trademarked. Once someone decides to make a buck, all of a sudden you enter the world of idea theft.
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I, personally, would do grievous bodily harm to the person who first started selling bogus Calvin car stickers, as that was one of the major reasons behind Bill Waterson's decision to quit doing the strip. He was notorious for his dislike of any and all legitimate merchandising of his products, much less this crap.
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Cb, I don't think it had as much to do with the fact of those stickers, as the attitude they were a symptom of. He quit the strip, IMO because he felt that it wasn't being recieved well, and he didn't know if he could continue to provide the same quality product given the powers that controlled his work. He was notorious for his long fights with papers all over the country to get them to print his comics in just such a way, so that they would appear as he intended them, unfettered by editing. this was why his format for sundays changed to a single large matte with cells inside a larger canvas, so there was no chance to edit them at the individual newspapers. He lost a lot of subscribers who wouldn't or couldn't meet his demands for his work to appear in the proper colors, at the original size, unnedited, and I think his commitment to standards wore him down alot.
Human: isn't that ridiculous? BTW how is it possible to stop someone from selling say, and artistic rendering of a Harley? Isn't it a work of art? I think we still do have that pesky 1st ammendment to protect that sort of thing.
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Ought to be a column in this, too...
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