posted
Chris, Star Trek contradicts itself in different episodes. Star Trek and Canon do not go together.
And Mr. Port, while Don Quixote and Sancho have weathered the vile fanfic writers, Senor Cervante's was greatly inconvienced by them. Fortunes were made off of Don Quixote--pirated versions, and fan fic authors. Very little was made by Cervante's himself.
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quote:Actually, when I say "writer," I mean someone who consistently writes and consistently submits what he writes for publication, for pay.
In that case, what are you saying beyond "People who don't publish (or try to) don't think that publishing is as important as people who do publish (or try to)."?
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Mark Twain was also severely inconvenienced by pirated copies, and he worked hard to stop them.
But that's not the point here. Fan fiction these days tends to pump up interest in the original. It can't be published so it's difficult to confuse with the "real thing," and it keeps fans interested. Star Trek was kept alive by fan fiction and self-published 'zines that turned into conventions and ultimately into original books, more movies, and new shows. The X-Files was helped in its first few struggling years by a surge of online fan fiction (because the thought of Mulder and Scully together, or Mulder and Krychek, was just too irresistable). And then there's Firefly...
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posted
I do not read or write fanfaction unless I am given assurances it is very good. I do not mind people writing in worlds, and using characters- when I first started to write I borrowed elements like there was no tomorrow. I was inspired, that's okay.
But I agree whole-heartledly with what C.B. said:
quote:There's the problem with fanfic: the lack of guidance. Too many fanfics are written by untalented writers, and far too many are Mary Jane stories where the writer obviously and painfully writes him- or herself in as an incredibly beautiful and talented character that solves all the problems while the cast falls in love with him/her. I'm also not fond of most slash fiction, where the writer seems determined to get the most unlikely cast members togther and slippery.
I think it's fine to investigate already colourful worlds and put yourself in them- It's like daydreaming on paper- I just don't read it (or write it) because it compromises my own view of the imaginary world as presented in the 'canon'. Besides I have my own worlds .
I do like a faithful, story-contained fanfiction, although unless someone strongly recommended, I wouldn't read a layman's work. A lot of 'real' published work is fanfiction of a sort- all those re-examinationations of Shakespeare plays, King Arthur stories, Bible stories (OSC so writes bible fanfiction, 'scuse the 'fiction')... it's all fanfiction, just very, very, very well done. Stories are there to be retold.
The only 'fanfiction' I have written included real people (actors), as in the use of the kind of mythology of the actor as percieved by the average teenage girl (my friends) for comic effect. The setting was the Oscars and both my friends and the actors in question were the characters. I have to say that for the audience it was written for, I still find them pretty amusing.
Oh, I've also rewritten Bible stories because it's so much fun.
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posted
I, personally, don't like fanfic and never have. To me it is the equivilant of stealing. The author worked very hard to put together a complex universe where he/she could tell a story that (hopefully) enthralls the reader. This isn't an easy thing to do. And then someone else doesn't want to go through all of that work and steals that universe so they can write their own story in it.
If there is a story that you want to hear that occured in another persons universe, you should either have their permission to use it, or tell the story orally. I've thought of some great stories that could have happened in between Earth Fall and Earth Born but I'm not going to write them and share them with people because they aren't my stories to tell.
People here have mentioned that OSC doesn't approve of fanfic, but even he says that there are occasions where the rule can be broken. He did write "The Originist" for Foundation's Friends and Asimov fanfic book.
I am of a similar viewpoint. If the author of the original universe asks you, or if his constituatns ask you, and you feel that it is appropriate for the situation, fanfic can be a great thing. But to just use it to tell any story that pops into anybodies head is pointless. Because it isn't their story, and it didn't "happen." If you really want to tell this story and to you it would be best in another writer's universe, too bad. Why not do a little bit more work than just thinking of a story and come up with world to write it in too. It could even be a very similar world, with very similar characters, so long as you are not coopting someone else's world and characters and in essence stealing what they worked very hard on.
In short, if an author gives permission for people to write fanfic, that's great, but I won't read it. If the author does not give permission, then don't do it.
Edit to add: Basing a novel on a religious or historic record is not fanfiction. ie: The Women of Genesis is not biblical fanfiction and The Alvin Maker series is not history book fanfiction.
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posted
In short, if an author gives permission for people to write fanfic, that's great, but I won't read it. If the author does not give permission, then don't do it.
Fair enough, although I'd change the "giving permission" to "if the author doesn't tell you not to." YMMV.
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posted
The Women of Genesis is not biblical fanfiction.
Why not? He wrote deeply interpretive stories based on existing worlds and characters who have clearly affected him deeply, stories that fleshed out relationships and events that weren't covered in depth in the original.
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posted
Hey, while we're at it, let's call the Homecoming and Alvin Maker series Mormon fanfic.
Nope, he didn't use Mormon characters, instead he based his stories on Mormon stories. Those would be literary allusions.
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posted
The only difference between fanfic and literary or biblical allusion is that the latter has a publisher. It's not a measure of quality: 95% of everything is crap, published or not. It's not a measure of originality: show me an entirely original work and I'll show you an author who's never had any contact with any other living creature (goodness knows how anybody learned how to translate her stuff). One's amateur, one's professional. If you think that implies that one is inherently better than the other, that's your hangup, not anybody else's.
Incidentally, I find the "babysitting" argument ironic, in light of the fact that OSC's "Ultimate Iron Man" is being hyped on the front page of this site.
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"Basing a novel on a religious or historic record is not fanfiction."
I agree with this, though I think both types of fictive reinterpretation are equivalent in that they do not spring, fully formed, from a fount of profoundly original creative genius.
That is, the difference between re-imagining Beowulf and re-imagining Star Wars is a legal/financial one.
posted
When I was quite young, I read Stuart Little. I was annoyed at the ending, which was somewhat of a cliffhanger. Did Stuart ever find Margalo? My principal (another student and I were reading with her as part of an enrichment program) suggested that I write what happened next.
I didn't. I wanted to know what "really" happened. But I think this is one of the reasons why people write fanfiction. They want to know what happens next, even if they have to make it up themselves. Sometimes people might fill in parts of the story that are missing. This especially makes sense when the world in question is from a television show and the format limits how much of the story can be told. Stargate in particular tends to cut things off a bit abruptly, in my opinion. Why not have a story that ties up some of the loose ends, or imagines the emotional aftermath of a potentially traumatic event that happens to the characters?
And for something like the Firefly universe, fanfiction makes a lot of sense. The series was cut short, and the stories haven't all been told yet. People are hungry for more, and right now the only place they can get what they want is in the stories created by fans.
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Official canon: Straight from the mouth of the creator/writer/director. This is how it is. May include works that fans don't accept as true, such as Star Wars I, II and III and Star Trek 1, 3, 5, etc.
Official non-canon: Licensed by the creator, but not considered binding by the creator for his or her own future plots. Examples would include original novels of licensed properties (Star Trek, Star Wars, Buffy, etc), comic book series based on the worlds of licensed properties, etc.
Unofficial canon: Material that was not authorized, but has become accepted into canon by the creators. One classic example is Sulu's first name, which was dubbed "Hikaru" by fan fiction writers and decades later made official in "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country."
Fanon: Material (including fan fiction) that has not been accepted by the creators but has been overwhelmingly accepted by the fan base. Often these are explanations or missing scenes that fix problems or discrepencies left in the original canon. This can also include once-official material but was later discredited, such as the Star Trek Roleplaying Game published by FASA between 1982 and 1989 that was considered canon when it was published but was later contradicted up one side and down the other by the movies and later shows.
Fan-fiction: Material written by fans that is not considered canonical by either the creator or the fans themselves.
posted
My above comment addresses the stories themselves, but I should also say a word about the cultural models underlying the traditional and fanfic communities.
On the one side you've got people invested in the idea that Writers, with a capital W, create original works in isolation. These works are solely their brainchildren, and they ought to retain all possible rights thereof.
On the other, you've got a large network of people collaborating on a shared world larger than any one of them. This network often includes beta readers offering workshopping help before an installment is posted to the larger public, in addition to reader feedback providing critiques. Stories can piggyback off one another. In this model, the question of "ownership" is more or less immaterial; increased creative output is good for all.
Without getting into the question of whether one model is better than the other, this does account for people on either side not understanding where those on the other are coming from. (This is not entirely a matter of party line; Rowling and Whedon, for example, clearly get the latter point of view.)
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posted
If you're a writer, here's why fanfiction is bad.
1) Because later the fanfic kids can say you "stole" their ideas (see an earlier comment about Star Trek in this very thread).
2) A bunch of other reasons mainly having to do with a feeling (and a fact) of ownership over your own characters and your own ideas.
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posted
I would argue that those reasons are why fanfiction "can be" bad.
1) How often has this happened, after four decades of fan fiction? 2) What about creators who have publicly said they didn't care?
(I should also stress that I don't want to force anyone to accept fan fiction, I'm only trying to illustrate why I not only don't have a problem with it but in fact prefer some of it to "official" material.)
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: More importantly, it is not true that what an author writes about characters he invented is "real" and what other authors write about those characters is not "real". It is the reader that has the authority to determine which stories are accepted as "real", not the author. Shakespeare's depiction of Puck is not inherently more or less real than OSC's in Magic Street, despite the fact that Shakespeare created the character and OSC borrowed him from Shakespeare. Rather, it is up to you as the reader to decide whether to accept one or both as real. If you think Shakespeare's work is better, and that OSC's work ruins the characters, then it is within your authority as a reader to decide that Shakespeare's are more real to you. And if you find OSC's more realistic and Shakespeare's unrealistic, you are free to consider Shakespeare's to be false even though it came first. That is where the authority lies in determining what belongs in the canon of "real" stories about a particular character or world - it lies with the reader, not the author.
This is not a little narcisistic Tres. Please don't take that as an overt criticism, because a part of everybody feels what you wrote, however it is the expression of an extreme narcisism IMSO.
I think your expressing a desire to own and control the characters you love, which is fine, but it is like the parent that thinks loving their children means making their children do what they think is best ALL the time. Its like living vicariously through someone else's accomplishments, someone else's life. In a way you are expressing a desire to supercede OSC or any other author and control the lives of the characters because you think you love them, and know what is best for them, but I think it is more a desire to assert yourself and your ideas in a way that feels more valid.
It isn't though, because it really ISN'T real. It isn't as much an expression of a story or the furthering of a character, but an extension of your self-image onto someone else. These characters exist as a part of a story that comes from another person, and they are unique and defined according to that person's feelings and desires and goals. For you to barge in on that and try to use Michaelangelo's hands to make your own sculptures, it won't be real, it will only seem real. What it will really be is your attempt to control and own the characters you love, and I think that is basically wrong-headed.
Please don't take this as a personal attack, because I have all the same instincts; I write this because it applies to some of the things I want too. We all want control over the elements of our lives, but that control is hard-won, and rarely worth the damage that is so often wrought. The chances are a person or a character is better left to their own course, without our "help."
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posted
The consequences of 1) would be... what? The fanficer has no legal rights to the characters or universe or what have you, and they know that going into it. I have heard of fanfic writers jump all over other fanfic writers who have taken someone else's story and done a rub-out (where they just change the names and claim a story as their own) but never the original creator.
*shrug* Treason reads like superficially altered Foundation fanfic (with, obviously, a muchhigher level of skill than is commonly believed to exist in fanfic, mind you).
Wasn't there a suit concerning the first Battlestar Galactica being a clone of Star Wars? But even that is back now. I do NOT get what the fuss is about.
I don't think anybody would ever mistake a fanfic character for 'the real thing' and the original writers do not lose revenue.
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quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: On the one side you've got people invested in the idea that Writers, with a capital W, create original works in isolation. These works are solely their brainchildren, and they ought to retain all possible rights thereof.
I don't think there is anyone who believes that. Its a million shades of grey between copyright infringement and vague inspiration. No writer doesn't want to pay homage, or imitate, or expand on what he likes from another's work. This isn't stealing often because the intent is not to OWN the other's work but to acknowledge it and create something that will complement it without asserting supremacy.
classic/romantic and modern music for expample would be a different world entirely if composers believed that each idea was somehow the sole property of the person who says it first. Composers endlessly quote eachother, mirror, borrow, and complement in their own works. This is different from taking Beethoven's ninth and trying to write Beethoven's 10th, this really WOULD be character murder. However there is nothing wrong at all with Mahler writing Mahler's 9th, and having it be in view of Beethoven. Its still Mahler, it doesn't try to be Beethoven, it tries to be Mahler.
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posted
When I was in middle school I wrote a bunch of fan fiction stories based on TV shows, movies, and my favorite novels. Let's face it the Lord of the Rings was just begging to have a teenage girl character with a magical talking horse show up and kick some orc butt.
I don't think I would have ever written an original word if it hadn't been for starting off "improving" other people's stories. Eventually I got bored being constrained to other people's ideas and worlds. So I invented my own. I never showed my fan fiction to anyone. It actually never occurred to me that somebody else would want to read it. This was pre-widespread home computers and internet, though. I've never read any fan fiction; honestly, I don't have time to read any "author" fiction as it is.
As long as the fan fiction writer doesn't try to earn money from the work (except by writing one of those licensed series books), I can't see the real harm in it. On the other hand, if I were going to write fan fiction today, I would absolutely do so only for the worlds of writers who have said they don't care (or who are dead and can't say one way or the other--this means you, Tolkien). Since I'm a fan of Mr. Card's work, I couldn't see myself starting up an "Ender" story knowing that he would not approve of the use of his ideas.
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quote:Originally posted by Olivet: But if Beethoven didn't write it, it isn't Beethoven's anything, even if it copies his work.
I'm just translating meaning of characters in a story to be equivelant with the character of a composer in his music, since the music doesn't always have its own named characters. Basically trying to write beethoven's 10th is like trying to write an ender novel, but signing it yourself.
Its like what Brahms was accused of doing in his first symphony: Beethoven's 10th, by Brahms. (Not exactly accused, but jeered at)
edit: that sounds unclear. Bramhs no.1 in c-minor has no official name other than the op number. But it was later called "beethoven's 10th" in satire.
further edit: it is only -sorta- like that, since brahms was actually afraid of this happenning, and he obviously didn't call it beethovens 10th
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posted
Stasia, I'm with you. I've written fanfic (on a dare) and still do sometimes as warm up exercise, like those 100 words or less challenges. It was Star Wars, which has been a part of my creative life since I was eight years old. I see it as a hobby, or, as I said, a warm-up.
I've never had the desire to meddle with already-written fiction, other than a desire to scratch redundant phrases out of pulp novels. (You could turn any Laurell K. Hammilton novel into a drinking game... muahahah)
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quote:Wasn't there a suit concerning the first Battlestar Galactica being a clone of Star Wars?
Yes. They turned around and sued Star Wars for being a clone of Buck Rogers.
More accurately, the suit clamed that BSG copied/stole something like 40 specific and unique things from Star Wars. The next suit claimed that SW copied/stole a bunch of things from Buck Rogers.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I cannot imagine why anyone would write an Ender novel. O_O
That said, I'm sure nobody would confuse Chris' Bridges' Firefly (Is it gonna be a full novel-sized thing?) story with something Joss Whedon wrote because... it will have Chris' name on it, and disclaimers, etc. And Joss has moved on, anyway.
"that sounds unclear. Bramhs no.1 in c-minor has no official name other than the op number. But it was later called "beethoven's 10th" in satire. "
If he was mocked for it, this supports the idea that immitating hurts the original creator... how?
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posted
But fanfiction writers aren't (to my knowledge) trying to pass themselves off as the creators of the work. Many of them even carry disclaimers to that effect. A more equivalent comparison would be if Brahms took one of Beethoven's works, fiddled with it to see what he could do, and then played it for friends as just that.
There's a lot more malicious intent being levied here at fanfiction writers than I think is warranted. It's overwhelmingly written out of love for the work and the creator.
Now if a creator has explicitly asked that people not write fan fiction in his or her world (such as, I believe, Terry Pratchett has) than it would be disrespectful not to comply.
(Is it gonna be a full novel-sized thing?)
Nah, more like an episode length once I'm through, and no one would ever confuse it with a "real" show. In fact, it's an homage to one of the classic Trek fan fictions. LinkPosts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I have completed my list of the best Harry Potter fanfic I've read. I just sent it off to Olivet. If anyone else is interested in it, just let me know.
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posted
Blacwolve, I know I've asked before - and didn't follow up with my email address... but do you think you could send me the same links you sent Olivet? My email's in my profile - jharr AT depauw.edu And Chris - where did you hear about Steven Brust writing a piece on Firefly? That's so, so... awesome, I'm not sure the world can handle it.
To add something of use to the thread, I think I'm seeing three main arguments against fanfiction:
Aesthetic: fanfic messes up my view of the canon universe, or it's just badly written
Reply: if you don't find something artistically pleasing, there's no need for you to read it - but there's no reason for you to deny others it.
Moral: fanfic is in some way "stealing" from the original creator, and stealing is wrong. Or the person writing fanfic is somehow damaged (morally, creatively, whatever) by the act of writing the fanfic.
Reply: If the author has granted permission for the universe to be used in fanfiction, then it can't be considered stealing. And to the second - I think it's extremely difficult to support the idea that writing fanfic is damaging to a writer in some way - I can think of examples where it could be quite beneficial, and some have already been mentioned on this thread. And, even should we grant that writing fanfiction damages one in some way, that doesn't imply that anyone has the right to stop someone from writing it - if we could do that, then the vast majority of t.v. shows would be cut too. :-)
Legal: it's against the law to infringe on copywrite, and that's what fanfic does/is.
Reply: most fanfiction writers gain absolutely no income from their writing. It's difficult to make the case that they injure the original creator in some way... and, of course, some authors have granted permission for their universes to be used in fanfic
Did I miss any? Looking at the different arguments against fanfiction, I can't see any that seem to hold up well, if we assume the orginal creator has given either explict or tacit permission for fanfiction to be written in his universe.
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posted
Contribution as a writer: By wasting your time writing stories in other artists' worlds, you are depriving yourself and everybody else of the the original worlds and stories you could be creating.
Reply: So you think that somebody else's time could be better spent in a different activity. What does that matter? Practically everybody spends time doing something that others would consider a waste. Pretty much by definition, hobbies are not productive ways to spend time.
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Pocket Books had a deal to publish two original Serenity novels in 2006 (this was before the movie underperformed and Whedon got busy with other projects). I know that about a dozen writers, including Keith R. A. DeCandido (who did the movie novelization) submitted plots, and Brust went ahead and wrote one.
At the moment the books are dead in the water -- reportedly waiting for Whedon to approve or disapprove the suggested plots, although I don't know that for sure -- and Brust has read the first few chapters of his book at a convention or two now.
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quote:Cassandra Claire (of the LOTR Secret Diaries fame) has a series of Draco-centered HP fanfic. Haven't read it yet but I plan to just based on the diaries.
Chris, Cassandra's three stories (really, it's something like an epic) in the Draco Trilogy are *fantastic,* right up there tied at first with my favorite Buffy Fanfiction, called 100 Years of Solitude. Anyhow, if you like the Secret Diaries, or if you just like well-written funny yet dramatic stuff, that's the best!
blacwolve, i'd be tickled for that list of Harry Potter fanfic, if you had a sec to email it my way! Email's in my profile.
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posted
I've only read one fanfic piece, called A Dark, Distored Mirror which was an alternate universe Babylon 5 fanfic. It had some really interesting ideas and I thoroughly enjoyed it, in spite of the writing.
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posted
That would be...just disturbing, PC. Father and son? (Perhaps you meant David/Jonathan.)
Most of this stuff I've never actually written, but I have a strange tendency to see connections between works by utterly different authors (say, Joss Whedon and Isaac Asimov). I suppose in theory one could create new, similar characters and write the story about them, but that actually seems more dishonest--the "real" characters are still there underneath.
More practically, I've been hoping that fanfic will restimulate me as an author. I haven't successfully written anything longer than a hatrack post in several years, and I'm not sure why.
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posted
Yeah, David/Solomon would be all kinds of wrong, being father and son and all. David/Saul would be rather more interesting. (David/Jonathan, on the other hand, has been done to death.)
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quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I have completed my list of the best Harry Potter fanfic I've read. I just sent it off to Olivet. If anyone else is interested in it, just let me know.
Me! mememememe!
Please.
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: Yeah, David/Solomon would be all kinds of wrong, being father and son and all. David/Saul would be rather more interesting.
Because father-in-law/son-in-law is so much less squicky? O_o
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posted
There's actually quite a bit of incest in most of the fandoms I've read. And quasi incest. Buffy/Giles disturbs me just as much as Sirius/Regulus.
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posted
I would also be happy to e-mail off a few recommendations for those looking to dip their toes in without trawling through the morass that is fanfic.net -- Harry Potter, Buffy, and X-men stuff, mostly.
I see nothing wrong with writing fanfiction where the original author has indicated acceptance or indifference to the notion. I am disinclined to write fanfic of works whose original author is hostile to fanfiction, because by and large if I like their work I have some respect for them as a person, and I don't like knowingly upsetting people whom I respect, but I have difficulty working out how they have a logical leg on which to stand. (I am particularly baffled by Robin McKinley's position that fanfiction is not real writting, given that somewhere around half of her books are retellings of other people's stories.)
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Robin McKinley doesn't like it? I knew Robin Hobb didn't, but not Robin McKinley. It doesn't really matter, I stay firmly in the Harry Potter fandom, I'm just surprised.
Also, I'd be interest in your Harry Potter fanfics. And also if you know of any Willow/Oz/Tara fics, that would be really awesome.
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posted
Yeah, McKinley's one of the writers who's asked to be excluded from fanfiction.net; I remember reading her explanation of why, but I can't find it now.
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