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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Orson Scott Card has closed mind. (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Orson Scott Card has closed mind.
Laurenz0
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Has anybody ever realized how all of OSC's heroes follow pretty closely to his own belief system?

All of Orson Scott Cards heroes are religious in some way shape or form.

Even Ender was a catholic by the end of children for the mind and that seems to me to be quite contradictory to when we saw him before.

All of Orson Scott Card heroes value marriage from a very young Age. Peter, Petra, Wang-mu, Miro.
Its not very realistic unless you're a mormon.
Petra was a rebel. She is still very young in Shadow puppets (17?) and nothing really happened to change her value system. She would of course believe in love of which she had a great deal for bean, but I highly doubt marriage would have ben welcome. I know from experiance.

I'm guessing that most of the people on this site are teenagers so you can probably all agree that you're not thinking about marriage. I'm not saying that love doesn't exist as a teenager because I know first hand it does, but merriage is not an important goal no matter how moral or mature you are.

Its a shame that he cannot branch out and make people of differant value systems heroes.

Don't get me wrong, I love his books, he is my favourite author, but its just food for thought.

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Laurenz0
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Ugh, me caveman. The topic was supposed to be Orson Scott Card has a closed mind.
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TomDavidson
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*laugh* Actually, Ender is clearly a Catholic in name only -- and OSC is about as non-Catholic as you can get while remaining a conservative Christian. [Smile]

It's certainly true that OSC doesn't generally write characters that disdain or are completely disinterested in marriage; even though your own experience is obviously somewhat limited to the Ender Saga, I'll help you out and mention that MOST of the heroes of his ongoing series eventually get hitched. I suspect, though, that this isn't evidence of quite as "closed" a mind as you'd think; you may as well say that most fantasy authors have closed minds, since most of their novels tend to recurringly feature people who use swords. [Smile]

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pooka
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There's a popular saying about parachutes being like the mind, it only works when it's open. But looking realistically at parachutes, if they were stored open they'd get shredded and they can't be open when you are jumping out of the plane or you might get hung up and sucked into the engines. Nothing can be open all the time.

And anyway, there's "Lovelock". It was a collaborative effort so I don't know whose idea was what, but it is Card and there's all kinds of open behavior going on. What about all the books I haven't read, like Songmaster and Wyrms? Let's see, there aren't tons of sequels to those... I wonder why. I'm sure they are good books, but it's *possible* people don't become ardently devoted to them because they lack moral bedrock. What do you all think?

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dkw
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I think that not every book needs a sequel. Wyrms and Songmaster are complete stories on their own. And I am "ardently devoted" to both of them. Other than Speaker they are my favorite OSC books.

Edit to add:

How on earth can you make a statement about their lack of moral bedrock when you've never read them?!?

[ June 25, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]

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sndrake
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I guess I'm having a tough time with the premise - not precisely stated - that seems to be if you have characters that consistently have beliefs in some higher power, and some basic set of standards of behavior following from that, you must be close-minded.

Does that make authors who consistently portray characters and future cultures as atheistic/humanistic (in the quasi-religious sense) openminded?

How is one more openminded than the other? Maybe I'm extrapolating too much into this. I apologize if this is the case.

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ae
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Laurenz0:
quote:
I'm not saying that love doesn't exist as a teenager because I know first hand it does, but merriage is not an important goal no matter how moral or mature you are.
Bear in mind that almost all of the geniuses in the Enderverse, including and perhaps especially Petra and Bean, have always been portrayed as far more mature than their years; I'd go so far as to say unrealistically so. This is only a continuation of something that has been in the story all along.

Also, you might want to reconsider speaking for all teenagers when you say that marriage couldn't possibly be considered important at thsi age.

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sndrake
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quote:
OSC is about as non-Catholic as you can get while remaining a conservative Christian.
Hmmm. This statement almost begs for a list of prominent liberal Catholics in response. I'll pass, but at least throw in there are "pro-life" progressives out there, like Daniel Berrigan and his recently deceased brother, Phillip. The Catholic community is pretty diverse politically.
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kaioshin00
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quote:
you have characters that consistently have beliefs in some higher power, and some basic set of standards of behavior following from that, you must be close-minded.

Does that make authors who consistently portray characters and future cultures as atheistic/humanistic (in the quasi-religious sense) openminded?

i dont think is has anything to do wiht the open mindedness of the authors...its just what they want to portray
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sndrake
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quote:
i dont think is has anything to do wiht the open mindedness of the authors...its just what they want to portray
I'll go along with that, my question was really directed at Laurenz0, who started this thread. Again, I could be overinterpreting, but that seems to be where the statement in the first post was leading.
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The Wiggin
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I'm just going to make a point that was made in another thread about OSC being anti-Spanish or some such thing. It is allot easyer for an autor to wright about something he knows. So if he seem close mindeed or what not it's just that it's probly a subject he knows a llot about or has had allot of experance with.
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Slash the Berzerker
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OSC writes the characters he believes in and understands. It has nothing to do with a closed mind.

I am OSC's polar opposite in how I view parenthood and child bearing, and he has never been anything but friendly in the extreme with me.

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Scott R
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of course, you're a six foot tall, axe-wielding lizard man. . .
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tonguetied&twisted
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ae:

quote:
Bear in mind that almost all of the geniuses in the Enderverse, including and perhaps especially Petra and Bean, have always been portrayed as far more mature than their years; I'd go so far as to say unrealistically so. This is only a continuation of something that has been in the story all along.

Also, you might want to reconsider speaking for all teenagers when you say that marriage couldn't possibly be considered important at this age.

Exactly what I was about to say, only to find I'd been beaten to it! [Smile]
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tabithecat
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having just finished Wyrms not more than 10 minutes ago I can say that yes I felt there were some religous overtones but it worked and I see no reason to mess with it. I mean the main characters name is Patience. her father Peace and her friend/advisor/protector is Angel. after a brief eye roll I settled in and never looked back. I don't see a closed mind in that just working with what you know or feel, how can that wrong if there is a happy ending & a strong moral lesson (let's all just get along)
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Laurenz0
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quote:
Also, you might want to reconsider speaking for all teenagers when you say that marriage couldn't possibly be considered important at thsi age.


I phrased that the wrong way, MOST teenagers do not get married when they are teens. It seems that the books have a disproportional amount of people who do.

I am a person who believes in a love but not nessiarly merriage and I know a lot of people feel the same way. Its just a shame that people who have a belief system like that can't really be considered heroes.

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Nick
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quote:
I'm guessing that most of the people on this site are teenagers so you can probably all agree that you're not thinking about marriage.
I'm toward the end of my teenage years. I will be 19 in October. My girlfriend and I have been dating for nearly 3 years and we are considering marriage already. TomDavidson is married. I would say at least 30% of the people who make this community are married or in their early twenties.
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tonguetied&twisted
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quote:
MOST teenagers do not get married when they are teens.
So... most teenagers get married when they AREN'T teenagers? [Razz]

quote:
I am a person who believes in a love but not nessiarly merriage and I know a lot of people feel the same way. Its just a shame that people who have a belief system like that can't really be considered heroes.
Can't they? Some characters (and real people, believe it or not) happen to get married (in their teens, whatever), but it doesn't follow that people who don't, can't be considered heroes.
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tonguetied&twisted
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Oh and I forgot to mention this in my first post.

LaurenzO:
quote:
I'm guessing that most of the people on this site are teenagers so you can probably all agree that you're not thinking about marriage. I'm not saying that love doesn't exist as a teenager because I know first hand it does, but merriage is not an important goal no matter how moral or mature you are.
Just because most people don't get married when they're teenagers doesn't mean that it isn't an important goal for them. I'm not married (I'm 21) but I sure thought about it while I was a teenager, and I know most of my friends did as well. I don't feel qualified to speak for everyone [Razz] but I'd say that many people who consider marriage important didn't just start thinking about it when they turned 20.
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Laurenz0
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So tongue twisted, you and your girlfriend seriously considered marriage?
Of course its thought about, but its very rarely done or even seriously talked about.

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Laurenz0
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Nick, I'm curious now. Where is the community you come from, and what religion are the majority of you? because I know that that number is astromical compared to here (calgary, alberta, canada). Marrying is at such an early age is sort of frowned upon, but don't get me wrong. I think its a great thing, but i just know that i've only heard of one couple getting married so soon. Maybe I live in a box.
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tonguetied&twisted
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(note to LaurenzO: ttat is a GIRL and likes BOYS [Roll Eyes] )

Yes we talked about it. But my point wasn't that teenagers GET married, more that it can still be an important goal to them even if they don't actually get married before they are 20.

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tonguetied&twisted
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Should've just edited my previous post but I clicked on new post and am too lazy to go back, lol. Um, I wouldn't say that getting married as a teenager is "very rare" either. It's not as common as getting married after you turn 20, of course, but roughly 40% of the people I know that are married (but not related to me) got married before they were 20.

Course, I live in New Zealand. I've no idea how old people generally are when they get married in the USA (or wherever you're from). [Wink]

EDIT to add: actually, thinking about it, most of the people I know who are married AND related to me were married before they were 20. My parents and grandparents certainly were. I'm not saying whether it's a good or bad thing, but it's not frowned upon here.

[ June 25, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: tonguetied&twisted ]

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Laurenz0
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(Note to self, add accent and account for gender of the female presuasion when reading tonguetwistedandtied comments)

Well
I retract my statements and recognize the fact I didn't know much about how things worked in new zealand or other places for that matter. People here (and as far as I know, in the U.S. too) usually get married in their mid twenties to thirties and while marriage is a goal of mine, its not a goal I wish to accomplish anytime soon.

I guess I just figured that Orson scott card would be bias since he is a mormon.
Sorry for assuming you were male
And i'm from south western Canada.

[ June 25, 2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]

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Jexxster
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Hmm, based on your last post, could it be that you have a bias towards OSC's belief system that has colored your opinion of his works?

Just a thought. Biases and closed mindedness often go both ways.

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Laurenz0
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Absoloutly, but i'm not biased against mormons, I just know they marry early. And, I retracted my statements about him being biased on the merriage thing, just a bit unrealistic.

[ June 25, 2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]

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Nick
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quote:
Nick, I'm curious now. Where is the community you come from, and what religion are the majority of you? because I know that that number is astromical compared to here (calgary, alberta, canada). Marrying is at such an early age is sort of frowned upon, but don't get me wrong. I think its a great thing, but i just know that i've only heard of one couple getting married so soon. Maybe I live in a box.
[Eek!] Whoa whoa whoa buddy, I didn't say I was planning on marrying anytime soon, I said my girlfriend and I have been talking about it a lot lately, and we're talking about marrying in the future. Definitely not before I'm 22 thought.
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Jettboy
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*Irony Alert*
*Reverse Prejudice Alert*

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Jexxster
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quote:
I just know they marry early.
Gotcha. I have a very well thought out theory as to why that is. If you are ever interested email me and I would be happy to share what I have found out about that. It might make things a bit more clear.
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Jettboy
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Jexxter, in your well thought out theory, that I have no idea what that contains, have you checked it with LDS members? It actually doesn't take a theory to understand why.
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Laurenz0
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Well jexxter, I'd love to email you. But it says either you or the administrators blocked your email adress. So, yeah. I am really interested in those thories. You can email me at laurenz0_perry@hotmail.com
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Jexxster
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Hehe, being one helps me formulate a cogent theory. [Wink]

The reason I mention it is there is an underlying principle that folks miss out on when the jump on the "Mormon's marry young" bandwagon. There is a lot more to it than the idea that lots of people have that it happens because (speaking from a third person perspective here) they are told they should marry early.

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Laurenz0
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quote:
Whoa whoa whoa buddy, I didn't say I was planning on marrying anytime soon, I said my girlfriend and I have been talking about it a lot lately, and we're talking about marrying in the future. Definitely not before I'm 22 thought.
Thats kind of what i'm talking about. Most people wouldn't want to be married at such a young age. I'm thinking especially those free spirits who don't want to be tied down. I think it would be more realistic if people like Peter 2 and Miro didn't get married so early. Far more realistic.
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tonguetied&twisted
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LaurenzO:
quote:
All of Orson Scott Card heroes value marriage from a very young Age.
Just to clarify. I originally took your post to mean that teenagers didn't VALUE marriage or think about it as an important goal. My point was that people who are planning to get married eventually are likely to have it as a goal while they are teenagers, regardless of whether they actually marry before they turn 20 or not. This is probably irrelevant to the discussion, but ah well. [Razz]
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Laurenz0
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yes i can deffinately see how you misunderstood me. In fact, I don't see how anybody couldn't misunderstand me. No I meant that they all seem to say "I want to merry this person."
Which seems to me to be very unrealistic, because I or any of my friends in their teen years would honestly think something like that. Goes to show you how much upbringing affects things like that.

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Jexxster
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Laurenz0, just emailed you.
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Jettboy
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How are we defining "teenager" really? A student in high school or below age 20? Honestly, Mormons don't marry THAT young, except for maybe women where half marry at about age 19.

[ June 25, 2003, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Jettboy ]

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tonguetied&twisted
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I personally am glad I'm not married yet. I know a lot of people older than me who are glad they're not too. But I also know people that were married before they were 20 and wouldn't have it any other way. I guess it depends on when you meet the right person. I don't think it has that much to do with age actually.
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tonguetied&twisted
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Out of interest LaurenzO, how old are you and are you a girl or a guy? If you don't mind my asking! [Smile]
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Laurenz0
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A bit about me:
i'm 15, i'm male and I can't spell.

[ June 26, 2003, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]

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BlainN
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Okay, there are several pieces floating around here, and they have some pretty clear responses.

1. Scott is Mormon. Yes. He's been very open about that, without being pushy about it. He tends to make some Mormons uncomfortable -- he's not a fundamentalist Mormon, although he is strictly faithful afaict.

2. Scott is biased towards his beliefs. Yes. Everyone is biased towards their beliefs. Scott is honest about his biases where they occur.

3. The characters in the Ender's books are unrealistic. Perhaps. This is, after all, fiction. However, you need to keep the premise of the books in mind -- these characters were selected from the billions of people on Earth, comprising the top dozen or so minds of their generation. They are not going to see things the same way that average or normal people would -- they have had neither average nor normal childhoods, something explored openly in the Shadow series, but clearly noted in the first chapters of Ender's Game.

4. Scott's characters favor marriage, for the most part. Yes. Most people in the world do. Something you need to understand about Scott's view of the world is that one of the most important things humans create are communities. This is based in his understanding of Mormon beliefs, but his view is not universal within Mormonism. In communities, individuals have responsibility toward other members of the community -- it is a reciprocal relationship. When people behave irresponsibly, it not only harms them -- it harms the community. Families are very important sub-communities, and marriage is integral to the building of families. I recognize that not everyone shares this belief, as is their right, but many do, and Scott clearly does. You will not see him describing healthy societies that do not value marriage and family. One of the tell-tales of the sickness of the Earth of Ender and Bean is the lack of respect for marriages and families in that world, leading to the horror of Bean's youth in Rotterdam.

5. Petra is interested in marriage at a younger age than average. Yes, for obvious reasons. Bean is going to die. Bean is someone she loves and respects for many reasons -- including that he is the greatest mind of his time, with the greatest heart of his time as well. She knows that she, herself, is one of the greatest minds of the world, and that their children, as a result of this, could preserve those genetic advantages for later generations. This puts the urgency into the situation that pushes them to marry young -- so Bean will have a chance to be a father to his children, to their benefit and to his.

Now, personally, even though I am a Mormon also, I do not recommend that people marry young, because I have done it, and I have seen it done, and the results are frequently bad. I tend to think 30 is a good age to get married, but find 25 to freak other Mormons out less when I promote it. In this case, I can't challenge the decision to marry young because of the circumstances.

Scott's characters are rarely all that "normal" -- they tend to be heroic, intentionally. If you want heroic characters who believe as you believe, then write them. But consider exactly how fair it is to accuse Scott of being closed minded simply for having different beliefs and not hiding them? Open mindedness would seem to require considering if he has a valid point in what he's saying/doing, rather than requiring him to toe the line of the party you have chosen.

[ June 26, 2003, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: BlainN ]

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tonguetied&twisted
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BlainN, I agree with most if not all of your argument. I kinda got somewhat off topic with the whole marriage thing, lol.

Are you new or is it just a new user name? If you ARE new, welcome to Hatrack! [Big Grin]

Helpful hint: people tend to call Orson Scott Card, "Card" as opposed to "Scott". [Smile]

Wow. I can be helpful. Amazing!! Well, I'm amazed...

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BlainN
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Thanks for the welcome. I've not been on this system much for a long time, but I was on Hatrack back when dinosaurs walked the Earth and AOL was cool. I've been calling him "Scott" since then, and I'm not likely to call him much of anything else unless he asks me to (although I have been known to use OSC, but it's easier to say/type "Scott").

For more info on Scott's heroes, Michael Collings' book In the Image of God is the book on the subject. Scott says that Michael finds things in his writing that he doesn't know are there when he writes them (but they are).

Take care,
Blain

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tonguetied&twisted
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*blush* Sorry. It took me a couple of seconds to register who you were talking about when you said Scott, that's the only reason I mentioned it. (That just makes me sound stupid... *sigh*)

(note to self: helpful hints aren't always helpful) [Roll Eyes]

Welcome back, then. [Big Grin]

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BlainN
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It's not a problem. I hadn't realized he wasn't commonly referred to by "Scott," so that was helpful.

And thanks for the welcome again. I think I'm going to like it around here.

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Laurenz0
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quote:
5. Petra is interested in marriage at a younger age than average. Yes, for obvious reasons. Bean is going to die. Bean is someone she loves and respects for many reasons -- including that he is the greatest mind of his time, with the greatest heart of his time as well. She knows that she, herself, is one of the greatest minds of the world, and that their children, as a result of this, could preserve those genetic advantages for later generations. This puts the urgency into the situation that pushes them to marry young -- so Bean will have a chance to be a father to his children, to their benefit and to his
While I agree with you that it makes sense for Petra to get married, chances are it would not have been welcome. I know several Rebels and even dated one. The "system" is something they try to put down as much as they can. And marriage as a teenager would be nothing short of laughable. I saw nothing really happen to Petra that would have made her change her mind.

My guess is OSC couldn't have found a hero out of her if she hadn't wanted to get married.

[ June 26, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]

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Synesthesia
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This is something I have observed in all of the stories I have read by him.
Most of the characters marry, even if the marriages seem a little too illogical and sudden to me, take Ender and Novina (sp) for example. I hate that pairing so much. To me it seemed like they barely knew each other and suddenly they are getting married.
Most of his stable characters get married. Most of the unstable characters stay single.
Mainly what I dislike is how he portrays gay people. There were several reasons why I could not finish the latest Bean book.
First of all, I hate when a story is driven by folks doing something they know is not very wise. The case of trusting that guy not to steal their embryos for example.
But the main reason is that speech the doctor made. What is up with that? Why should he, who is gay, have to get married to a woman if he does not swing that way? That only leads to misery for the person who is gay, all of the kids and the person they marry!
More later.

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Laurenz0
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I lost the book, so for all I know you could be right, But I don't think think he is gay. Just not interested in sex. Maybe I missed something. Perhaps you should check your sources. I'm kinda curious now.

[ June 26, 2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]

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Amka
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Blaine,

I'd like to comment on your age of 30. I, myself, don't think that is a good age. There are two reasons. One, if you are a woman there are several ages at which fertility statistically reduces. The first of these ages is around 27, and then in your early 30s, maybe even around 30. Statistically, fertility goes down even more at those ages if no children have been born by those times.

My second reason is psychological. There is a kind of 'firming' in your identity in your late 20s that makes it more difficult, rather than easier, to mesh together.

So yeah, 25 is actually better than 30.

The age at which we were ready to marry is different for everyone.

[ June 26, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]

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Synesthesia
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He was definitely gay. He said something about his "proclivities". That whole web of life thing annoyed me so much for some reason I am trying to figure out.
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